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Warm Fermented Lager Thread

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seatazzz

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I've done both warm- and cold-fermented lagers, and I really can't tell the difference (other than the cold-fermented batches take longer to finish). Gonna keep doing them warm unless the power goes out. Sipping on one right now that was done on expired (8/2018) S23, and no off-flavors whatsoever. Pitched the slurry into a fresh-hopped WF lager this morning that took off in 4 hours. I've used both 34/70 and S23, and the S23 lasts for more generations than the 34/70 in my opinion, before throwing fruity esters. I ferment at 66 (in a ferment fridge) and crash once it's done for about 3 days, then keg and let it sit another week; unless the pipeline is low and I need it on tap.
 

brewbama

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I've done both warm- and cold-fermented lagers, and I really can't tell the difference (other than the cold-fermented batches take longer to finish). Gonna keep doing them warm unless the power goes out. Sipping on one right now that was done on expired (8/2018) S23, and no off-flavors whatsoever. Pitched the slurry into a fresh-hopped WF lager this morning that took off in 4 hours. I've used both 34/70 and S23, and the S23 lasts for more generations than the 34/70 in my opinion, before throwing fruity esters. I ferment at 66 (in a ferment fridge) and crash once it's done for about 3 days, then keg and let it sit another week; unless the pipeline is low and I need it on tap.
Interesting. I think that’s the first experience I’ve read of -23 doing well warm.
 

Northern_Brewer

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Just as a FWIW I was talking to a Bevie guy at the weekend and when he saw me looking at a pack of M54 he volunteered that it was "top-fermenting" and when I asked him "So that means it's cerevisiae" he said "yes". Now we know they haven't always been completely on top of that kind of thing, but if you accept that and that all MJ yeasts are repacks of something else then it narrows down the options of what it could - K-97 maybe?
[pinging @dmtaylor ]
 

dmtaylor

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Just as a FWIW I was talking to a Bevie guy at the weekend and when he saw me looking at a pack of M54 he volunteered that it was "top-fermenting" and when I asked him "So that means it's cerevisiae" he said "yes". Now we know they haven't always been completely on top of that kind of thing, but if you accept that and that all MJ yeasts are repacks of something else then it narrows down the options of what it could - K-97 maybe?
[pinging @dmtaylor ]
As a general rule, I do not trust anything that MJ's people say -- they don't make the yeast so all their information is second-hand, things get lost in translation, etc. However... hmm... Since K-97 has always been known to be (and still is) a Sacch cerevisiae strain, then the above hypothesis only makes the most sense IF: (1) K-97 is in fact the same as Brewferm "Lager", (2) Brewferm "Lager" actually never really was a pastorianus strain (as I heard someplace), (3) the original source for M54 was Brewferm "Lager", and (4) for whatever reason they decided that this strain would be good for "Californian Lager" -- perhaps it has always been known to perform well at higher than normal lager temps?

If I were a betting man, I'd bet you've struck gold on this, and that the 4 conditions above are likely true. More data would be helpful to confirm.

Thanks!
 

Northern_Brewer

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As a general rule, I do not trust anything that MJ's people say -- they don't make the yeast so all their information is second-hand, things get lost in translation, etc.
I know what you mean - but given that it was at BrewCon UK it's possible he was from the original SPL yeast business so would be closer to the detail than some of their marketing team. And it was just weird - he had no idea who I was other than some random homebrewer looking at a "lager" yeast, why would the first thing you say about it be that it was top-fermenting? It would be an odd thing to BS about.

I'd missed that there was a connection between M54 and Brewferm lager, where did we get that from? Mind you there would be some logic in it, certainly Brewferm lager is known for dropping well which seems to be a feature of M54, and the naming involves less creativity than say Notty becoming M42 New World...

Krescanková et al (2015) were convinced that Brewferm lager is a cerevisiae (see table 3) Sadly they tried to construct family trees using rather messy RAPDs that aren't particularly helpful (US-05 next to Windsor etc). But they're definite about the cerevisiae thing.

I notice that both Brewferm lager and K-97 have claimed attenuation of 81% (at least K-97 does in the 2017 datasheet but the 2019 version says 80-84%), but K-97 doesn't drop as well?
 

seatazzz

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Interesting. I think that’s the first experience I’ve read of -23 doing well warm.
I've been using it for over a year, only issue I've had is if I go over 4 generations; even then I just get some fruity esters out of it. Gives a nice lager bite and ferments fast & clean.
 

dmtaylor

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I'd missed that there was a connection between M54 and Brewferm lager, where did we get that from?
You mean K-97 and Brewferm? I'd heard long ago that Brewferm was in fact cerevisiae, maybe from @suregork? So I think we were just trying to find a good guess as to where to make it fit. I hadn't considered Brewferm might also be M54 until you mentioned today that it's cerevisiae.

Thanks for your other information, including flocculation characteristics. I myself haven't used any of these dried strains yet so I have no means yet of comparison. What I do know is that IF 1007 is the same, I know that one has a harder time dropping but eventually does, similar to other German ale strains like 2565.

I thought M54 was Mauri Lager 497
That's a rumor I'd heard as well. It must be one or the other... and maybe even both!?

Cheers all.
 

Bohern

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Did you biab that? Also curious about boil length, thanks. Looks great.
nope, I did it on my 3 vessel herms and did a 60 min boil with a 75 min mash plus a mash out fly sparge.

EDIT: also thanks for your help / suggestion on making the sulphur smell go away.
 
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Northern_Brewer

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I hadn't considered Brewferm might also be M54 until you mentioned today that it's cerevisiae.
Just thinking about it, Brewferm has been around a while so it's not going to be some new-to-dry strain like New England, and it won't be from a new supplier. And making yeast is not Brouwland's main business, so it would be likely that they're repacking. It's certainly suggestive that the three Brewferm yeasts are :

Top - "Fast fermentation with low residual sugar. Formation of fruity esters. Flocculation: medium to high Final gravity: low Fermentation temperature: 18-25°C"

Lager "A sturdy lager yeast, delivering a consistent neutral fermentation with little or no sulphur components or other undesirable by-products.Flocculation: high Final gravity: medium Fermentation temperature: 10-15°C"

Blanche "selected for its formation of typical wheat beer aromas. Very suitable for production of witbier, wheat beers, etc. Flocculation: low Final gravity: low Fermentation temperature: 18-24°C"

and Mauri has three main yeasts :
English Ale 514 "Mauribrew Ale can ferment from 15°C up to 32°C. Desirable flavour characters result with this strain through the 16-24°C temperature range...rapidly attenuates fermentable sugars with typical wort falling from a gravity of 1040-1045 resulting in a beer of less than 1008...generally very good settling properties even at warmer ambient temperatures 20-30°C."

Lager 497 "Saccharomyces cerevisiae Bottom Fermenting Lager Brewing Yeast...Desirable flavour characters result with this strain through the 10-16°C temperature range...OG 1040-1045 is fermented normally to low final gravity....very good natural settling properties and results in a green beer of good clarity and compacted yeast deposit" (note that a "yeast for brewing lager" is not necessarily a "lager yeast"!)

Weiss 1433 "produces large quantities of fermentation aromas (esters, higher alcohols) that contribute to the complexity of German-style wheat beers...Desirable flavour characters result with this strain through the 15-30°C temperature range...OG 1040-1045 is fermented normally to low final gravity...Good settling properties at cool temperatures."

Overall it looks a pretty close correlation, particularly for that warmth-loving, fast-fermenting, high-attenuation English Ale. And the way that Mauri have withdrawn from the UK market, at least, in recent years might suggest that they feel they have alternative representation in place via someone like Brouwland?

And obviously given the antipodean connections, Mauri would be an obvious source of yeast for NZ-based MJ. When you see M21 Belgian Wit described as "A traditional top-fermenting yeast that has a good balance between fruity esters and warming spice phenolics. The yeast will leave some sweetness and will drop bright if left long enough...For best results, ferment at 18-25 degrees C...high attenuation" that sounds vaguely familiar, no?

And I always thought M15 Empire Ale was a bit of a weird name, but could perhaps be explained if it had been in the Antipodes since colonial times - attenuation might be a bit low though?

So if you're looking for a high-attenuation, well-floccing yeast for making warm lager, that could be M54, then Mauri 497 must be a contender. Which would mean that WLP810 and 2112 are perhaps less interesting for warm lager than we thought (but surely worth a go), and that Brewferm Lager is definitely worth a try even if it is an ale yeast? Another advantage is that is widely available (at least in the UK) and dirt cheap (particularly from Geterbrewed - no affiliation).

OTOH, I'm not sure about the K-97 link to Mauri 497 - Mauri are sophisticated enough not to need to repack stuff, and I suspect the flocculation is too different (although admittedly it is one of the more variable aspects of yeast biology). But it would be fun if 497 or M54 turned out to be very close to WLP036 - those Mixed group yeasts tend to be interesting from a biotransformation point of view.
 

Genuine

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Beautiful beer. What yeast? How does it taste?
I used 34/70 and it's one of my favorite Oktoberfest's so far. The only thing I would change, and it's not yeast related, is the water chemistry. I used higher chlorides to amp up the malt and it sure did. I'll go back to a simple water profile and maybe 50ppm of sulfates to up the crispness.
 

Bohern

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I just brewed the Helles again this time using 34/70 @ 65* - have any of ya'll experienced any issues at this temp? Any tips you want to share?
 
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Chetbrews

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Planned on brewing a hefeweizen but my Wyeast pouch didn't activate so I pitched a dry packet of S-189 lager yeast instead. 50/50 mix of Rahr 2 row and White wheat. Did a 30 minute mash and 30 minute boil. one hop addition of Sterling hops at the start of the boil. Did no chill for this batch of beer and fermented in a corny keg in my basement with no temp control (ambient temps between 64-66 degrees). The beer was in the primary fermenting keg for 16 days. Did one day of crash chilling and then transferred to serving keg with gelatin a day later. Beer ended at 4.5% ABV. This beer is terrific! It's soft on the palate, very light and tastes like a lager. Pretty pleased with how it turned out.
 

Bohern

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Question for you guys.

Using 34/70 on average how long has it taken to ferment and clean up by products usin these higher temps? I am fermenting mine @ 66*

I know the saying it is done when is done, but wanted to see what some have experienced, please share.

Thanks,
B
 

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Never used 34/70, but with lager yeast in my experience things go quick when you go warm. I push to 68°F when the airlock "levels out" in the fermenter, which is usually after 5 or 6 days. I then leave it there for another 3 or 4 days and then cold crash and all that.
 

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I agree, it is pretty much like ale fermentation. Unless you used mj California lager at ale pitching rates, then it might take a month. But doesn't have to.
 

Miraculix

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I know this will be the unpopular opinion here, but did you guys know that you can cold ferment lager and have it ready as soon if not sooner, than the warm ferment, and have it not come out tasting like an ale?
You might want to read the thread before posting.
 

ncbrewer

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I agree, it is pretty much like ale fermentation. Unless you used mj California lager at ale pitching rates, then it might take a month. But doesn't have to.
Do you have more trouble with MJ54 than with other lager yeasts in this respect?
 

Miraculix

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Do you have more trouble with MJ54 than with other lager yeasts in this respect?
It's the only yeast that does not want to finish, that I used so far. Mj said that you have to pitch at lager rates to avoid this, haven't tried this but could be true.
 

brewbama

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It's the only yeast that does not want to finish, that I used so far. Mj said that you have to pitch at lager rates to avoid this, haven't tried this but could be true.
I pitch two packs in 5.5 gal. I’ve been very happy with the results. My next brew will use MJ Cal Comm
 

Bohern

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I have two questions for you guys.

1 - Have any of you noticed any flavors to your beer from the yeast, not off flavors but the yeast adding a flavor of any type?

2 - Fermenting warm, what is your pitch temp for using 37/70 and the ramp up if any?
 
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applescrap

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Sry didnt get to your question. And you are welcome, much appreciated. In answering the question about yeast I had some interesting ideas. The quick answer is yes pitch dry yeast directly. If rehydrated it will imo start fermenting faster, which has its advantages, but pitching direct is fine. I only pitch directly.

What is most important is to consider yeast temp in relation to beer temp. This is key. Iirc I heard John Palmer discuss pitching colder and letting rise. This I believe would be ideal. Shocking the yeast makes for a stinkier, less clean fermentation imo once again. But this yeast can surly stink it up. 65 is fine. I dont like helles and came to realize any malty lagers. But I do like dunkel and bock. Look forward to seeing your new batch.
I just brewed the Helles again this time using 34/70 @ 65* - have any of ya'll experienced any issues at this temp? Any tips you want to share?
 
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applescrap

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Sounds pretty cool. I certainly want to hear more about it. Could you start a thread maybe called quick cold ferment process or something like that. I would be very interested in how to go grain to glass in 7 days starting cold (7 being quickest case scenario). Seeing how this is the warm fermented lager thread feels a little weird to jump into that here, but many curious purists would probably really like that info too. Anyways thanks for sharing, pretty cool to have a post by you here.
I know this will be the unpopular opinion here, but did you guys know that you can cold ferment lager and have it ready as soon if not sooner, than the warm ferment, and have it not come out tasting like an ale?
 

brewbama

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I have two questions for you guys.

1 - Have any of you noticed any flavors to your beer from the yeast, not off flavors but the yeast adding a flavor of any type?

2 - Fermenting warm, what is your pitch temp for using 37/70 and the ramp up if any?
1. Not with 34/70. Just clean beer. I’ve read others have but I haven’t.

2. I pitch at 60*F. I have used 62*F also. I do not ramp up.
 

dmtaylor

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I have two questions for you guys.

1 - Have any of you noticed any flavors to your beer from the yeast, not off flavors but the yeast adding a flavor of any type?

2 - Fermenting warm, what is your pitch temp for using 37/70 and the ramp up if any?
1) YES. Yeast itself adds bready and sour notes to the beer until it settles out more. It can also add a metallic meaty liver flavor. And after it dies, it can add a burnt match-head flavor.

2) I won't use W-34/70 warm anymore. Or maybe not even cold. Better yeasts are out there. Try others.
 

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0CDA311D-B688-4621-915A-C98429BA8E33.jpeg What a difference a couple weeks makes. This was a fail as a warm fermented lager and as a pressure fermented lager but after a few weeks of cold conditioning it’s tasting really good. It’s not crystal clear but considering that I used no finings it isn’t too bad.
 

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Christmas Eve doppelbock. Using S-189. It is sitting at 64 degrees now and started bubbling a bit 4 hours after pitching.
upload_2019-12-24_19-54-41.jpeg
 

Saunassa

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The closet I ferment in averages 59-61f this time of year. I have two packs of 34/70 on hand. Would direct pitching 2 of these into a hopefully malty lager work well or should I use something else? I would be bottle conditioning and not kegging.
 

InspectorJon

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The closet I ferment in averages 59-61f this time of year. I have two packs of 34/70 on hand. Would direct pitching 2 of these into a hopefully malty lager work well or should I use something else? I would be bottle conditioning and not kegging.
If you read back through this thread you will find 34/70 is the one of, if not the favorite at these temperatures. Certainly the most used. That it is the best is not a universally held opinion but many have been happy with it. The only way for you to know for yourself is to try it.
 

seatazzz

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I might be going back to 34/70 for my WF lagers; the last one I did with S-23 turned out fine, but not the flavor profile I've been getting with my "house" lager (bittered with comet, late additions of crystal). Both the husband and I are getting a mild "skunk" in the nose, and I swear this stuff tastes like Heineken on steroids. It was fermented at 66 in my ferment fridge with a heat lamp, but covered with a black t-shirt to avoid getting lightstruck. Not getting any of the usual mild sweet flavor from the crystal, just a nice bitterness and that weird "green bottle" flavor that isn't unpleasant, just not what I was going for. Has the "bite" of a good lager as well. Yeast will do what they're gonna do.
 

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I used a small batch San Francisco Lager fermented at 62-64f, 60f ambient. Some nice soft fruit esters at first, but flavors seemed to disappear over time in the keg. It became a pretty clean, unremarkable lager.

Will be doing more lagers with this saved yeast for the winter, but thinking of warmer living area fermentations to try to capture more flavor.
 
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