Uh oh. Wild yeast? Infection?

[foscojo]

I brewed on Saturday. 5.5 gallons of wort into fermenter at about 5pm. I sent my temp controller to 100F because I cooled it too far and needed to get the temp back up for the Lallemand Voss kviek I am using. But then a family emergency came up before I could pitch the yeast. I just got home on Monday 9am and checked on my fermenter.

I found a pretty high krausen, lots of bubble activity, and debris in the blowoff tubing.

Does that sound like it picked up a wild yeast that took off? Or maybe some kind of infection?

I went ahead and pitched a whole packet of Lallemand Voss kviek (at actual temp of 92F) and shook it. But I am afraid I am too late.

Thoughts?

 

[homebeerbrewer]

I still can't get used to people fermenting at that high of temp. But, to each their own. I do know that there are bacteria that love that temp, so maybe you got something in there. Maybe the yeast you pitched will knock it out, but if it had a head start, probably not. Let it ride and see what happens.

 

[foscojo]

I still can't get used to people fermenting at that high of temp. But, to each their own. I do know that there are bacteria that love that temp, so maybe you got something in there. Maybe the yeast you pitched will knock it out, but if it had a head start, probably not. Let it ride and see what happens.

Yeah, it's my first time with kviek so I went with the manufacturer's recommendation.

 

[Miraculix]

My guess is somewhere some residuals led to a brewer's yeast "infection".

The problem is, that almost every "normal" yeast will give you strong off flavours or unwanted by-products like fusel alcohols at this temperature. So my guess is, if it wasn't infected by another kveik yeast, then the beer will taste either really bad or it gives you a strong headache the next day.

 

[Miraculix]

Yeah, it's my first time with kviek so I went with the manufacturer's recommendation.

That's actually perfect, did that many times, works like a charm.

 

[foscojo]

I do know that there are bacteria that love that temp, so maybe you got something in there.

Could a bacteria create krausen and strong airlock activity in 24-36 hours?

 

[homebeerbrewer]

I’m not a microbiologist, so I’m not sure what the reactions could be. It does sound like it might be yeast, but like I said, let it ride and see what it does. Check the gravity when the krausen falls, if it’s close to what your target is, it may be a yeast strain. If not, it could be a bacteria. I don’t think there are any bacteria that are very alcohol tolerant. But then again, I’m not a microbiologist.

 

[homebeerbrewer]

Thinking about my last reply, what was your OG? Lactobacillus is mildly alcohol tolerant, maybe 3-4%. I’m not sure if it would produce krausen or much CO2, but it is a possibility that it got into your wort. It’s ideal temp is right around 100F too.

 

[foscojo]

Thinking about my last reply, what was your OG? Lactobacillus is mildly alcohol tolerant, maybe 3-4%. I’m not sure if it would produce krausen or much CO2, but it is a possibility that it got into your wort. It’s ideal temp is right around 100F too.

OG was about 1.071

 

[homebeerbrewer]

Ok, so it should crap out around 1.045 if it was just lactobacillus. But you pitched the yeast, so it may go much lower. Lactobacillus makes the environment very acidic, so they’d be fighting each other. I’m not familiar with kviek yeast ph tolerances so it’s a toss up on who wins. If lactobacillus is the culprit, it’s gonna be a sour beer, no matter who wins.

 

[Stormcrow]

Hope all goes well, but have to say this is kinda exciting. Any pictures?

 

[foscojo]

Hope all goes well, but have to say this is kinda exciting. Any pictures?

I'll try to get one tomorrow.

 

[Miraculix]

Ok, so it should crap out around 1.045 if it was just lactobacillus. But you pitched the yeast, so it may go much lower. Lactobacillus makes the environment very acidic, so they’d be fighting each other. I’m not familiar with kviek yeast ph tolerances so it’s a toss up on who wins. If lactobacillus is the culprit, it’s gonna be a sour beer, no matter who wins.

Many people do sours with kveik, so that wouldn't be a problem.

 

[VikeMan]

If the krausen and blowoff were due to any Lactobacillus sp., it would to the best of my knowledge be the first time that has happened. Some Lactobacillus sp. do (or can) produce some CO2, but not that much.

 

[foscojo]

Many people do sours with kveik, so that wouldn't be a problem.

It would be for me. I can't stand sours. Blecch.

 

[Beermeister32]

It’s anyone’s guess what might be growing in your wort/beer at this point.

On the other hand, they used to inoculate wort in big coolship pans exposing it to open windows and air overnight to get resident / native / wild yeasts into the wort.

A lot of wild yeasts don’t taste that great I’ve heard. The tasty strains are isolated in labs. A lot of wild yeasts throw off weird off flavors. Then you have the bacteria or mold. Who the heck knows what you’ve created. Maybe good. Maybe a batch of poison.

I say dump it!

 

[Jayjay1976]

How hoppy was the recipe? Doesn't take much to inhibit a lot of the undesirable things from growing. My guess would be that your equipment was "contaminated" with beer yeast from previous batches, and you have just created a 5 gallon starter. There could be off flavors present due to underpitching, but it also could turn out just fine.

On a side note, when I end up with a bit of extra wort at the end of brew day, I'll leave it sit out in an open jar and let it do it's thing for a couple of days, then taste the result. Usually obviously sour but sometimes they taste really good.

Actually, one of the best tasting brews to ever come out of my garage was a gravity sample forgotten on a shelf for a couple of days. It smelled great, lightly sour but clean. I poured it into a small glass and enjoyed it immensely.

 

[foscojo]

I say dump it!

At this point, what's done is done. Might as well ride it out. Worst case I have to drain-pour 50-ish bottles in a few weeks in honor of my poor wallet.

 

[Jayjay1976]

At this point, what's done is done. Might as well ride it out. Worst case I have to drain-pour 50-ish bottles in a few weeks in honor of my poor wallet.

Is it already bottled?

 

[Miraculix]

How hoppy was the recipe? Doesn't take much to inhibit a lot of the undesirable things from growing. My guess would be that your equipment was "contaminated" with beer yeast from previous batches, and you have just created a 5 gallon starter. There could be off flavors present due to underpitching, but it also could turn out just fine.

On a side note, when I end up with a bit of extra wort at the end of brew day, I'll leave it sit out in an open jar and let it do it's thing for a couple of days, then taste the result. Usually obviously sour but sometimes they taste really good.

Actually, one of the best tasting brews to ever come out of my garage was a gravity sample forgotten on a shelf for a couple of days. It smelled great, lightly sour but clean. I poured it into a small glass and enjoyed it immensely.

Under normal circumstances, I would agree. But look at the temperature!

I also think that it was probably another brewer's yeast here, but at that temp... The result will be pure headache. Unless it's another kveik.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Under normal circumstances, I would agree. But look at the temperature!

I also think that it was probably another brewer's yeast here, but at that temp... The result will be pure headache. Unless it's another kveik.

Yeah I missed your post above, good point.

 

[Beermeister32]

Best practices folks. You could have produced a batch of paralysis causing botulism. If there was just a 5% chance of death would you drink it? Don’t risk it, go dump it and brew a replacement batch. Live to brew another day!

 

[foscojo]

Is it already bottled?

Not yet. Just brewed it last Saturday. But the yeast is kicking it. Too late to go back now.

 

[Garrett_McT]

Best practices folks. You could have produced a batch of paralysis causing botulism. If there was just a 5% chance of death would you drink it? Don’t risk it, go dump it and brew a replacement batch. Live to brew another day!

Why scare people. I know nothing about microbiology either, but at least from the beginning of my home brewing people have told me and I have heard on podcasts that bad pathogens for humans cannot grow in beer wort. I am not trying to advise people to pursue their eminent death, take caution where caution is needed. But from reading Wikipedia Clostridium botulinum is an anaerobic bacteria, he has top fermenting bacteria (aerobic, whether yeast or bacteria) because of the krausen. Plus the listed pathology of the Clostridium botulinum on Wikipedia doesn’t seem to include a wort type scenario.

 

[Beermeister32]

Not scaring people, just trying to talk some sense here. I'm not a microbiologist, and I don't have a degree in organic chemistry. Does not sound like the OP does either. So, since we are amateurs, we have to err on the side of caution. Despite people saying it is probably safe (anecdotally it might be), it also might NOT be. We all live in different parts of the word with different situations and different pathogens, mold, bacteria all waiting their turn to do us in. The only way to tell for sure is to send it out to a lab for a costly test. So, I say ERR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION, and dump it.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I'm not a microbiologist, and I don't have a degree in organic chemistry.

Yeah but, there are several users here who do have those qualifications, and I've never seen anything like what you're suggesting coming out of them.

And dude, stop ordering people to dump beers based on your own irrational fears and paranoia.

 

[Cammanron]

Best practices folks. You could have produced a batch of paralysis causing botulism. If there was just a 5% chance of death would you drink it? Don’t risk it, go dump it and brew a replacement batch. Live to brew another day!

I was under the impression that brewing will not produce any pathogenic organisms, regardless of procedure.

 

[Mr. Vern]

I have witnessed my boil pot fermenting with krausen in <24 hours after a late brew day (Leftover gallon of wort in dead space). It smelled great and was sitting on 1# of citra so that probably helped prevent bacterial funk. I regretted dumping it after I smelled how great it was laying on the ground.

Were you brewing outside? I have taken to extra precautions when brewing outdoors to cover the BK at flameout. Given how fast the wild yeast went to the above I have been extra vigilant once temps drop below 180F.

I am also in the No-Sour club. maybe we can start our own version of "No Ma'am" ...
National Organization of Mashers Against Acrid Microbes !!

... Ill see myself out.

 

[foscojo]

I have witnessed my boil pot fermenting with krausen in <24 hours after a late brew day (Leftover gallon of wort in dead space). It smelled great and was sitting on 1# of citra so that probably helped prevent bacterial funk. I regretted dumping it after I smelled how great it was laying on the ground.

Were you brewing outside? I have taken to extra precautions when brewing outdoors to cover the BK at flameout. Given how fast the wild yeast went to the above I have been extra vigilant once temps drop below 180F.

I am also in the No-Sour club. maybe we can start our own version of "No Ma'am" ...
National Organization of Mashers Against Acrid Microbes !!

... Ill see myself out.

Yes, outside. I put the lid on immediately at flameout and only removed it to stir around the chiller a few times and the whirlpool.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Yes, outside. I put the lid on immediately at flameout and only removed it to stir around the chiller a few times and the whirlpool.

Did you by any chance lay the spoon on the grass between stirrings?

 

[cmac62]

I bet there was some diasticus strain lingering around your fermenter, let us know how it tastes and go from there.

 

[Cammanron]

I bet there was some diasticus strain lingering around your fermenter, let us know how it tastes and go from there.

I concur…. Let it ferment out and condition, and then taste it. If it tastes bad, all you’ve lost is some more time and effort. BUT, you could end up with a very tasty “happy accident”

 

[Beermeister32]

Yeah but, there are several users here who do have those qualifications, and I've never seen anything like what you're suggesting coming out of them.

And dude, stop ordering people to dump beers based on your own irrational fears and paranoia.

I'm not ordering anybody.. "dude"... The OP asked for our thoughts. My kid is an MD, would you like me to get a professional opinion why you shouldn't drink a bunch of wort that's been mysteriously fermenting or spoiling over the weekend by itself at 100F degrees?

Use best practices... you are speaking to a lot of people worldwide on this forum with varying levels of skill, education, training, experience. You tell them all to drink this stuff and some will get sick.

 

[Garrett_McT]

I'm not ordering anybody.. "dude"... The OP asked for our thoughts. My kid is an MD, would you like me to get a professional opinion why you shouldn't drink a bunch of wort that's been mysteriously fermenting or spoiling over the weekend by itself at 100F degrees?

Use best practices... you are speaking to a lot of people worldwide on this forum with varying levels of skill, education, training, experience. You tell them all to drink this stuff and some will get sick.

Honestly I forgot the 100 degree fermentation temp. That is an oddly high temp. Some weird things might be happening. But there are however a handful of professional craft breweries in my area, and many throughout history dating back to pre-hopped beers, who do wild fermentation. It is a very hard task to accomplish, but it can be done. Personally I would honestly stick to preselected lab grown bacteria cultures until I can get a microscope.

I would be interested in and MD opinion. Any bit helps!

sorry I didn’t mean to cause any discourse, it’s just that wild fermentation is a very real thing.

 

[homebeerbrewer]

Ok, I googled to see what temp C. botulinum thrives at, and yes, 100F is within the range. However, the acidity of the wort would be close to the tolerance level. Then there are other factors in brewing that I don't think a quick google search will tell me. Hops being one of them. Potentially, the alcohol level at this point being another. Also, I don't know how long it takes for C. botulinum to produce toxins, but what I've read, it mostly happens when something isn't properly canned and has been stored for some amount of time. The wort in question is fresh, so I don't think that it's had time to produce toxins.

 

[ba-brewer]

@foscojo, what kind of fermentor do you use and what type of yeast was used for the last batch?

Most wild yeast are POF+(phenolic Off flavor positive. think cloves), prior to pitching the Voss, how did it smell?

It is a little late but you might of been better off to dump right away or just let the batch go with whatever was already working then to pitch more yeast.

I am sure having the temp at 100F helped but to get a small trace amount of yeast to build up enough to do a full size batch of beer a couple days seems a bit odd. Might need to revisit your clean routine and if you ferment in plastic might be time for a new fermentor.

 

[foscojo]

...what kind of fermentor do you use and what type of yeast was used for the last batch?

...prior to pitching the Voss, how did it smell?

It was a new FerMonster fermenter, so not prior yeast.

When I first opened it, it just smelled like wort. I didn't notice any unexpected odors.

 

[easttex]

I brewed on Saturday. 5.5 gallons of wort into fermenter at about 5pm. I sent my temp controller to 100F because I cooled it too far and needed to get the temp back up for the Lallemand Voss kviek I am using. But then a family emergency came up before I could pitch the yeast. I just got home on Monday 9am and checked on my fermenter.

I found a pretty high krausen, lots of bubble activity, and debris in the blowoff tubing.

Does that sound like it picked up a wild yeast that took off? Or maybe some kind of infection?

Thoughts?

Roughly the same thing happened to me. Spent seven hours Saturday brewing a saison, didn't get around to pitching the yeast until Monday afternoon. Arrived home Monday to pitch my starter to this:

I dumped it because it reeked of mushrooms growing on wet dogfood. I have no time or desire to find out what innoculated while I wasn't looking. I'm going to Iodophor the whole set up before I reuse it.

 

[foscojo]

Okay, some good news. So far, it just looks like beer. It was hard to get a pic of the surface through the krausen ring but I didn't see anything growing across it.

Activity is very low now. But that's normal for kviek, I hear. Hard and fast active fermentation.

 

[ba-brewer]

It was a new FerMonster fermenter, so not prior yeast.

When I first opened it, it just smelled like wort. I didn't notice any unexpected odors.

so it smelled like sweet wort and no fermentation like aromas?

Did you check the gravity before pitching the Voss?

With voss you should be about done so you wont have to wait long to taste it if you feel adventurous(or brave).