Treehouse Brewing Julius Clone

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I sat in on a conference with the brewer from Foundation and the lab manager from Hill farmstead and the haze is from protein, not yeast. This may not be the case for Treehouse, and I haven't had their beer, but they all seem to fall into the same category. Maybe this has already been covered somewhere in this thread, i certainly didn't read it all. Both hill farmsteads hoppy beers and foundations epiphany were all fined with BioFine and have little to no yeast in suspension.
 
There really needs to be some legit research put into this. JC from Trillium told me in person that his haze isn't yeast or protein but biotransformed hop oils. But they also use Wheat.

Maybe it's one or the other or all of the above.

I just love how rustled old school brewers get about turbidity. At the end of the day, does it taste good!?
 
There really needs to be some legit research put into this. JC from Trillium told me in person that his haze isn't yeast or protein but biotransformed hop oils. But they also use Wheat.

Maybe it's one or the other or all of the above.

I just love how rustled old school brewers get about turbidity. At the end of the day, does it taste good!?

What is bio transformed hop oils? Just hop oil or particulate in suspension, ie because they whirlpool or dry hop with a ton of them.
 
What is bio transformed hop oils? Just hop oil or particulate in suspension, ie because they whirlpool or dry hop with a ton of them.
As I understand it, it's the hop oils that make contact with still active yeast. That's why a lot of these turbid beers are getting a massive dry hop load at the tail end of fermentation. The hop load has to be massive because while the yeast is changing the profile of the hop oils, making the flavors softer and rounded or "Juicy", it's also stripping stuff out (as explained to me by a Brewer from Cellarmaker).

I don't think there is any science behind this tho, just Brewer experience. Then again there is no science behind first wort hopping either which many brewers are convinced makes a difference.
 
As I understand it, it's the hop oils that make contact with still active yeast. That's why a lot of these turbid beers are getting a massive dry hop load at the tail end of fermentation. The hop load has to be massive because while the yeast is changing the profile of the hop oils, making the flavors softer and rounded or "Juicy", it's also stripping stuff out (as explained to me by a Brewer from Cellarmaker).

I don't think there is any science behind this tho, just Brewer experience. Then again there is no science behind first wort hopping either which many brewers are convinced makes a difference.

Cool thanks for the reply. I have heard of this dry hop technique during the tail end of fermentation, so from what I understand flocking yeast can strip some of the hop oils also so I guess you'd have to really increase the dry hop to get the same effect as dry hopping post fermentation?
 
The floccing yeast probably pull some hop particles out of solution. But on the upside, the last bit of fermentation will scrub out any oxygen associated with adding the hops.
 
Just a small update. I ended up brewing this last Wednesday, with a couple of small modifications. Firstly, I used 4oz Crystal 60, and 4oz Crystal 40. I goofed and scooped from the wrong container at first. I also added 0.5oz Mosaic at 15min. Lastly, I ended up using Conan instead of London Ale III, as both homebrew shops around me were out of 1318. I guess I talked it up too much to the local club as there was a run on it. :)

OG of 1.068, and fermenting away nicely. The pack of Conan from Bootleg biology had about 18hr lag time on the starter before visible kreusen. It also had close to 36hr lag time after pitching before a visible kreusen formed. Is this normal? I guess it could have had lower viability than calculated, and took a while to build itself up.

This is the recipe I came up with. It's vaguely based off of Hoppy Things, and influenced by some other beers of this style like Heady Topper and HopHands. I'd appreciate any insight or suggestions. The carafoam feels a pretty unnecessary considering the wheat and oats. It's not all that dissimilar to a grain bill that Ruckusz28 posted maybe 20 pages or so ago, and noslenwerd posted recently. I'm looking to brew this in a few weeks perhaps.

Projected for 5.5 gallons at 65% efficiency. I figure I'll lose a lot to trub.

11 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 78.0 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 10.2 %
12.0 oz Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 5.1 %
8.0 oz Carafoam (2.0 SRM) Grain 3.4 %
4.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 1.7 %
4.0 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 1.7 %

Bittering: (may use hopshot if I order soon)
0.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00%] (60 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 31.3 IBU

1.00 oz Citra [11.10%] (15 min) Hops 12.0 IBU
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50%] (15 min) Hops 9.2 IBU

Flameout:
1.50 oz Citra [11.10%] (0 min) Hops -
0.75 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50%] (0 min) Hops -
0.75 oz Mosaic [12.50%] (0 min) Hops -

Hopstand @ 170-180 for 30min
1.50 oz Citra [11.10%] (30 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -
0.75 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50%] (30 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -
0.75 oz Mosaic [12.50%] (30 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -

Dry Hop (will probably split in half. Half as fermentation is subsiding, and half after totally attenuated)
3.00 oz Citra [11.10%] (Dry Hop 7 days) Hops -
1.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50%] (Dry Hop 7 days) Hops -
1.50 oz Mosaic [12.50%] (Dry Hop 7 days) Hops -

1 Pkgs London Ale III (Wyeast Labs #1318) Yeast-Ale
 
As I understand it, it's the hop oils that make contact with still active yeast. That's why a lot of these turbid beers are getting a massive dry hop load at the tail end of fermentation. The hop load has to be massive because while the yeast is changing the profile of the hop oils, making the flavors softer and rounded or "Juicy", it's also stripping stuff out (as explained to me by a Brewer from Cellarmaker).



I don't think there is any science behind this tho, just Brewer experience. Then again there is no science behind first wort hopping either which many brewers are convinced makes a difference.



Cool thanks for the reply. I have heard of this dry hop technique during the tail end of fermentation, so from what I understand flocking yeast can strip some of the hop oils also so I guess you'd have to really increase the dry hop to get the same effect as dry hopping post fermentation?


How high can you go with dry hops you think without it becoming grassy or vegetal? Or just do a crap load of dry hops for only a day or two?
 
How high can you go with dry hops you think without it becoming grassy or vegetal? Or just do a crap load of dry hops for only a day or two?

I think the vegetal grassy thing comes in leaving the dry hop in to long so I think that's why a lot of the technique of splitting dry hop comes in to play. So in these type beers seems people dry hop at the end of or close to the end of fermentation so like day 3-5 so it's still bubbling but slowing and then throw the second dry hop in around day 10 and that will sit for two days and then you transfer to keg or bottle.
 
Dunno if this was added yet

http://beergraphs.com/bg/943-what-we-need-to-talk-about-when-we-talk-about-nort/

We tested Fieldwork's "Pulp-Free" and Tree House's "Alter Ego" for yeast. Fieldwork's beer is a little less hazy -- take a look below -- but it's considered one of their hazier beers. It had 25 yeast cells per .0025 millimeter squared. Alter Ego is pictured in the header next to Fieldworks' Morado Punch. It has 1325 yeast cells per .0025 millimeter squared.
 
Dunno if this was added yet

http://beergraphs.com/bg/943-what-we-need-to-talk-about-when-we-talk-about-nort/

We tested Fieldwork's "Pulp-Free" and Tree House's "Alter Ego" for yeast. Fieldwork's beer is a little less hazy -- take a look below -- but it's considered one of their hazier beers. It had 25 yeast cells per .0025 millimeter squared. Alter Ego is pictured in the header next to Fieldworks' Morado Punch. It has 1325 yeast cells per .0025 millimeter squared.

coool. thanks for the info! I sincerely doubt that Julius' haze isn't partly due to a lot of yeast. I think the picture will become much more clearer ( hah ) when more beers are done, including other hazy and non-hazy IPAs
 
Yeah, heady looks like a yeast starter if you pour into a glass and let it sit. You get a nice little cake.
 
Dunno if this was added yet

http://beergraphs.com/bg/943-what-we-need-to-talk-about-when-we-talk-about-nort/

We tested Fieldwork's "Pulp-Free" and Tree House's "Alter Ego" for yeast. Fieldwork's beer is a little less hazy -- take a look below -- but it's considered one of their hazier beers. It had 25 yeast cells per .0025 millimeter squared. Alter Ego is pictured in the header next to Fieldworks' Morado Punch. It has 1325 yeast cells per .0025 millimeter squared.


Maybe I'm screwing something up, but the units on that can't be correct. 1325 yeast cells per .0025 millimeter squared is 5.3 billion cells per mL! There are really 1325 cells for every smallest square in the center of a hemocytometer? Honestly, even 25 seems really high.
 
Here's a pic that one of my trading buddies sent me of when Julius was clear. I'm not positive of the year though

View attachment 350368


Forgive me if I'm over simplifying, but I believe the difference in clarity is due to the settlement of proteins in the keg. The cans are filled from the bright tank and contain as much suspended protein as the kegs, but do not have the same settling capability since they are packaged fresh.

I know my beers, even the hazy ones, get tremendously clearer after a few weeks in the keg.
 
Forgive me if I'm over simplifying, but I believe the difference in clarity is due to the settlement of proteins in the keg. The cans are filled from the bright tank and contain as much suspended protein as the kegs, but do not have the same settling capability since they are packaged fresh.

I know my beers, even the hazy ones, get tremendously clearer after a few weeks in the keg.

I've also been wondering about this hazy quality and how to maintain it longer. I have tried inverting my kegs after they start clearing. This results in much cloudier beer that can taste a little rough, but then it mellows after another day and seems to have more hop character. I wish I could keep the hops in suspension more. Maybe I need to start counter-pressure filling my keg as soon as it is carbonated, and then store the bottles cold. That is a closer approximation to getting a can of delicious, cloudy beer.
 
Forgive me if I'm over simplifying, but I believe the difference in clarity is due to the settlement of proteins in the keg. The cans are filled from the bright tank and contain as much suspended protein as the kegs, but do not have the same settling capability since they are packaged fresh.

I know my beers, even the hazy ones, get tremendously clearer after a few weeks in the keg.

The difference in clarity is absolutely settling of protein. I've been trying to nail the mouthfeel and hoppy character of the NE IPA on my 7bbl system, when i put the beer into the serving tank its fantastic, super juicy, cloudy, great texture. 6 days later when the tank is down to 1 keg or so, the beer is crystal clear and tastes totally different (not necessarily bad, but certainly hails in comparison to what it once was). I don't see why cans would have any less "settling capacity" then a keg, if anything I would assume they have more due to the smaller volume.

I've also been wondering about this hazy quality and how to maintain it longer. I have tried inverting my kegs after they start clearing. This results in much cloudier beer that can taste a little rough, but then it mellows after another day and seems to have more hop character. I wish I could keep the hops in suspension more. Maybe I need to start counter-pressure filling my keg as soon as it is carbonated, and then store the bottles cold. That is a closer approximation to getting a can of delicious, cloudy beer.

This is what I'm going to try next, I'm racking my next IPA on thursday, I'll carbonate it and keg off all 7bbls. My plan is to keep 2 or 3 cold upright, and keep the rest in my fermentation room warm and inverted. I'll post my findings as we go though the kegs, but I hope this is going to solve the settling issue, because these beers depend on being cloudy to retain the juicy hop character. There has to be some trick, because if you get a bissell bros keg on draft at a bar its just as cloudy as the tap room, granted thats probably because they don't fine their beer at all.
 
Forgive me if I'm over simplifying, but I believe the difference in clarity is due to the settlement of proteins in the keg. The cans are filled from the bright tank and contain as much suspended protein as the kegs, but do not have the same settling capability since they are packaged fresh.

I know my beers, even the hazy ones, get tremendously clearer after a few weeks in the keg.

The difference in clarity is absolutely settling of protein. I've been trying to nail the mouthfeel and hoppy character of the NE IPA on my 7bbl system, when i put the beer into the serving tank its fantastic, super juicy, cloudy, great texture. 6 days later when the tank is down to 1 keg or so, the beer is crystal clear and tastes totally different (not necessarily bad, but certainly hails in comparison to what it once was). I don't see why cans would have any less "settling capacity" then a keg, if anything I would assume they have more due to the smaller volume.

I've also been wondering about this hazy quality and how to maintain it longer. I have tried inverting my kegs after they start clearing. This results in much cloudier beer that can taste a little rough, but then it mellows after another day and seems to have more hop character. I wish I could keep the hops in suspension more. Maybe I need to start counter-pressure filling my keg as soon as it is carbonated, and then store the bottles cold. That is a closer approximation to getting a can of delicious, cloudy beer.

This is what I'm going to try next, I'm racking my next IPA on thursday, I'll carbonate it and keg off all 7bbls. My plan is to keep 2 or 3 cold upright, and keep the rest in my fermentation room warm and inverted. I'll post my findings as we go though the kegs, but I hope this is going to solve the settling issue, because these beers depend on being cloudy to retain the juicy hop character. There has to be some trick, because if you get a bissell bros keg on draft at a bar its just as cloudy as the tap room, granted thats probably because they don't fine their beer at all.
 
The difference in clarity is absolutely settling of protein.

I think the cloudiness in these beers is mainly due to suspended hop matter and tons of yeast, not necessarily "proteins". Also, cans are clearly different from kegs in that most people don't move a keg much. Cans are constantly being moved around and if you drink from the can you are constantly mixing up the particulate, yeast, and hops in the bottom.

This is what I'm going to try next, I'm racking my next IPA on thursday, I'll carbonate it and keg off all 7bbls. My plan is to keep 2 or 3 cold upright, and keep the rest in my fermentation room warm and inverted. I'll post my findings as we go though the kegs, but I hope this is going to solve the settling issue, because these beers depend on being cloudy to retain the juicy hop character. There has to be some trick, because if you get a bissell bros keg on draft at a bar its just as cloudy as the tap room, granted thats probably because they don't fine their beer at all.

This would be a VERY interesting experiment. Please keep us informed. I've thought of storing my beers warmer to try to keep the hops and yeast in suspension, but I haven't tried it yet. I also think it would be cool to try a very non-flocculent yeast strain, not sure which would be best, something better than US-05, as it drops clear very quickly in the keg, maybe Denny's yeast?
 
I would store a couple kegs cold and upside-down as well just to see how those 'age'.
Also, how cold are you storing these at?
 
I brewed a cloudy IPA this weekend, and let it sit on 2 oz of Simcoe and 2 more of Cascade. I want it to be a bit more fruity than those hops are going to be alone. What could I dry hop it with? I have Calypso and some Amarillo. I can always go to the LHBS and grab some Mosaic or Galaxy
 
I just inverted my keg a couple of times last night at maybe 10 PM. Today, at 5:30 PM I took a sample. It is cloudy and ... delicious! It is way more hop aroma and flavor after I inverted it. Hoppiness is definitely dropping out in the keg. I am wondering now if the best practice would be to remove as much yeast as possible, dry hop heavily, keg, and then invert the keg periodically to keep the hoppiness in suspension?!
 
I just inverted my keg a couple of times last night at maybe 10 PM. Today, at 5:30 PM I took a sample. It is cloudy and ... delicious! It is way more hop aroma and flavor after I inverted it. Hoppiness is definitely dropping out in the keg. I am wondering now if the best practice would be to remove as much yeast as possible, dry hop heavily, keg, and then invert the keg periodically to keep the hoppiness in suspension?!

this aligns with my experience of an amazing IPA after driving a keg up a mountain and on a dirt road. it was so murky, everyone called in Mulberry Mush. huge hit though. would prefer to not have to shake my kegs to keep it that way
 
this aligns with my experience of an amazing IPA after driving a keg up a mountain and on a dirt road. it was so murky, everyone called in Mulberry Mush. huge hit though. would prefer to not have to shake my kegs to keep it that way

ha ha! i bet that was a fun party in the mountains! well, inverting is not too difficult, so I am not opposed to it at all.
 
it was my friend's wedding party. it was indeed a fun party :mug: I'm just wondering how these breweries keep the cans and kegs in the murky stage. there's so much info on clearing and flocculating, that there isn't much on doing the opposite!
 
it was my friend's wedding party. it was indeed a fun party :mug: I'm just wondering how these breweries keep the cans and kegs in the murky stage. there's so much info on clearing and flocculating, that there isn't much on doing the opposite!

Damn, must be 2AM there? Up drinking IPA?!

I think the cans are easy now. You just can right out of the dry hop stage with no clarification. As long as the yeast you are using isn't offensive in the can, you can keep all of that yeast and hoppiness in there. Then, when people drink it, they mix it all up and drink it our pour it out into a glass murky. Kegs are trickier. i suppose you hope that people drink your kegged beer quickly so that it doesn't clarify?
 
I think these breweries sell their beer so quickly that they don't need to concern themselves with their beers clarifying. I also don't think it's a goal of theirs to have a hazy beer. I just think it's a result from the yeast they use.
 
Great thread! Powered through it in a couple of days, learned a lot. Thanks for all the great tips, links and for the entertainment!

I figure I probably have a better chance of brewing a good Julius clone than actually getting a hold of a fresh can of it, since I live in Sweden.

Will post my results here if I manage to produce a Tree House style fruit juice haze-bomb with amazing aromatics and silky, pillowy mouthfeel.

Cheers and thanks again for a very interesting thread!
 
Do you guys have any tips for kegging these kind of beers? I transferred and pressurized about a week ago. I thought I did a pretty good job at not picking up much trub or hop matter, but there's enough in there or settling out that the keg keeps clogging. I've cleaned out the poppit and blown off the trub four times already.

By virtue of my setup I need to pull the keg out of the freezer to remove the post. The act of lifting and putting it back into the freezer shakes it up enough to settle trub back to the bottom.

I've been thinking about transferring back to a carboy and cold crashing and re-racking, but I don't want to lose a ton of hop flavor. Should I just give it a shake before each pour to try to re-distribute the proteins? Maybe pass it through my SS braid in my old mashtun to try to catch the bigger particles?
 
Do you guys have any tips for kegging these kind of beers? I transferred and pressurized about a week ago. I thought I did a pretty good job at not picking up much trub or hop matter, but there's enough in there or settling out that the keg keeps clogging. I've cleaned out the poppit and blown off the trub four times already.

By virtue of my setup I need to pull the keg out of the freezer to remove the post. The act of lifting and putting it back into the freezer shakes it up enough to settle trub back to the bottom.

I've been thinking about transferring back to a carboy and cold crashing and re-racking, but I don't want to lose a ton of hop flavor. Should I just give it a shake before each pour to try to re-distribute the proteins? Maybe pass it through my SS braid in my old mashtun to try to catch the bigger particles?

I wrap a sanitized nylon bag around my racking cane/autosiphon when I put it into my carboy to rack. Otherwise, I usually clog it up or clog up the poppet. Also, I always cut off the dip tube on all of my kegs when I get new ones.

Could you try cutting off a dip tube from another keg and then sanitize it and swap it out with the old one to see if that helps? I cut off like 1/2"-1" usually.
 
Finally got around to having this yesterday. I've got to admit, the profile is very similar to that shaken up IPA I made. Definitely excited to give it a go. I also have to ask, is there a recipe that is considered the best attempt at cloning? I couldn't find a consensus after more than two dozen pages

IMG_20160427_134807984_HDR.jpg
 
That's interesting. I would have though such a low mash pH would increase attenuation and lead to a drier, thinner beer.
 
How can you achieve a mash pH in this range and expect the final pH to be 4.5? that's the number I've gotten from testing Eureka, Haze, and Julius.
 
Yes - generally my kettle full pH is 5.4-5.6, at that point I add food grade phosphoric acid to get it down to ~5.1 and knock out into the fermenter. After fermentation (my house strain is WLP007) my pH is ~4.5. Different yeast strains will vary in their finishing pHs - the trick is you have to stick with one and really get to know it so you can acidify your wort in the kettle to hit a desired pH at the end of fermentation.
 
That seems like an extremely low pH! She does say mash pH, so I wouldn't see why you need to add anything post mash? Has anyone ever gone this low with their pH on a clone or NE style IPA?
 
How much of a difference is the final beer pH before and after carbonation?

I was told to degas before taking pH readings, but I've measured before (freshly poured) and after (degassed) and got the same measurements on Cantillon Gueuze...so can't say for certain, but I think they are close enough at least
 
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