Treehouse Brewing Julius Clone

[noslenwerd]

This is loosely based on Julius, but I am mostly going for the massive "hop juice" profile tree house achieves, as well as the hazy character. Brewing this weekend.

Please let me know your thoughts!

Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
Efficiency: 75.00 %
Mash In: 150.0F for 60 min
Yeast: DIPA Conan - Omega
ABV: 6.8%
OG: 1.046
FG: 1.013

***Grain***

10 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US - 81.5 %
1 lbs 4.0 oz White Wheat Malt - 9.7 %
8.0 oz Oats, Flaked- 3.9 %
6.1 oz Honey Malt - 3.0 %
4.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L - 1.9 %
1.00 oz CTZ [14 %] - Mash 60.0 min 9.1 IBUs
(Mostly doing mash hop to lower pH)

***Hops/Misc***
0.50 oz CTZ [14.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min 24.9 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [11.70 %] - Boil 15.0 min 9.8 IBUs
0.50 oz Galaxy [13.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min 10.8 IBUs
0.50 oz belma [9.80 %] - Boil 15.0 min 8.2 IBUs
1/2 teaspoon citric acid - Boil 5.0 min

***Steeped/Whirlpool Hops***

At Flameout. 30 minute hopstand

2.00 oz Citra [11.70 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min Hop 11 3 IBUs
1.00 oz Belma [9.80 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min Hop 13 1.3 IBUs

At 170F. 30 minute hopstand

2.00 oz Citra [11.70 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min 3 IBUs
1.00 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min 1.3 IBUs

***Dry/Keg Hops***

First day of fermentation
3.00 oz Citra [11.70 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days
1.50 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days
1.50 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days

Keg Hops
2.00 oz Citra [11.70 %] - Keg Hop 4.0 Days
1.00 oz Belma [9.80 %] - Keg Hop 4.0 Days

***Fermentation***
4 days @ 67.0 F
10 days @ 70.0 F

 

[TxBigHops]

This might be a stupid question, but people who have tried a clone recipe... Do you filter out your hops before adding to the fermenter? Or do you leave them in?

*puts on flame suit*

Certainly not a stupid question. Yes, I also filter out "some" of the hop material when transferring to the fermentor. Impossible to get it all! I've tried using hop spiders before, but I'm not convinced that I get all the hoppy goodness when they are balled up in a paint strainer bag, so I toss them in loose now. Then, I drain my kettle into a 4x10 steel mesh strainer on its way into my Big Mouth Bubbler. I usually have to stop half way and empty the strainer. I try hard to get every drop of liquid while removing most the solid material. On most IPAs, my wort still has plenty of green material floating around in the fermentor, and the top of my krausen is also green once fermentation starts.

 

[TxBigHops]

You mean the hops from the kettle? I always leave that behind regardless of style. I use a big paint strainer bag in a spider in my kettle when doing a lot of hop additions.

Correct in the kettle

Good deal I will just dump it all into the carboy unfiltered.

I think you misunderstood Snubnoze. He's saying he leaves the hops behind in the kettle, and does not transfer them into the fermentor. But if your carboy is big enough and you're not planning to re-use your yeast, I don't think there is much, if any downside to dumping it in.

 

[TxBigHops]

This is loosely based on Julius, but I am mostly going for the massive "hop juice" profile tree house achieves, as well as the hazy character. Brewing this weekend.

Please let me know your thoughts!

Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
Efficiency: 75.00 %
Mash In: 150.0F for 60 min
Yeast: DIPA Conan - Omega

***Grain***

10 lbs 12.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US - 81.9 %
1 lbs 4.0 oz White Wheat Malt - 9.5 %
8.0 oz Oats, Flaked- 3.8 %
6.1 oz Honey Malt - 2.9 %
4.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L - 1.9 %
1.00 oz Citra [11.70 %] - Mash 60.0 min Hop 6 7.9 IBUs
(Mostly doing mash hop to lower pH)

***Hops/Misc***
0.50 oz Citra [11.70 %] - First Wort 60.0 min 21.6 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [11.70 %] - Boil 15.0 min 9.8 IBUs
0.50 oz Galaxy [13.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min 10.8 IBUs
0.50 oz belma [9.80 %] - Boil 15.0 min 8.2 IBUs
1/2 teaspoon citric acid - Boil 5.0 min

***Steeped/Whirlpool Hops***

At Flameout. 30 minute hopstand

2.00 oz Citra [11.70 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min Hop 11 30.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Belma [9.80 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min Hop 13 12.7 IBUs

At 170F. 30 minute hopstand

2.00 oz Citra [11.70 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min 30.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min 15.8 IBUs

***Dry/Keg Hops***

Four days after fermentation
3.00 oz Citra [11.70 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days
1.50 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days
1.50 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days

Keg Hops
2.00 oz Citra [11.70 %] - Keg Hop 4.0 Days
1.00 oz Belma [9.80 %] - Keg Hop 4.0 Days

***Fermentation***
4 days @ 67.0 F
10 days @ 70.0 F

First, you may want to adjust your hop utilization on flameout and whirlpool additions. Don't think you will get even close to that many IBUs, but then, you probably don't really want your Julius clone to have 145 IBUs anyway, so I wouldn't necessarily change the additions, at least not for that reason. Only other comment is whether you want to use Citra in your mash and FWH. Some folks report getting a cat pee aroma from citra used early in the boil.

 

[noslenwerd]

First, you may want to adjust your hop utilization on flameout and whirlpool additions. Don't think you will get even close to that many IBUs, but then, you probably don't really want your Julius clone to have 145 IBUs anyway, so I wouldn't necessarily change the additions, at least not for that reason. Only other comment is whether you want to use Citra in your mash and FWH. Some folks report getting a cat pee aroma from citra used early in the boil.

Thanks Tx. Two questions.

1. What % would you change the hop utilization to for the whirlpool and 170 additions?
2. Which of my other 3 hops would you sub in for citra as my 0.5oz bittering hop? Belma, mosaic or galaxy?

 

[TxBigHops]

Thanks Tx. Two questions.

1. What % would you change the hop utilization to for the whirlpool and 170 additions?
2. Which of my other 3 hops would you sub in for citra as my 0.5oz bittering hop? Belma, mosaic or galaxy?

Personally, I assume zero utilization for flameout and whirlpool additions. I've seen others argue that you might get 10% from flameout. Once you drop below 170, I think any utilization will be pretty negligible.

I have not personally brewed with Belma or Galaxy. I do use Mosaic, but only late additions and dry hop. Others in this thread have used CTZ for bittering, and that is probably what I would go with. From the three you list, Galaxy would be a good choice.

 

[Snubnoze707]

I do my late additions whirlpool at 170 and assume 0 IBU's when calculating but honestly don't know that to completely true.

Have there been any studies on bitterness contributions bellow boil temps?

 

[TxBigHops]

I do my late additions whirlpool at 170 and assume 0 IBU's when calculating but honestly don't know that to completely true.

Have there been any studies on bitterness contributions bellow boil temps?

Here is a thread that was knocking around a couple months ago. I think there are a couple of links to where there has been some research.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=568961

 

[m00ps]

I saw in a somehwta recent BYO article that long hopstands at flameout get you in the realm of 10% utilization. I would say IBUs at 170F are negligible. The main takeaway is to not shy away from upping the amount you add once the boil is out. My usual process for IPAs is like 5 or more oz at flameout, then about the same after the temp has dropped. Havent had any complaints about anything being "too bitter," even from IPA haters

@noslenwerd
I think you are going to need a lot more oats or flaked wheat if you want an appearance to come anything remotely close to julius. I woudl sub flaked wheat for the wheat, and do like 20% of the grain bill. I've had repeated success going a bit past 40% flaked wheat/oats

 

[noslenwerd]

I saw in a somehwta recent BYO article that long hopstands at flameout get you in the realm of 10% utilization. I would say IBUs at 170F are negligible. The main takeaway is to not shy away from upping the amount you add once the boil is out. My usual process for IPAs is like 5 or more oz at flameout, then about the same after the temp has dropped. Havent had any complaints about anything being "too bitter," even from IPA haters

Oh wow... And this if for a 5 gallon batch?

I think I have about 17 total ounces set to be used for my 5 gallon batch.

 

[m00ps]

Oh wow... And this if for a 5 gallon batch?

I think I have about 17 total ounces set to be used for my 5 gallon batch.

Yeah, that hop schedule you posted looks solid. I just wanted to reassure you it wont be unpalatable bitter

Id also echo the idea to save your citra hops for later additions. Literally use anything other than citra. Its one of the most expensive hops on the market right now. Dont waste that great aroma and flavor on something that could be done by like less than $1 worth of magnum

 

[noslenwerd]

Yeah, that hop schedule you posted looks solid. I just wanted to reassure you it wont be unpalatable bitter

Id also echo the idea to save your citra hops for later additions. Literally use anything other than citra. Its one of the most expensive hops on the market right now. Dont waste that great aroma and flavor on something that could be done by like less than $1 worth of magnum

Thanks for all the feedback.. I did modify to use CTZ instead.

 

[Ruckusz28]

Personally, I assume zero utilization for flameout and whirlpool additions. I've seen others argue that you might get 10% from flameout. Once you drop below 170, I think any utilization will be pretty negligible.

I had a small batch experiment where all of my bitterness came from a 150*F hopstand. I assumed 5% utilization from an article that I read. The beer is too bitter to drink and resulted in a drainpour. Its sat for about 6 weeks in bottles and it's slowly coming around. There were roughly 8oz of belma in a 2 gallon batch: all hopstand and dryhop additions.

I wanted to see if you can go too far, and yes, you can.

 

[noslenwerd]

I had a small batch experiment where all of my bitterness came from a 150*F hopstand. I assumed 5% utilization from an article that I read. The beer is too bitter to drink and resulted in a drainpour. Its sat for about 6 weeks in bottles and it's slowly coming around. There were roughly 8oz of belma in a 2 gallon batch: all hopstand and dryhop additions.

I wanted to see if you can go too far, and yes, you can.

Wow.. so about 4oz at 150*? How long did you hold the temp at 150 before cooling?

 

[Ruckusz28]

I did for a half hour. It naturally cooled down to about 140 by the time it was done. That was my first experiment with a hopstand.

 

[lilbova3]

I had a small batch experiment where all of my bitterness came from a 150*F hopstand. I assumed 5% utilization from an article that I read. The beer is too bitter to drink and resulted in a drainpour. Its sat for about 6 weeks in bottles and it's slowly coming around. There were roughly 8oz of belma in a 2 gallon batch: all hopstand and dryhop additions.

I wanted to see if you can go too far, and yes, you can.

So you only did a hop stand and you got that much bitterness at 150*?! No other bittering hops?

 

[Ruckusz28]

I think i used .2oz Belma at 10 minutes. The rest were hop stand additions. I got a pound cheap and figured i'd go wild and see what happens. Lesson learned.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I didn't think that was possible. I'm not sure if any of my experiences says that can happen. I've put 5-7 oz in at 180 for 1.5 hours and gotten IPAs that I thought weren't bitter enough. I wonder what the difference is between our brews

 

[ryancrook]

Was it bitter from something else? Maybe tannin extraction?

 

[leesmith]

I've been doing a 2.5 gallon recipe that consists of 4.5oz at flame out (after I add the hops I chill to about 180-170f) for a 10-15 min whirlpool. As the blow off tube slows down I dry hop 4.5oz and change to an air lock. Around 10 days from pitching I transfer the beer (which is probably about 2.25 gallons at this point) into a purged keg with 4.5oz of hops in a big bag so they can swirl around in there for two more days. I shake the keg every now and then during those two days. I then chill and carbonate. The beer is huge in flavor and aroma but soft and no where near as bitter (I use 40IBU's of Warrior to bitter) as many double IPA's out there.

 

[poptarts]

15oz of hops per 2.5 gallons? I would assume ROI on that in minimal and you could probably go close to half that.

 

[leesmith]

15oz of hops per 2.5 gallons? I would assume ROI on that in minimal and you could probably go close to half that.

Probably.

But I find it funny that I don't mind spending $19.99 a pound for a steak I know I'm gonna enjoy. Once.

This works for me for now...I may find I can dial it back...I've used less hops before.

 

[rsalan]

I've been doing a 2.5 gallon recipe that consists of 5oz at flame out (after I add the hops I chill to about 180-170f) for a 10-15 min whirlpool. As the blow off tube slows down I dry hop 5oz and change to an air lock. Around 10 days from pitching I transfer the beer (which is probably about 2.25 gallons at this point) into a purged keg with 5oz of hops in a big bag so they can swirl around in there for two more days. I shake the keg every now and then during those two days. I then chill and carbonate. The beer is huge in flavor and aroma (I use 40IBU's of Warrior to bitter) but soft and no where near as bitter as many double IPA's out there.
View attachment 345019

Looks gorgeous. Mind sharing the recipe?

 

[leesmith]

Thank you. When I get home from work, I'll look in my notes and post.

******made an edit: It's 4.5oz per addition.

 

[KindofBlues71]

15oz of hops per 2.5 gallons? I would assume ROI on that in minimal and you could probably go close to half that.

Even if he used a full pound of Citra at $30 and $20 for grain, AND only got 20 12oz bottles (slightly less than 2 gal), it'd cost $2.50 per bottle. That seems like a great ROI to me! Plus, can you really put a dollar amount on something you enjoy? [/cheesiness]

 

[TxBigHops]

I've been doing a 2.5 gallon recipe that consists of 4.5oz at flame out (after I add the hops I chill to about 180-170f) for a 10-15 min whirlpool. As the blow off tube slows down I dry hop 4.5oz and change to an air lock. Around 10 days from pitching I transfer the beer (which is probably about 2.25 gallons at this point) into a purged keg with 4.5oz of hops in a big bag so they can swirl around in there for two more days. I shake the keg every now and then during those two days. I then chill and carbonate. The beer is huge in flavor and aroma but soft and no where near as bitter (I use 40IBU's of Warrior to bitter) as many double IPA's out there.
View attachment 345019

REALLY nice looking beer. When I zoom in on the pic, there appear to be green specs at the bottom of the glass. Is that hop material?

 

[m00ps]

REALLY nice looking beer. When I zoom in on the pic, there appear to be green specs at the bottom of the glass. Is that hop material?

definitely. My big hopped IPAs take at least a week in the kegerator to calm the f$% down. The hop bits can give an abrasive feeling on the back of your throat, but they settle pretty quickly compared to the overpowering hop aroma that it has when its fresh. You practically cant taste anything at first

 

[leesmith]

Thank you.
Yeah that's hop bits.
They settle out over time.
Below is the same beer at about 1.5 weeks old.

 

[leesmith]

Emily's
Double IPA

Batch Size: 2.50 gal
OG: @1.071
FG: @1.011

Grain Bill:
Pale Malt (2 Row) 75.0 %
White Wheat Malt 15.0 %
C20 5.0 %

Mash at 152.0F for 60 minutes

Boil for 60 minutes:
Sugar 5.0 % at 60 min.
Warrior at 60.0 min for 40.0 IBUs

Whirlpool Hops for about 10-15 minutes:
3.00 oz Galaxy
1.50 oz Columbus

Fermentation:
White Labs WLP007
1 liter starter made the day before

Primary Dry Hop for about 5 days:
3.00 oz Galaxy
1.50 oz Columbus

Keg Dry Hop for about 2 days:
3.00 oz Galaxy
1.50 oz Columbus

Notes:
Poland Spring water adjusted to the Light and Hoppy water profile in Brewer's Friend. Omit the Magnesium and Sodium adjustments. Target a mash pH of 5.35 and a pH of 5.2 at the beginning of the boil.

 

[Ruckusz28]

View attachment 345019

That's an amazing looking beer. Great job!

 

[leesmith]

Ruckusz28,

Thank you.
The reason I contributed to the thread was because of your experience with Belma. I've never used the hop so take what I say with a grain of salt.

I can't help but think maybe temperature had something to do with it being so strong. Maybe at 150f not enough hop compounds are being driven off to smooth things out.

I'm a raw/green IPA sort of person and try to achieve as close to the raw hop flavor/aroma that I can and still be pleasant. It's not like I want to eat hops; I usually try a pellet from every new hop I buy just to...well...test it. I'm wondering if your getting raw hop flavor from that particular process. Is what you're perceiving as IBU's the harsh green flavor of raw hops?

 

[Ruckusz28]

Ruckusz28,

Thank you.
The reason I contributed to the thread was because of your experience with Belma. I've never used the hop so take what I say with a grain of salt.

I can't help but think maybe temperature had something to do with it being so strong. Maybe at 150f not enough hop compounds are being driven off to smooth things out.

I'm a raw/green IPA sort of person and try to achieve as close to the raw hop flavor/aroma that I can and still be pleasant. It's not like I want to eat hops; I usually try a pellet from every new hop I buy just to...well...test it. I'm wondering if your getting raw hop flavor from that particular process. Is what you're perceiving as IBU's the harsh green flavor of raw hops?

Strong suggestion. I'll send you a PM so we don't get this thread off topic.

 

[rsalan]

Strong suggestion. I'll send you a PM so we don't get this thread off topic.

I've read a research paper that pretty much stated that hop utilization isn't really at 0% until the temps are below 130F. I now whirlpool my hops at 130 or below to avoid any extra IBUs. I'd do it for longer than 30 mins due to the temps being so low.

I'd post a link to the article but I don't know where to find it again.

 

[leesmith]

I wasn't saying he wasn't getting any IBU's just noting that he may be getting more raw hop flavor than he would at higher temps.
Raw hops are harsh; for lack of a better word they are very astringent and I could see someone perceiving that as IBUs.
A highly hopped green beer can be pretty overpowering.

 

[specharka]

This is getting ridiculous. 15 oz for a 2.5 gallon batch?!?! The Tree House website itself says they use 1.6 oz / gallon for Julius (roughly 8 oz for a 5 gallon batch). I can't justify twice the hopping rate, even with 8 lb to spare.

Hop smarter, not harder!

 

[TheHairyHop]

This is getting ridiculous. 15 oz for a 2.5 gallon batch?!?! The Tree House website itself says they use 1.6 oz / gallon for Julius (roughly 8 oz for a 5 gallon batch). I can't justify twice the hopping rate, even with 8 lb to spare.

Hop smarter, not harder!

Tbh, the brewery is so tight-lipped about their recipe that it could just be nonsense

 

[Calichusetts]

This is getting ridiculous. 15 oz for a 2.5 gallon batch?!?! The Tree House website itself says they use 1.6 oz / gallon for Julius (roughly 8 oz for a 5 gallon batch). I can't justify twice the hopping rate, even with 8 lb to spare.

Hop smarter, not harder!

Heres what you're not considering:

1. He get the last of the last. Breweries are getting superior hops again and again. Many breweries even get to pick specific areas of a farm to get consistent harvests from.

2. Most home brewers don't have access to the techniques and equipment that breweries have. Many aspects of brewing and hopping are difficult if not impossible to us. We are catching up but there is also the issue of volume and how breweries are getting much better utilization from their hops as well.

Basically, we need to use more than them to achieve their standards. How much is up for debate but we shouldn't act like home brewers are on the same playing field as the pros. Sure, I tasted homebrew better or at least acceptable to say it would stand up to the best. Those are far and few between though. Just keep this in mind.

 

[mosaicbrewer]

1.6 oz/gal? like the zombie dust clone they copied and added oats to? haha.

 

[rsalan]

Do you guys strain from kettle to fermenter? I kinda wish I did now with all the hop particulate I saw..

 

[specharka]

Heres what you're not considering:



1. He get the last of the last. Breweries are getting superior hops again and again. Many breweries even get to pick specific areas of a farm to get consistent harvests from.



2. Most home brewers don't have access to the techniques and equipment that breweries have. Many aspects of brewing and hopping are difficult if not impossible to us. We are catching up but there is also the issue of volume and how breweries are getting much better utilization from their hops as well.



Basically, we need to use more than them to achieve their standards. How much is up for debate but we shouldn't act like home brewers are on the same playing field as the pros. Sure, I tasted homebrew better or at least acceptable to say it would stand up to the best. Those are far and few between though. Just keep this in mind.

My point wasn't that "we should try to emulate Nate", it's that there's a huge culture of excess associated with brewing IPAs, and I don't necessarily think that it results in better beer. I've been guilty of using upwards of 12 ounces in a 5G batch, but I'm sure I could have shaved a few ounces without ill effect. There are definitely diminishing returns associated with more hops -- at what point does adding more hops become irrelevant?

While I agree that homebrewers are more limited in the methods we have available to infuse hop flavors into the beer, that doesn't mean that we need to use an excessive amount of hops to compensate for it. There are novel ways to infuse hop aroma without resulting in green swimmers, and I suspect that these technologies will improve with time.

http://www.bear-flavored.com/2014/09/how-i-dry-hop-my-ipas-with-no-oxygen.html

As I see it, homebrewers have at least one advantage: we can hop stand / whirlpool at temperatures below 190F. Try doing that in a 10 BBL BK -- you will be waiting for quite some time for it to fall that low.