To Helles with this

[beerisyummy]

I think finally I am brave enough to try an all-grain Munich Helles.
Some questions for the assembly of wizards.
1. Malt bill. Zainasheff & Palmer recommend Pils and a wee bit of Melanoidin & Munich. Josh Weikert recommends Pils with a wee bit of Vienna & Victory. I've seen other recipes with Pils only. Thoughts?
2. Mash. To decoct or not to decoct, that is the question. Thoughts?
3. Yeast. What strain is going to finish the driest while still imparting "that German character?" Zainasheff & Palmer as well as Weikert seem to like WY2308.
I'm interested in any and all ideas and opinions. TIA!

 

[Miraculix]

Best yeast for this is Imperial harvest, which is the Augustiner strain. I wanted to brew an American lager recently and the result instantly reminded me of Augustiner helles, which was not my intention at all.

This yeast makes a grrrreat helles, as Augustiner for me is the best helles on the market, it's an easy choice for me. Big plus, I even fermented it warm and it still worked.

Grain bill, I'd go with 20% Munich 1, 80% pilsner. If no decoction, then I'd replace about 5% of the pilsner with melanoidin.

 

[madscientist451]

2. Mash. To decoct or not to decoct, that is the question. Thoughts?

What about a step mash?

 

[Miraculix]

What about a step mash?

30-45 minutes @ 62c and the same time at 72c. That makes a nicely fermentable wort.

 

[dmtaylor]

I think finally I am brave enough to try an all-grain Munich Helles.
Some questions for the assembly of wizards.
1. Malt bill. Zainasheff & Palmer recommend Pils and a wee bit of Melanoidin & Munich. Josh Weikert recommends Pils with a wee bit of Vienna & Victory. I've seen other recipes with Pils only. Thoughts?
2. Mash. To decoct or not to decoct, that is the question. Thoughts?
3. Yeast. What strain is going to finish the driest while still imparting "that German character?" Zainasheff & Palmer as well as Weikert seem to like WY2308.
I'm interested in any and all ideas and opinions. TIA!

1. A little Victory malt will make great beer, but if you want a true helles, then it doesn't belong at all. Same with Munich. Helles only needs pilsner malt and nothing else.
2. Decoction can darken the beer slightly, if deeper color matters to you. Otherwise, skip it. Other supposed benefits are very debatable.
3. Wyeast 2308 will make a great helles. I've had the best success with Wyeast 2206, Lallemand Diamond, and Fermentis S-189.

Enjoy.

 

[friarsmith]

IO Harvest would be my first choice. WLP838/WY2308 a close second.

For hops I like Spalt & Hersbrucker— the latter as a flameout addition. But any number or Noble combinations would work.

92/4/4 Pils/Vienna/Carafoam mashed for 30 mins at 148* and 60 mins at 160* with no mashout. You can recirc to set the grain bed during the last half of the 160* rest to save time. Results in a beer w/ an initial mouthhfeel of fluffy Wonderbread which finishes light, slightly bready, grainy and crisp. Side note: I usually split the pils portion 50/50 with Best Pils and Wey Floor Malted. Not critical, I suppose, but it is something I stumbled upon several years ago and really liked. Using one type of pils is just fine though.

Low-ish mineral water, ie Ca, Cl, Sulfates in the 35-50 range at most.

I have brewed the above via BIAB, direct-fire step mash in a regular mash tun, and sometimes incorporated a short decoction (mainly for competitions) to raise from 148 to 160. **Maybe** the decoction route is my fav, but each process produces an excellent beer. I have a fresh keg and can post a pic when I get home in a few days. I’ll need a beer after dealing w/ holiday air travel!

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

1 would depend on what you are after, altough I would go with pils and vienna. Not sure if the toasty flavour of victory would be appropriate in a beer of this type.
2 if you decoct the melanoiden malt is kinda reduntant, it is time consuming and make sure to get your calculations right. Also can be rather messy.
3 I'm not really a big lager brewer, but good old 34/70 should work fine in this.

 

[SaltNeck]

@braukeiser recipe with instructions might assist you in your quest:

Edel Hell - German brewing and more (braukaiser.com)

The low dissolved oxygen folks also had a recipe if your system and/or process is capable:

Brewing-Bavarian-Helles.pdf (germanbrewing.net)

Methods of the **************** - The ****************

Not sure why "T h e M o d e r n B r e w h o u s e" link is being mangled but it can certainly be Googled.

 

[jdauria]

Definitely DON"T do decoction if this is your first lager, get a couple under your bet before trying "advanced" method. I brew almost lagers almost exclusively and just do step mashes, have tried decoction and it's fun, but just so time consuming. My step mash for a Helles is 145° for 30, 158° for 30, 172 mash out for 10.

100% agree with others that Imperial Harvest is the best yeast for a Helles, it's my go to for all German Lagers.

My go to Helles recipe is 95% Pilsner, and I prefer Weyermann Barke Pilsner and 5% CaraHell. 22-25 IBUs with German Nobel hops at 60 and 30. If you decide to add melanoidin, keep it to just 1-2% of grain bill any more will be overpowering in a Helles.

And if this is a first lager, remember lagers need a lot more yeast than ales, especially if fermenting at lager temps, like 52°. One 200 billion cell pack of Harvest is not enough no matter what it says on the package, make a starter. At minimum, a 1.050 5 gallon batch of lager should have 352 billion cells, Harvest only has 200 if super fresh.

 

[friarsmith]

Harvest is a great, non-fussy yeast for saving and reusing. Pitch
the Helles slurry into a Pils, then that slurry into a dunkel or standard bock, then give it a grand send-off in a doppelbock.

You can also split the original slurry two or three ways, then with a future starter, the sky is almost the limit for future batches.

 

[beerisyummy]

Thanks for the replies so far! This is not my first lager. I normally make a step starter for lagers so I have hella yeast. Did not really know about Imperial Harvest, will give it a try!

 

[MrPowers]

A good starting place would be:

95/5 Pilsner/Carahell
or
90/10 Pilsner/Munich
Use German malts only. Weyermann Barke Pilsner is definitely my go to. Melanoidin and victory don’t belong in traditional helles.

Target 1.046-1.048

Dont bother with decoction, but do mash for fermentability. If you can step mash, rests at 147, 152, 163, and mash out at 171. Timing is 30/10/30/10. If you can only do single infusion, start at 152-153 and let it drift down into the mid 140’s over 60-90 minutes.

Boil gently for an hour. Maximum 2 hop additions at 60/30 with any combination of German nobleish varieties to about 18-22ibu. I like Tradition and Hersbrucker. If you do a 30 min addition, it should be light handed.

Airate well and pitch a metric s*** ton of imperial harvest or wyeast 2206, cold, and ferment cold (50f). You should be targeting a pitch rate between 2.0-2.5.

Spund into kegs if you can and at all points of the process, except immediately prior to pitching yeast, do everything in your power to limit oxygen exposure.

 

[beerisyummy]

A good starting place would be:

95/5 Pilsner/Carahell
or
90/10 Pilsner/Munich
Use German malts only. Weyermann Barke Pilsner is definitely my go to. Melanoidin and victory don’t belong in traditional helles.

Target 1.046-1.048

Dont bother with decoction, but do mash for fermentability. If you can step mash, rests at 147, 152, 163, and mash out at 171. Timing is 30/10/30/10. If you can only do single infusion, start at 152-153 and let it drift down into the mid 140’s over 60-90 minutes.

Boil gently for an hour. Maximum 2 hop additions at 60/30 with any combination of German nobleish varieties to about 18-22ibu. I like Tradition and Hersbrucker. If you do a 30 min addition, it should be light handed.

Airate well and pitch a metric s*** ton of imperial harvest or wyeast 2206, cold, and ferment cold (50f). You should be targeting a pitch rate between 2.0-2.5.

Spund into kegs if you can and at all points of the process, except immediately prior to pitching yeast, do everything in your power to limit oxygen exposure.

A metric S***ton

 

[Bassman2003]

I would say have fun and don't be too oppressed by the style! It is just beer in the end.

 

[BigEd]

I think finally I am brave enough to try an all-grain Munich Helles.
Some questions for the assembly of wizards.
1. Malt bill. Zainasheff & Palmer recommend Pils and a wee bit of Melanoidin & Munich. Josh Weikert recommends Pils with a wee bit of Vienna & Victory. I've seen other recipes with Pils only. Thoughts?
2. Mash. To decoct or not to decoct, that is the question. Thoughts?
3. Yeast. What strain is going to finish the driest while still imparting "that German character?" Zainasheff & Palmer as well as Weikert seem to like WY2308.
I'm interested in any and all ideas and opinions. TIA!

Pilsner malt only and make sure it's a good German malt. I prefer decoction but that's your decision. I always find it quiet interesting that Mr Z and others who for the most part rally against decoction mashes often recommend using specialty malts like Melanoidin which are championed as replacing the effects of decoction mash. They don't.

If you choose to delete the decoction I'd suggest a German Hochkurz mash for that "German lager" body profile; 147F/64C for 45 min, 158F/70C for 20 min, 169F/76C for 15 min. The dry finish should be a component of the mash, not so much the yeast. Helles is a delicate beer but it should also be malty. The Wyeast 2308 is very good, I've also had good results with the White Lab 838 and 830.

 

[beerisyummy]

I would say have fun and don't be too oppressed by the style! It is just beer in the end.

Thanks man.

 

[Bassman2003]

I often get a little more attentive when making a helles knowing it is this transparent eternal brewing test. Then half way through the day I realize it is just like any other beer. It is fun to try to perfect the style though.

 

[Beermeister32]

WLP833 German Bock yeast is my favorite. Step mash, pitch at 48F, ferment at 50F, D-rest mid 60’s for a few days. Transfer to keg, lager it 90 days at 34F.

 

[Brooothru]

Best yeast for this is Imperial harvest, which is the Augustiner strain. I wanted to brew an American lager recently and the result instantly reminded me of Augustiner helles, which was not my intention at all.

This yeast makes a grrrreat helles, as Augustiner for me is the best helles on the market, it's an easy choice for me. Big plus, I even fermented it warm and it still worked.

Grain bill, I'd go with 20% Munich 1, 80% pilsner. If no decoction, then I'd replace about 5% of the pilsner with melanoidin.

Totally 'second' the nomination for Augustiner, though I've never used L-17 Harvest. Had lots of good luck with WLP-860 Munich Helles, which is also Augustiner strain. Wyeast 2308 German Lager is thought to be Wisenschaftliche 308, which will make a very good German lager. The origin of Wyeast 2352 Munich Lager II is Augustiner strain. So, L-17 Harvest, WY 2352 Munich II, OYL-114 Bayern Lager, and WLP-860 Munich Helles Lager are all purported to be the Augustiner strain though the WLP-860 is seasonal and often hard to come by. Any one of those would be my first choice for a Helles, but Ayinger or Weihenstephaner 34/70 strains would also work for a Helles.

 

[Brooothru]

What about a step mash?

If you've got the gear, definitely do a step mash. Dough-in @ 55C/131F, Beta (maltose) @ 63C/145F, Alpha (dextrin) @ 70C/158F, Mash Out @ 77C/170F for a clean, dry, crisp beer. I favor 40 minutes for Beta and 20 minutes for Alpha rests and 15 minutes for mash out.

For grist, go with the best German pilsner (or your favorite; I like Weyermann Barke Pilsner or Floor Malted Bohemian), with maybe 10% Munich or Vienna and 5% or less CaraHell. Don't do a detoction, but if you want to fake one and amp up the maltiness, add NO MORE than 4 ounces of Melanoidin for a 5 gallon batch. Ferment @ 48F-50F, spund if able, lager as close to freezing (without actually freezing) as possible for at least one month, preferably much longer.

Tap, drink, enjoy. Repeat often.

Prost

 

[bwible]

Best yeast for this is Imperial harvest, which is the Augustiner strain. I wanted to brew an American lager recently and the result instantly reminded me of Augustiner helles, which was not my intention at all.

This yeast makes a grrrreat helles, as Augustiner for me is the best helles on the market, it's an easy choice for me. Big plus, I even fermented it warm and it still worked.

Grain bill, I'd go with 20% Munich 1, 80% pilsner. If no decoction, then I'd replace about 5% of the pilsner with melanoidin.

Be careful with melanoidin malt. It only takes a little to significantly darken the wort. You want a Helles to be a light color. More than a couple ounces of melanoidin malt will put you out of color range for a Helles.

 

[Miraculix]

Be careful with melanoidin malt. It only takes a little to significantly darken the wort. You want a Helles to be a light color. More than a couple ounces of melanoidin malt will put you out of color range for a Helles.

I know, but I do not care much about colour, as long as it goes into the right direction. Taste is what counts for me and if it tastes right, but is a bit darker, so be it. Otherwise there is always the possibility to do a real decoction. Of course, It can also be skipped entirely, depends on what one expects from the result. I can fully understand the Pilsner only approach. I personnaly would just want to add a little extra.

Actually, what I really would want to do, is use only one malt for this, Crisp Hana, which is the original czeck lager barley from back in the days.

 

[monkeymath]

I know everyone's set that L17 is the ultimate yeast for a Helles. That's why I used it to brew my first - and, to date, last - Helles last year: 100% Weyermann floor malted Bohemian unicorn tears, decoction, cold fermentation at 5 celsius (which took quite a long time btw). The aroma at bottling day was great, but by the time it was fully conditioned, all the lager stink was gone, and there was an unfitting aroma of red apples.

Now, there may be a million reasons why I couldn't get this yeast to sing, but I don't think anyone has ever had issues with W34/70. Half the brewers of the world consider it good enough for their beer, so why wouldn't you?
(The magnificent Eric Toft over at Privatbrauerei Schönram said that their house yeast was probably derived from W34/70.)

I think dry yeast makes a lot of sense for lagers, since you need so much yeast and don't want 10%+ of your beer to be gross starter wort (note that I don't believe in decanting). If I should ever again feel the unreasonable, masochist impulse to brew a Helles, I'd probably opt for the "Diamond Lager" dry yeast. 95 pilsner malt (nothing fancy), 5% CaraHell. Single decoction. No late hops. And then, the final trick: swap with a case of Augustiner shortly before consumption. (Note to self: just buy your Helles by the crate, you big dum-dum! You live in Munich, for Christ's sake!)

 

[Knox]

I know everyone's set that L17 is the ultimate yeast for a Helles. That's why I used it to brew my first - and, to date, last - Helles last year: 100% Weyermann floor malted Bohemian unicorn tears, decoction, cold fermentation at 5 celsius (which took quite a long time btw). The aroma at bottling day was great, but by the time it was fully conditioned, all the lager stink was gone, and there was an unfitting aroma of red apples.

I have never heard of 5C fermentation temp, may I ask for a source that claims this? A brew master I know who only does lagers don't ferment under 10C. At work we ferment our lagers at 14C as we have pressurised fermentation vessels. At home I ferment at 14-15C as I have no temperature control, but a basement that consistantly is that temperature

As for the red apple flavour, I think your fermentation temperature might have stressed the yeast and created a lot of esters. But maybe that is the way for making a Rauchbier. Smoke and Apples just go together

 

[monkeymath]

I have never heard of 5C fermentation temp, may I ask for a source that claims this? A brew master I know who only does lagers don't ferment under 10C. At work we ferment our lagers at 14C as we have pressurised fermentation vessels. At home I ferment at 14-15C as I have no temperature control, but a basement that consistantly is that temperature

As for the red apple flavour, I think your fermentation temperature might have stressed the yeast and created a lot of esters. But maybe that is the way for making a Rauchbier. Smoke and Apples just go together

I don't own any brewing textbooks, is Kai Troester good enough as a source?
https://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.p...tional_fermentation_in_a_German_lager_brewery
I could've figured I shouldn't try and replicate that process given that Kai's recipes use a higher fermentation temperature. For some reason, I got the thought in my head that fermentation temperature was the reason why each and every homebrew I've tasted lacked that typical fermentation character.

I could tell the yeast did not appreciate the low temperature, I gradually raised it after a while up to 8 or 9 celsius. But yeah, I'd advise to start off simple and then fine-tune where deemed necessary.

 

[Knox]

I don't own any brewing textbooks, is Kai Troester good enough as a source?
https://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.p...tional_fermentation_in_a_German_lager_brewery

For sure it is, I just wanted to read the justification for myself. As I have never heard of this before now. I didn't mean to put you in the spot light.

I could tell the yeast did not appreciate the low temperature, I gradually raised it after a while up to 8 or 9 celsius. But yeah, I'd advise to start off simple and then fine-tune where deemed necessary.

In all honesty, I recommend people to just ferment lagers in a corny kegs @ 1 bar pressure, at a temp of 14-16C. Then transfer it to another keg when it is done fermenting, just make sure you have 0.5 bar pressure on the serving keg, so it doesn't foam too much. Then carbonate as you normally would.

You will need a spunding valve for this type of set up. If you want to minimize the yeast transfer, you can always install a floating diptube in your fermentation keg.

 

[couchsending]

I know everyone's set that L17 is the ultimate yeast for a Helles. That's why I used it to brew my first - and, to date, last - Helles last year: 100% Weyermann floor malted Bohemian unicorn tears, decoction, cold fermentation at 5 celsius (which took quite a long time btw). The aroma at bottling day was great, but by the time it was fully conditioned, all the lager stink was gone, and there was an unfitting aroma of red apples.

Now, there may be a million reasons why I couldn't get this yeast to sing, but I don't think anyone has ever had issues with W34/70. Half the brewers of the world consider it good enough for their beer, so why wouldn't you?
(The magnificent Eric Toft over at Privatbrauerei Schönram said that their house yeast was probably derived from W34/70.)

I think dry yeast makes a lot of sense for lagers, since you need so much yeast and don't want 10%+ of your beer to be gross starter wort (note that I don't believe in decanting). If I should ever again feel the unreasonable, masochist impulse to brew a Helles, I'd probably opt for the "Diamond Lager" dry yeast. 95 pilsner malt (nothing fancy), 5% CaraHell. Single decoction. No late hops. And then, the final trick: swap with a case of Augustiner shortly before consumption. (Note to self: just buy your Helles by the crate, you big dum-dum! You live in Munich, for Christ's sake!)

Some lager yeasts can handle the cold
Fermentation method, others can’t. The Augustiner strain is one of those lager yeasts that really shouldn’t be fermented cold. It’s optimum temp is 52/54.

Any of the yeasts that Wyeast lists with a fermentation range starting at 46 can handle the cold fermentation method.

 

[Spivey24]

So, L-17 Harvest, WY 2352 Munich II, OYL-114 Bayern Lager, and WLP-860 Munich Helles Lager are all purported to be the Augustiner strain though the WLP-860 is seasonal and often hard to come by. Any one of those would be my first choice for a Helles, but Ayinger or Weihenstephaner 34/70 strains would also work for a Helles.

White Labs just sent me an email saying WLP860 will now be available year round, so I think I will give this a try next.

 

[Brooothru]

White Labs just sent me an email saying WLP860 will now be available year round, so I think I will give this a try next.

Great news! I've over-bought it for the last two years (when I could find it) and have ended up with at least one or two "left overs" that go out of date before I get around to propagating them. I'll go a few months past their Best By dates, but usually I'll just dump them and revive a frozen sample from the yeast bank in my freezer that I know had a high cell count when they got frozen.

 

[Beermeister32]

Yeasts are pretty hardy, if you are going to build a big starter, I’ve never had one not revive. 500 million years give or take - they will outlive us!

 

[Kold Brygg]

1 would depend on what you are after, altough I would go with pils and vienna. Not sure if the toasty flavour of victory would be appropriate in a beer of this type.
2 if you decoct the melanoiden malt is kinda reduntant, it is time consuming and make sure to get your calculations right. Also can be rather messy.
3 I'm not really a big lager brewer, but good old 34/70 should work fine in this.

@Erik the Anglophile I've noticed you're a big fan of the Brewly English Ale, have you tried the Brewly version of the 34/70?

It's supposedly cleaner and produces less sulphur than Fwrmentis version. There is a long thread at the Norwegian Homebrew forum.
https://forum.norbrygg.no/threads/brewly-w-34-70.44395/

 

[Kold Brygg]

1. A little Victory malt will make great beer, but if you want a true helles, then it doesn't belong at all. Same with Munich. Helles only needs pilsner malt and nothing else.
2. Decoction can darken the beer slightly, if deeper color matters to you. Otherwise, skip it. Other supposed benefits are very debatable.
3. Wyeast 2308 will make a great helles. I've had the best success with Wyeast 2206, Lallemand Diamond, and Fermentis S-189.

Enjoy.

I've never come around to brew Helles yet, maybe next winter?

Multiple Norwegian champion highly recommends Weyermann Barke in Helles.

Link in Norwegian ( non Norwegian could use Google translate if interested).
https://www.holmentoppen.no/blogs/news/er-dette-verdens-beste-lyse-lagerol-3f
The recipe
https://brewgr.com/recipe/74426/helles-angels-munich-helles-recipe

 

[Brooothru]

I've never come around to brew Helles yet, maybe next winter?

Multiple Norwegian champion highly recommends Weyermann Barke in Helles.

Link in Norwegian ( non Norwegian could use Google translate if interested).
https://www.holmentoppen.no/blogs/news/er-dette-verdens-beste-lyse-lagerol-3f
The recipe
https://brewgr.com/recipe/74426/helles-angels-munich-helles-recipe

That's a very nice recipe for a Helles, and likely very similar to what I suspect less traditional German brewers may be doing, like Magnum for the bittering charge vice Mittelfruh. Probably some CaraHell vice Victory as well. Either way, should make a wonderful beer in the style of Helles.

 

[friarsmith]

Treating myself to a liter pour of my Helles brewed in late October. I kegged this after 7 days at 54*F and it was a few points north of FG. It then rested at 60* for a week before chilling for almost two months. No CO2 added other than a bit to keep the head pressure steady when pouring. Big ole tight & creamy head. Good clarity w/o keg fining. Just time. This batch was a 2-step BIAB per my post early in this thread. Liquid Wonder Bread. Prost!

 

[beerisyummy]

Treating myself to a liter pour of my Helles brewed in late October. I kegged this after 7 days at 54*F and it was a few points north of FG. It then rested at 60* for a week before chilling for almost two months. No CO2 added other than a bit to keep the head pressure steady when pouring. Big ole tight & creamy head. Good clarity w/o keg fining. Just time. This batch was a 2-step BIAB per my post early in this thread. Liquid Wonder Bread. Prost!View attachment 754746

Beautiful beer, nice mug!

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

@Erik the Anglophile I've noticed you're a big fan of the Brewly English Ale, have you tried the Brewly version of the 34/70?

It's supposedly cleaner and produces less sulphur than Fwrmentis version. There is a long thread at the Norwegian Homebrew forum.
https://forum.norbrygg.no/threads/brewly-w-34-70.44395/

I have not, I am wanting to try my hands on a doppelbock someday, might go with that one for it.

 

[jdauria]

I know everyone's set that L17 is the ultimate yeast for a Helles. That's why I used it to brew my first - and, to date, last - Helles last year: 100% Weyermann floor malted Bohemian unicorn tears, decoction, cold fermentation at 5 celsius (which took quite a long time btw). The aroma at bottling day was great, but by the time it was fully conditioned, all the lager stink was gone, and there was an unfitting aroma of red apples.

5 celcius seems real low, I have done 9 celcius (48F) for a Helles based on recommendations from low oxygen brewing site, but you need to pitch a ton of yeast when pitching that low. Like 2 million cells per mL per degree Plato, which would be 469 billion cells for a 1.050 5 gallon batch. The good thing with that amount of yeast and the cool temp is the precursor to diacetyl does not form, so no d-rest is needed and you can ferment at that temp the whole way until FG.