Old fashioned Bavarian Hefewiezen

[Queequeg]

I will be brewing a old fashion Bavarian hefe in a week of so. I have taken the basics for the recipe from classic beer styles 7 (German wheat beer).

I have also been inspired by ambrausianum in Bamberg who make a Ruddy hefe similar to this style.

My main take away from my tasting notes where:

Maltier than a modern hefe
Darker and red coloured
Tart finish
Less prominent banana notes than most hefe
Vanilla, peaches, stone fruits, citrus

Here is a picture of said beer.

This is what I have so far

7lb weyerman Munich II
5.25lb weyerman pale wheat
O.5lb weyerman malonoidin malt
0.25lb caraaroma

Bitter with pearl hops
No aroma hops

Wyeast # 3638

I plan to mash in at 110F and then do a decocontion mash at 148F.

I will pitch at 56F and let it free rise to 63F.

I plan to ferment without an airlock and just use a piece of foil.

I am going to pitch at 0.75m cells/ml/° Plato and aerate with pure O2 for about 90 secs at 1L/mins.

I am going to naturally carbonate in the using spieze composed of 50/50 wheat and light DME.

Please don't recommend I change the malt bill to 50/50 wheat and pilsner malt, I'm not making that kind of hefe. I know that's a go recipe but I not aiming for that.

I am using the caraaroma has classic beer styles list dark Cara malt. Caraaroma should impart the reddest colour addition with the smallest quantity. I did consider carared but you need to use a larger quantity. I did consider replacing the Munich malt with red X but that is a modern malt and I don't want to depart from traditional that much.

Again I am using melanoidin to add red colour without increasing the crystal malt quality. I'm not using it as a sub for a decoction. I recently use 4% in a Vienna lager and liked how it came out.

The receipt ask for a 2 hour boil but I'm not sure I'm going to do that as I can't see the advantage.

All help and suggestions are welcome

 

[specharka]

Looks more like a dunkelweizen than a Hefeweizen. Typically dunkelweizen is 50:30:20 wheat:Munichilsner with either a small amount of caramunich or Carafa special for color. Additionally, it sounds like you’re looking to use a less banana-y strain such as WY3333 / WLP380 to take advantage of the POF+ properties. Think Aventinus Eisbock vice Schneider Weissbier.

Definitely recommend using a ferulic acid rest, single decoction with main saccharification rest around 152F, and ferment in the low 60s. Open fermentation is traditional for Weissbier but as the yeast is a true top cropper you might need a blowoff to accommodate the 30% headspace required.

 

[Queequeg]

Beer Smith estimates the colour to be 22 EBC which puts it at the lower end.

My copy of beer styles by Horst dornbush suggest 15% dark Cara wheat for a dunkleweizen.

This recipe contains 1% dark Cara: inline with classic styles 7 chapter on grist composition which says 5% light crystal or 1% dark optionally for a standard hefe.

Also looking around for a frankzikaner hefe clone (which is a similar colour, maybe a bit darker hefe) German brewing forums suggest 10% caramalt.

I think maybe there is a grey area as to what constitutes a darker hefeweizen and what constitutes a dunkleweizen.

I have fermenter with 33L volume, 21L goes into the fermenter from the kettle so I should have about 12L head space which I hope is enough. I always find the blow off produces a notable amount of back pressure which I want to avoid.

Thanks for the input btw, I agree about the ferulic acid rest. I did it in a Roggenbier and was impressed with the result.

 

[homebrewer_99]

I've been drinking Hefe Weizens since 1975.

I lived and worked in Augsburg (4 years) and worked in Bamberg (5 years), both in Bavaria, and that beer is too dark for a normal HW.

IMO, that recipe is also more complicated than it needs to be.

 

[Queequeg]

Have you drunk the beer in question in my OP?

I could drop the melanoidin.

 

[homebrewer_99]

Have you drunk the beer in question in my OP? I could drop the melanoidin.

No, but that's neither her or there. Your direct quote was: "All help and suggestions are welcome". I only added that I thought it was too dark and too complicated.

FWIW, here's a pic of mine:

 

[Horseflesh]

FWIW, here's a pic of mine:

What’s your recipe? Mine don’t come out that orange.

 

[homebrewer_99]

What’s your recipe? Mine don’t come out that orange.

Here you go:

PINKUS HEFE WEIZEN (MY VERSION)
(Brew Classic European Beers At Home, p 164)

OG: 1.050 / FG: 1.011
4.2% ABW / 5.2% ABV

WLP300 Hefe Weizen Ale yeast.
Make starter 1-2 days prior.

Ingredients:
5#, 12 oz Wheat malt
8 oz Rice Hulls
3#, 12 oz Pale malt
2 AAU Hallertau (German Traditional) hops (60 mins)
NOTE: I only use 2 AAU because I like the sweeter banana flavor and aroma. You can up the AAU to your liking.
Temperature Stepped Infusion Mash. (First water temp needs to be 10-11F higher than target).

Mash Schedule:
122F for 30 mins.
151F for 60 mins.

Second water addition AND Batch Sparge with NEAR BOILING water to raise mash temp.

Collect 6.5 - 7 gals.

Total Boil Time: 90 mins.

Boil 30 mins.
Add hops.
Boil 45 mins.
Add Wort Chiller.
Boil 15 mins.
Chill to fermentation temp and aerate.
Record Temp: F / Gravity: 1.0
Pitch yeast.

Ferment between 68-70F to completion.
(Kristall Weizen: Rack to a carboy until clear).

Prime with 6 oz Corn Sugar if bottling.
Store around 70F for 4-7 days before sampling.
When the desired carbonation level is reached place the bottles in a cold place/fridge.
MINIMUM: 48 hours, 1 week is better.

Here are some notes I recorded during a brew session:

BATCH # 1804 (18 being year, as in 2018 and batch number for the year = # 04)
OK, I’ll try my best to describe my equipment:

I use a round orange 7 gal Rubbermaid water cooler for a mash tun.

Like everyone else, my process is the result of a learning curve for the equipment I use. That’s why I described it above. Now, to the process I use for THIS recipe: (Every step is “per the recipe” so I won’t repeat it over and over, just assume it).

… Pour 3.5 gals of water at 135 into the mash tun. Slowly add the grains while stirring to eliminate dough balls.

Mash temp: 124.F for 30 minutes.

… Topped off tun (to full) with 207F water. Mash raised to 150.3F.

… Stirred at 30 mins.

… Vorlauf and rack into brew pot.

… Volume collected into brew pot: (*1 = first run)

NOTE: At this point I look at the volume collected in the brew pot. If I collect 4.5 gals and I know I want 6.5 gals to be my initial boil volume the DIFFERENCE is my Batch Sparge volume. In this case 2 gals. If I collected 4 gals and want 6.5 gals then the difference is 2.5 gals. Got it?

… Batch Sparged (as already noted above) with 160F water. (*2 = second run)

… Desired volume collected (*3 = brew pot): 6.75 gals.

NOTE: OK, the * items are temperature and gravity readings. Here’s how I write it in my notes:

1st run - T: 132 F / G: 1.044 + 15 (temperature compensation) = 1.059
2nd run - T: 143 F / G: 1.014 + 17 = 1.031
Pot - T: 132 F / G: 1.030 + 15 = 1.045

… Boil and hop per recipe.

NOTE: Every time I make a yeast starter using NEW yeast I will draw off 2 vials (using the old WLP vials) to use later to make new starters.

The remainder are notes I’ve taken for this batch:

BREW DATE: Feb 4, 2018

OG: 1.050

Yeast is active.

Feb 5: Airlock active.

Feb 11: Checked primary, yeast head still present. Seal and check later.

Feb 20: T: 65.8 / G: 1.008 (therm strip on side = 72F). 50 – 8 = 42 = 4.410% ABW / 5.513% ABV. Nice orange tinge. Very nice banana aroma also comes through in a sweet flavor also. Nice body.

Feb 25: Racked to carboy for aging and clearing. Yeast washed and used in Batch #1808.

NOTE: This is the 2nd of 3 planned batches that will be blended before bottling (Batch #1808). At this point I think Batch #1802 will be a standalone.

Mar 14: Sample tastes fantastic! Still waiting for #1808.

NOTE: #1808 is ready for racking. I know a lot of people do not rack to carboys, but I do. Sure, the HW will get relatively clear, which is my goal. When I rack the clear HW into the bottling bucket I will PURPOSELY suck up a little of the yeast toward the end, just enough to give it that cloudy appearance in the glass. Bottle re-fermentation takes care of the rest.

The amount of priming sugar you use is up to you. Just make sure you use WEIGHT because sugar in “cup” volume can compress and is not an exact measurement.

I hope my recipe and notes gives you something to think about for making a great Hefe Weizen.

Bill

This is a pic of my HW poured into the glass BEFORE the yeast is added. I did this on purpose to show how clear it is:

If these notes are confusing just email me at [email protected] and I'll send you an actual copy of my document.

 

[Queequeg]

No, but that's neither her or there. Your direct quote was: "All help and suggestions are welcome". I only added that I thought it was too dark and too complicated.

FWIW, here's a pic of mine:

View attachment 579456

I asked because I thought you would have some insight into the beer I am trying to recreate.

Although all comments and suggestions are welcome I did also say "please don't tell me to make a modern hefe of 50/50 pale wheat and pilsner"


I know that makes a good hefe and if I wanted to make that banana and clove archetype I wouldn't have started this thread.

So I appreciate that although you might not like the style I am trying to make and I will even concede the moden version is actually an better beer the Ruddy version is less widely drunk and not freely available, hence why I want to make it.

Also I find it strange that you haven't drunk that beer in 5 years in Bamberg when I drunk pretty much everything the town center has to other in three days.

 

[Queequeg]

Home-brewed 99 just to be clear I'm not unappreciative of your input and everything you have posted looks spot on regarding a modern day hefe.

However the purpose of this thread is to aim for a pre-1800's hefe before the invention of pilsner malts.

 

[homebrewer_99]

Home-brewed 99 just to be clear I'm not unappreciative of your input and everything you have posted looks spot on regarding a modern day hefe.

However the purpose of this thread is to aim for a pre-1800's hefe before the invention of pilsner malts.

I'm OK with that...no offense imparted or taken. I only posted my recipe because Horseflesh asked for it.

I've never known HW to be ruddy (red colored). Unfiltered, cloudy, yes, but not red. Even Dunkel Weizens are not ruddy (in the sense of an Irish Red).

I'm curious, where did you find this in Bamberg? I've drunk and eaten at damn near every establishment in Bamberg (9 breweries and many more in the surrounding areas and countless gasthauses), and never once saw it. Without even trying to exaggerate, I ate out for lunch almost every day and 1-2 meals on the weekend.

 

[Queequeg]

It's at ambrausianum next to schlenkerla in the old town. They list as their hefe. It's totally different to say keesman hefe, which is epic (overall best hefe but I don't think I could get even close to that).

After my first trip to Bamberg I bought classic brewing styles 7 which talks about a Ruddy hefe and then in the recipe section includes a older version of a hefe before the intro of paler malts.

 

[TallDan]

I would dump the melanoiden and cararoma, those were definitely not around in germany in the 1800s. Switch to a darker munich or increase it's percentage for color. This is definitely a beer to do a ferulic acid rest and some decoction, which could also add some color.

 

[homebrewer_99]

It's at ambrausianum next to schlenkerla in the old town. They list as their hefe. It's totally different to say keesman hefe, which is epic (overall best hefe but I don't think I could get even close to that).

After my first trip to Bamberg I bought classic brewing styles 7 which talks about a Ruddy hefe and then in the recipe section includes a older version of a hefe before the intro of paler malts.

I've had lunch there, but never saw the beer you mention.

IMO, the best Hefe Weizen in Bamberg is Bamberger Weiss by Maisel (which is not the same as Maisel Weisse).

 

[Sadu]

OP, I have also gone to considerable lengths to develop my hefe, which sounds very similar to what you have.
Mine is 60% wheat, 3% melanoidian, 0.5% carafa 2 and the rest pils. It is very nice.

I met a traditional German pro brewer recently and was talking to him about it. He swears by a pale wheat + dark Munich grain bill. Says it comes out at the dark end, not quite a dunkelweizen. But the Munich brings a lot of extra malt complexity which goes well in this style.
I haven't tried this, but plan to next time I make one. Something to think about anyway.

 

[Queequeg]

Unfortunately they have closed (2008) so you was lucky.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

I've had lunch there, but never saw the beer you mention.

IMO, the best Hefe Weizen in Bamberg is Bamberger Weiss by Maisel (which is not the same as Maisel Weisse).

Interesting discussion, I am learning much and appreciate the education!

Does anyone have any thoughts on using "floor malted" grains, and whether they would be more "traditional" or "pre-1800s," as the OP is trying to achieve?

Thanks in advance, guys -

Ron

 

[bleme]

Although all comments and suggestions are welcome I did also say "please don't tell me to make a modern hefe of 50/50 pale wheat and pilsner"

I think it is funny that @homebrewer_99 's recipe doesn't have any pilsner and isn't close to 50/50, but that's what you don't like about it...

Good timing though! I just got some Munich Classic yeast in the mail today and have Pale and Wheat in stock...

 

[MrPowers]

I would read through the information contained in this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...n-ag-cloning-paulaner-weihenstephaner.650743/

Specifically look at the link in reply number 11. There is a TON of useful information about the differences between Hefeweizen (think Weihenstephaner or Paulaner), UrWeisse (darker, maltier and more old fashioned) as well Dunkelweizen.

 

[Queequeg]

I think it is funny that @homebrewer_99 's recipe doesn't have any pilsner and isn't close to 50/50, but that's what you don't like about it...

Good timing though! I just got some Munich Classic yeast in the mail today and have Pale and Wheat in stock...

Ok captin pedandtic. My point was obvious

 

[Queequeg]

I would read through the information contained in this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...n-ag-cloning-paulaner-weihenstephaner.650743/

Specifically look at the link in reply number 11. There is a TON of useful information about the differences between Hefeweizen (think Weihenstephaner or Paulaner), UrWeisse (darker, maltier and more old fashioned) as well Dunkelweizen.

Thanks, I will take a look

Edit: so an UrWeisse looks similar to what is described in BCS7. I think I will stick to that recipe and repprt back, I think it will be lighter than ayingers urweisse maybe more like Erdingers version.

 

[Queequeg]

OP, I have also gone to considerable lengths to develop my hefe, which sounds very similar to what you have.
Mine is 60% wheat, 3% melanoidian, 0.5% carafa 2 and the rest pils. It is very nice.

I met a traditional German pro brewer recently and was talking to him about it. He swears by a pale wheat + dark Munich grain bill. Says it comes out at the dark end, not quite a dunkelweizen. But the Munich brings a lot of extra malt complexity which goes well in this style.
I haven't tried this, but plan to next time I make one. Something to think about anyway.

a vote of confidence from a german pro, definately sold on this.

What are people thoughts of dropping the cararoma for 1oz of debittered black malt, just for colour?

 

[homebrewer_99]

Unfortunately they have closed (2008) so you was lucky.

I worked in Bamberg from Feb 1999 - Feb 2004.

 

[homebrewer_99]

a vote of confidence from a german pro, definately sold on this.

What are people thoughts of dropping the cararoma for 1oz of debittered black malt, just for colour?

Just a note to let you know I'm not ignoring your question here...but I have nothing personal to offer for that recipe.

Have you checked hobbybrauer.de?


EDIT: I just got back from hobbybrauer.de. The nearest information I found concerning darker malt in Hefe Weizen's was basically browning your own in the oven. Nothing came up in my search for historical Hefe Weizen recipes (historische Hefe Weizen rezepten).

 

[homebrewer_99]

a vote of confidence from a german pro, definately sold on this.

What are people thoughts of dropping the cararoma for 1oz of debittered black malt, just for colour?

Those ingredients would be a prime example between a Dunkel Weizen (dark wheat) and a Weissbier (white beer). I prefer the later.

When I wanted dark beer I just ordered a Bock during Bockzeit. But a Helles Bock is mighty tasty too.

 

[ESBrewer]

It all depends how traditional you want to be. I think originally Weissbier was just a white beer brewed with a lightly kilned malt, usually they had just barley.. On the other hand, if you only need to go back 100- 150 years, there are recipes that have remained the same meaning that beers haven't changed so much recently. Darker versions certainly exist and those typically get some color from dark Münich malt or darker wheat. Münich also releases melanoidins and makes it maltier than versions with pilsner malt + wheat only. Roasted malt is sometimes used for color, too, but it is less common and should be kept in minimum (<1%) to avoid roasted character which is not typical. And you need to focus on the yeast, these beers are more about the yeast than they are about malts.

 

[homebrewer_99]

Roasted malt is sometimes used for color, too, but it is less common and should be kept in minimum (<1%) to avoid roasted character which is not typical. And you need to focus on the yeast, these beers are more about the yeast than they are about malts.

You're right about the roasted malt. There are Irish Stout recipes that do not use roasted malt.

 

[Queequeg]

ok, so this is what Im am going with

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Hefeweizen (Ruddy)
Brewer: Queequeg


Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 32.50 l
Post Boil Volume: 25.00 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 21.75 l
Bottling Volume: 20.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.051 SG
Estimated Color: 16.8 EBC
Estimated IBU: 11.9 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 63.50 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 70.1 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
3.50 kg Wheat Malt, Pale (Weyermann) (3.9 EBC) Grain 1 62.8 %
2.00 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC) Grain 2 35.9 %
0.07 kg Caraaroma (Weyermann) (350.7 EBC) Grain 3 1.3 %
13.00 g Perle [7.80 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 11.9 IBUs
1.0 pkg Bavarian Wheat (Wyeast Labs #3638) [124. Yeast 5 -


Mash Schedule: Decoction Mash, Single
Total Grain Weight: 5.57 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperature Step Time
Acid/glucan rest Add 24.74 l of water at 46.5 C 44.0 C 30 min
Saccharification Decoct 10.62 l of mash and boil it 64.4 C 45 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun , 14.83l) of 75.6 C water

Notes:
water profile: boiled munich
Several hand fulls of hydrated oat husks to be the mash
Acid malt to be main mash to lower pH at sacc step prior decoction

Rest decotion at 64.4 C for 10mins before bringing to boil.
Use 5 L of the sparge water (at 99C) to mash out at 70 ish
Vorlauf for 15mins for 1st and 2nd runnings

Starter: 0.75M/ml/P wy3638
Areate cool wort for 90sec pure O2

Pitch yeast at 13C and free rise to ferment at 20C
Ferment with foil and no airlock
Transfer to keg at FG+5 days
Carbonate in the keg with speize addtion of 50/50 wheat DME and Pale DME
Store at room temperature for 1 week, then transfer to to serving fridge.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Wyeast Labs #3638

I've used this yeast. Even though I prefer the Munich type, this worked well and I think you will be pretty happy with it, considering your goals.

 

[MrPowers]

ok, so this is what Im am going with

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Hefeweizen (Ruddy)
Brewer: Queequeg


Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 32.50 l
Post Boil Volume: 25.00 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 21.75 l
Bottling Volume: 20.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.051 SG
Estimated Color: 16.8 EBC
Estimated IBU: 11.9 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 63.50 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 70.1 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
3.50 kg Wheat Malt, Pale (Weyermann) (3.9 EBC) Grain 1 62.8 %
2.00 kg Munich II (Weyermann) (16.7 EBC) Grain 2 35.9 %
0.07 kg Caraaroma (Weyermann) (350.7 EBC) Grain 3 1.3 %
13.00 g Perle [7.80 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 11.9 IBUs
1.0 pkg Bavarian Wheat (Wyeast Labs #3638) [124. Yeast 5 -


Mash Schedule: Decoction Mash, Single
Total Grain Weight: 5.57 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperature Step Time
Acid/glucan rest Add 24.74 l of water at 46.5 C 44.0 C 30 min
Saccharification Decoct 10.62 l of mash and boil it 64.4 C 45 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun , 14.83l) of 75.6 C water

Notes:
water profile: boiled munich
Several hand fulls of hydrated oat husks to be the mash
Acid malt to be main mash to lower pH at sacc step prior decoction

Rest decotion at 64.4 C for 10mins before bringing to boil.
Use 5 L of the sparge water (at 99C) to mash out at 70 ish
Vorlauf for 15mins for 1st and 2nd runnings

Starter: 0.75M/ml/P wy3638
Areate cool wort for 90mins pure O2

Pitch yeast at 13C and free rise to ferment at 20C
Ferment with foil and no airlock
Transfer to keg at FG+5 days
Carbonate in the keg with speize addtion of 50/50 wheat DME and Pale DME
Store at room temperature for 1 week, then transfer to to serving fridge.

That looks like a solid recipe. I assume you meant to areate for 90 seconds rather than minutes though?

 

[Queequeg]

Lol yep, edited

 

[Queequeg]

Brewed this today. Was not my best brew day, missed target pH and temperatures. That said volumes and gravity were spot on. I also used my make shift cold liquor tank for the first time which worked a charm.

Wort and starter taste great, starter had a lot of bubble gum and citrus with a little banana and a nice tart finish.

The wort is rich and malty, lots of bready notes. It's quite dark, definitely has a red hue. I will post back with pictures and tasting notes.

 

[Queequeg]

The final result. The colour is a lot lighter than anticipated. The flavor prior the spieze addition was very citrus fruit heavy. Post spieze it's more classic banana and clove. It's not excessively malty either.

 

[Bassman2003]

I like the color though!

 

[Lefou]

The color and foam stand both look good to me.
A typical Hefeweizen is Pilsner and wheat, but I wouldn't be averse to using Vienna and Munich mixed with wheat malt. It gives the beer a depth of flavor and some nice color.