Tips on Wood Aging.

[ArcLight]

Sounds like you should be cautious adding the bourbon the spiral was soaking in. If it were me, I'd remove the spiral from the bourbon and only add the spiral, but save the bourbon it was soaking in. Then taste the beer along the way to make sure it didn't become too oaky. Then if you want more bourbon/oak flavor you can add it at bottling to taste.

3-4 ounces of Bourbon will not have much impact on flavor.

With 16 ounces there is a noticeable Bourbon taste.
With 11 ounces there is a slight Bourbon taste.

With 3-4 ounces you would have to concentrate very hard to taste the Bourbon.

The Bourbon will absorb a lot of Oak flavor though.

 

[Hoppity]

Tagged.

 

[TxBigHops]

3-4 ounces of Bourbon will not have much impact on flavor.

With 16 ounces there is a noticeable Bourbon taste.
With 11 ounces there is a slight Bourbon taste.

With 3-4 ounces you would have to concentrate very hard to taste the Bourbon.

The Bourbon will absorb a lot of Oak flavor though.

That's pretty specific. Do you have a source for this information, or is it just your personal experience? There are lots of posts here on HBT from other brewers who soak wood in alcohol. (bourbon, port, etc.) I wouldn't think they would bother unless the alcohol was impacting the flavor of their beer. This is my first time attempting this, so I have zero experience. Just trying to learn.

 

[ArcLight]

That's pretty specific. Do you have a source for this information, or is it just your personal experience? There are lots of posts here on HBT from other brewers who soak wood in alcohol. (bourbon, port, etc.) I wouldn't think they would bother unless the alcohol was impacting the flavor of their beer. This is my first time attempting this, so I have zero experience. Just trying to learn.

Yes it's specific and it's from my experience.

Alcohol absolutely absorbs tannins from wood. And it absobs flavors from spices and orange peels. Chemicals that don't readily dissolve in water sometimes easily dissolve in alcohol (that's why tinctures are popular). Beer isn't as high in alcohol as Vodka or Bourbon, so thats why they are sometimes used. Whisky can be used to add additional flavor, though traditionally it came from the aging of beer in a barrel used to age whisky.

I brought different oaked beer to the home brew club, at different times over the beers life (1 year, 18 months, 24 months, 30 months) and we saw how the flavor changed.

Depending on how much Bourbon is used it may not be detectable. With 3-4 ounces, unless you tell someone it has Bourbon in it, it's not likely it will be picked up, unless the person has a very sensitive palate. (Maybe Gordon Strong or a BJCP National level judge would pick it up?)

 

[TxBigHops]

Yes it's specific and it's from my experience.

Alcohol absolutely absorbs tannins from wood. And it absobs flavors from spices and orange peels. Chemicals that don't readily dissolve in water sometimes easily dissolve in alcohol (that's why tinctures are popular). Beer isn't as high in alcohol as Vodka or Bourbon, so thats why they are sometimes used. Whisky can be used to add additional flavor, though traditionally it came from the aging of beer in a barrel used to age whisky.

I brought different oaked beer to the home brew club, at different times over the beers life (1 year, 18 months, 24 months, 30 months) and we saw how the flavor changed.

Depending on how much Bourbon is used it may not be detectable. With 3-4 ounces, unless you tell someone it has Bourbon in it, it's not likely it will be picked up, unless the person has a very sensitive palate. (Maybe Gordon Strong or a BJCP National level judge would pick it up?)

That's some great info. Thanks! There is a popular thread here with a recipe for a Russian Imperial Stout called Kate the Great. I have taken some of the influence for the beer I'm brewing from that thread. It seems that some brewers are soaking their oak in Port, while others use bourbon. Are you saying the point of soaking the oak in alcohol is to get the wood flavor into the alcohol, so it can than be transferred to the beer, rather than to impact the beer with port or bourbon flavor? And if so, then it would be pointless to not put the alcohol into the beer. Almost seems like the alcohol is more important to add to the beer in secondary than the oak spirals! And furthermore, unless you're going to use a lot of alcohol (enough to impact the flavor per your experience), then it doesn't seem like it would even matter what alcohol you use!

 

[ArcLight]

Are you saying the point of soaking the oak in alcohol is to get the wood flavor into the alcohol, so it can than be transferred to the beer, rather than to impact the beer with port or bourbon flavor? And if so, then it would be pointless to not put the alcohol into the beer. <I agree 100%> Almost seems like the alcohol is more important to add to the beer in secondary than the oak spirals! <That could work quite well> And furthermore, unless you're going to use a lot of alcohol (enough to impact the flavor per your experience), then it doesn't seem like it would even matter what alcohol you use! <I agree>

I'll caution my answer with "Brewers will experiment and each have their own objectives. I would never say someone is wrong for trying something different or experimenting, even if I think it's not the best way"

I do think that the majority of the time brewers use oak, they want the oak flavor. While you don't have to use alcohol, alcohol will give a better extraction of the Tannins. When I used one ounce of medium toast oak cubes with 12 ounces of Bourbon, soaked for 42 days, the oak taste was over powering after adding the bourbon to my beer and aging it 6 months.

There is no reason to use expensive brands for extracting flavors, unless - may - if you use a lot of the whisky. If you use 16 ounces of Bourbon, maybe it would make a difference? Maybe not. With 8 ounces or less there is no way you can tell, unless using such a nasty tasting whisky that even alcoholics would avoid it.


I can't imagine why someone would soak oak in alcohol (whisky/vodka/whatever) and not include the alcohol.
The only reason to do that would be to extract the tannins and lessen the remaining flavor in the wood.

Why bother? Just use less wood.


As a side note - when I made my first Bourbon Barrel old ale - 3 years ago, I saved teh wood cubes,a nd poured more Bourbon on top. I still have it, and add a teaspoon to a stout now and then. Its got a great flavor.

 

[mtnagel]

I can't imagine why someone would soak oak in alcohol (whisky/vodka/whatever) and not include the alcohol.
The only reason to do that would be to extract the tannins and lessen the remaining flavor in the wood.

Why bother? Just use less wood.

I think we can all agree that this process is to mimic barrel aging, right? And when a brewer transfers a beer to a barrel, they don't add some of the bourbon, do they? Of course there will be a small amount of residual bourbon left in the barrel but it will be a much smaller % of the batch compared to if you added the bourbon that the spiral or cubes were aging in back to the beer.

So that's why when I'm using oak cubes or spirals to replace barrel aging, I soak the oak in the bourbon but I don't add the bourbon it was soaking into the beer. And then the flavor from the bourbon that soaked into the wood will get transferred to the beer when the spirals are aging in the beer. And a slight oak character will also get transferred over time.

It seems like by adding the bourbon that had the oak soaking in it, you could speed up the process, but my goal is longer term bulk storage of the beer. I'm not trying to rush it, so I want it to be able to sit on the oak for months without getting over oaked.

 

[ReverseMonk]

Hey All,
First off, great thread. Lots of good info.

I was given a couple staves from a retired red wine barrel from a local winery. Looks like the wine made great penetration into the wood, but I am also sure there is a ton of oak flavor left. I'm not a big oaked beer kind of guy, but I am a big lambic and mixed fermentation beer kind of guy. I know the oak lends itself to more fermentation interactions and complex flavors in mixed fermentation/brett beers.

I will be brewing a "lambic" very shortly. I want to age this on oak (neutral oak), and I plan to cut the stave into cubes. What would be the best process to neutralize the oak? Boil it? Soak it in white wine for a month (I am leaning toward this idea)? How many ounces should I use? I'll plan to age for a year minimum, and I'll blend with subsequent batches if I need to.

I've never used oak before, so looking for a little advice from some of you more experienced guys and gals out there.

Cheers,
Brian

 

[ArcLight]

I think we can all agree that this process is to mimic barrel aging, right? And when a brewer transfers a beer to a barrel, they don't add some of the bourbon, do they? Of course there will be a small amount of residual bourbon left in the barrel but it will be a much smaller % of the batch compared to if you added the bourbon that the spiral or cubes were aging in back to the beer.

So that's why when I'm using oak cubes or spirals to replace barrel aging, I soak the oak in the bourbon but I don't add the bourbon it was soaking into the beer. And then the flavor from the bourbon that soaked into the wood will get transferred to the beer when the spirals are aging in the beer. And a slight oak character will also get transferred over time.

It seems like by adding the bourbon that had the oak soaking in it, you could speed up the process, but my goal is longer term bulk storage of the beer. I'm not trying to rush it, so I want it to be able to sit on the oak for months without getting over oaked.

Whats the point of having the beer sit in oak for months and not pick up oak flavor?
Why not soak the oak independently and add in the extracted tannins?

Whats the point of using a "worn out" oak source?
Aging in a barrel can be problematic in that they can leak and let in Oxygen.

I think you will end up with better beer soaking the oak in some kind of hard alcohol (or wine?), than throwing away the liquid.

Bottom line - you can do anything you want, but I don't think this is an effective method.




Brewer A> I want to age my beer with X for a long time, but I don't want the X flavor to be too strong.
How do I neutralize X.

Brewer B> Why don't you just use less X, and use it full strength?

-----------------------------

Brewer X> I want hop bitterness , and want to use 5 ounces, but that will be too bitter. How long should I age the hops so I get 50 IBUs?

Brewer Y> Why not just use 1 ounce, and boil for 60 minutes, and save the other 4 ounces for something else?

 

[AnOldUR]

Whats the point of having the beer sit in oak for months and not pick up oak flavor?
Why not soak the oak independently and add in the extracted tannins?

From BYO:

A common mistake is pulling the beer off of the wood too quickly. The life cycle of a wood aging project is such that the surface character of the wood is extracted first, followed by the depth potential of the wood . . .

As stofter characteristics are extracted from the core of the wood, and as the extraction of sugars begins to subdue the sharper flavors of both the wood and the beer, a creamier mouthfeel will emerge and you'll find the wood character mellowing and blending nicely with your beer.

 

[mtnagel]

Whats the point of using a "worn out" oak source?

You've mentioned you have over-oaked your beer, right? To avoid that, that's why.

I want to bulk age longer on the oak and not adding the liquid allows me to do that.

 

[ArcLight]

From BYO:

Exactly - that's why you want to let the wood soak for a while.
Use less of the oak, and let it sit.

Letting it sit in wine/bourbon/vodka, then throwing it away loses something.

 

[ArcLight]

You've mentioned you have over-oaked your beer, right? To avoid that, that's why.

I want to bulk age longer on the oak and not adding the liquid allows me to do that.

The way you avoid over oaking is either:

A - use less oak

B - soak for a shorter time


I've heard in lectures that soaking a longer time may add different flavors.
So you may be better off using less oak and soak longer.

I soaked for 42 days with one batch, and after 30 months the flavor has changed considerably.


It would be interesting to experiment with different amounts of oak vs soaking time.
1 ounce , .75 ounces, .5 ounces [oak cubes for instance]
4 weeks vs 8 weeks vs 12 weeks

Thats 9 different beers.
Age them and taste them at 6, 12, 18, 24, 30 months.

 

[AnOldUR]

Exactly - that's why you want to let the wood soak for a while.
Use less of the oak, and let it sit.

Letting it sit in wine/bourbon/vodka, then throwing it away loses something.

From same article:

Generally the easiest way to sanitize wood is to steam it (10 minutes will suffice) or soak it in a stronger alcohol product (e.g. bourbon, sherry, port; immersing wood for several weeks). Adding both the sanitization medium and the wood to your brew can be a good idea when soaking wood in spirits or wine but should be done carefully. A small amount of the port wine that has spent two weeks soaking with wood, for instance, will add both wine and concentrated wood character to your beer, allowing the wood character to run away with the beer if not metered carefully. Adding two ounces of the spirit/wine will usually suffice for a five gallon batch. Keep in mind that the wine or spirit will leach a good deal of character from the wood, which could reduce the amount imparted to the beer in exchange for the additional spirit/wine complexity.

edit: this was from Zymurgy, not BYO

 

[ArcLight]

From same article:



edit: this was from Zymurgy, not BYO

The wine will potentially add a lot of wood character, not just a little, depending on how long it soaks and how much is used.

Notice they don't say to throw away the wine.

Now for it imparting a taste, I've never added wine to beer, so I wouldn't know.
I would not think 3 ounces of wine would be noticeable.
While the article may be correct, I have my doubts on what that article is saying.

The only way to know for sure is to do it.

Use the 3-4 ounces of Port and add it to the beer. Don't throw it away.

 

[hopsandhops]

In.

I have NB's Bourbon Barrel Porter fermenting away and after reading this thread and a few others I did the following: I soaked the 2 oz of medium-plus American oak cubes in Jack Daniels for 4 days, shaking intermittently, and then I dumped the nasty, tannic JD. I then added the soaked cubes to 16 oz of fresh Makers, where it will sit for 4-5 weeks and then I'll add the whole mixture to the keg for about 2 months before removing the oak and chilling, carbing and cold conditioning the brew.

Sound like a good plan?

 

[mtnagel]

Sounds good. I would taste along the way, but I'm assuming you know that already.

 

[hopsandhops]

I'll definitely be pulling samples along the way

 

[BeeDeeEff]

Anyone explore how the cut of the wood affects either the rate or type of flavor that is imparted?

I know when barrels are made that special care is taken to not have the end of grains exposed on the inside where the liquids can make contact, but with cubes or spirals the ratio of exposed end-grain surface area vs side grain is nowhere near simulating what occurs inside a barrel.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I used 3oz of med toast cubes in an imperial porter. I soaked them in Makers Mark until they soaked up 3/4 of a liter. This took about a month while in primary. I racked it onto the chips and let it sit for 8 weeks. I had read that it would over power the beer and it is the best I've made to date. I oak a lot of brews and like the USA oak the best. Getting ready to brew a Yeti coffe stout that I'm going to oak in a few weeks. Love the flavor of Oak!

Did you discard the bourbon or did you throw it in the keg with the oak?

Is there benefit to let the oak sit in bourbon for a few weeks before adding to the beer? (rather than just soaking a couple days)

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I think we can all agree that this process is to mimic barrel aging, right? And when a brewer transfers a beer to a barrel, they don't add some of the bourbon, do they? Of course there will be a small amount of residual bourbon left in the barrel but it will be a much smaller % of the batch compared to if you added the bourbon that the spiral or cubes were aging in back to the beer.

So that's why when I'm using oak cubes or spirals to replace barrel aging, I soak the oak in the bourbon but I don't add the bourbon it was soaking into the beer. And then the flavor from the bourbon that soaked into the wood will get transferred to the beer when the spirals are aging in the beer. And a slight oak character will also get transferred over time.

It seems like by adding the bourbon that had the oak soaking in it, you could speed up the process, but my goal is longer term bulk storage of the beer. I'm not trying to rush it, so I want it to be able to sit on the oak for months without getting over oaked.

I like your thought process on this one. Have you had success with this method?

How long do you typically soak in bourbon before adding the cubes?

I'm looking to add oak to the keg for an American Barleywine. Does 2oz of medium toast cubes using this method sound good for a noticable, but not overpowering oak character? Planning to age for 3 months at 55 degrees F

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I like your thought process on this one. Have you had success with this method?

How long do you typically soak in bourbon before adding the cubes?

I'm looking to add oak to the keg for an American Barleywine. Does 2oz of medium toast cubes using this method sound good for a noticable, but not overpowering oak character? Planning to age for 3 months at 55 degrees F

I ended up using 1.5oz of medium toast american oak cubes in 4 gallons of barleywine.

I soaked the oak for a few weeks in bourbon in a small mason jar. The bourbon tasted very harsh after soaking in the oak, so I decided to discard it (I believe this is harsh tanins from the new oak). I therefore only added the soaked cubes after discarding the bourbon.

Aged this for ~10 weeks @ 55 degrees then carbonated the keg and bottled from the keg. The oak balance seemed perfect to me. No noticeable bourbon character coming through, just nice vanilla and creme brulee notes from the oak. (I would think if you wanted actual bourbon notes then adding the spirit directly would help with that though I haven't tried it)

I entered this barleywine into the National Homebrew Competion and it did well enough to earn a silver certificate. The judges main comment for improvement said it needed more oak which seemed crazy to me as I thought there was plenty. (Note: I entered it in Categoy 33A Wood Aged. I did not enter it as a 33B specialty would aged. Which means the judges also did not pick up noticable bourbon character)

Anyways...I just kegged 4 gallons of imperial stout and am aging on 2oz of american medium plus (same method as barleywine) plus 4oz cacao nibs. Gonna let it go for ~3 months. I'll let you guys know how it turns out. We'll see if the judges advice to add more oak makes it better.

 

[secretlevel]

I've been a fan of barrel aged beers for some time, but I usually get more oak and not enough bourbon when I age my stouts on toasted and charred oak.

I'm going to try adding more bourbon per some suggestions in this thread and also age my oak staves IN bourbon for longer before adding them to beer. I'm going to attempt this since bourbon barrels hold whiskey for at least 2 years before having beer inside. Will report back in a while

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

I've been a fan of barrel aged beers for some time, but I usually get more oak and not enough bourbon when I age my stouts on toasted and charred oak.

I'm going to try adding more bourbon per some suggestions in this thread and also age my oak staves IN bourbon for longer before adding them to beer. I'm going to attempt this since bourbon barrels hold whiskey for at least 2 years before having beer inside. Will report back in a while

Think you're better off just adding a measured amount of bourbon in addition to the bourbon soaked oak.

I don't think you'll get much bourbon character even if its been soaking for a long time. The oak is way much stronger

I also found that the whiskey the oak soaks in tastes pretty harsh so I discard it and just add the soaked cubes

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

There's a couple ways to deaden the harshness. First, boil the oak for 30min. Or 2, soak in Bourbon for a week then discard the liquid and repour the bourbon. Options....

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

Thought I would reply to this thread with some updates as I've been experimenting with oak cubes some more over the past few years.

This is what I've settled on and I find it gives me consistent results with the right balance of oak flavors. (Note: I'm not shooting for bourbon character as part of this process, just oak)

Process:

• 2oz of oak cubes per 5 gallons added at kegging
• I soak the cubes in 2oz of bourbon to sanitize them about an hour before kegging
• I do not discard the bourbon, I dump in everything. (note: this has not added any harsh tannins. In the past, when I let the cubes soak in bourbon for multiple weeks, the bourbon did get tannic. I do not recommend doing an extended soak. I also don't recommend discarding the bourbon. I've gotten much fuller flavor by adding it with the oak)
• let the beer age on the cubes for 2 months minimum, but I've gone up to 5 months and its only gotten better the longer I've waited. Never over-oaked in that duration. It could probably go even longer, but I've been satisfied with the results at 5 months.

I just sampled an All Malt Belgian Dark Strong Ale I had aging on 1oz medium & 1oz medium plus oak cubes for 5 months. Here's a pic of the sample. It's the most magnificent oak aged beer I've done to date!

 

[odie]

I'm reading the OP and starting to wonder about my RIS that is overly "smokey" or overly something.

I've been using Jack Daniels smoking chips. Old JD barrels that are chipped or shredded and sold in bags for smoking or grilling. I figured they were Burbon barrels so why not? The beers came out great before.

This time the oak chips in the serving keg for a good 2 years. previous batch, same recipe, the oak chips were in the fermenter about a month and the beer was racked to a keg. this time, fermented and served in same keg.

I had assumed after a month, all the "oakness" would have been extracted and the chips would then just be "neutral" trub at the bottom of the keg.

Strange that the OP seems to indicate in a barrel for a long time is ok but a small amount of chips will over tannin the beer fast? I would have expected different.

 

[secretlevel]

Thought I would reply to this thread with some updates as I've been experimenting with oak cubes some more over the past few years.

This is what I've settled on and I find it gives me consistent results with the right balance of oak flavors. (Note: I'm not shooting for bourbon character as part of this process, just oak)

Process:

• 2oz of oak cubes per 5 gallons added at kegging
• I soak the cubes in 2oz of bourbon to sanitize them about an hour before kegging
• I do not discard the bourbon, I dump in everything. (note: this has not added any harsh tannins. In the past, when I let the cubes soak in bourbon for multiple weeks, the bourbon did get tannic. I do not recommend doing an extended soak. I also don't recommend discarding the bourbon. I've gotten much fuller flavor by adding it with the oak)
• let the beer age on the cubes for 2 months minimum, but I've gone up to 5 months and its only gotten better the longer I've waited. Never over-oaked in that duration. It could probably go even longer, but I've been satisfied with the results at 5 months.

I just sampled an All Malt Belgian Dark Strong Ale I had aging on 1oz medium & 1oz medium plus oak cubes for 5 months. Here's a pic of the sample. It's the most magnificent oak aged beer I've done to date!View attachment 842645

That's awesome, good to hear about the process. I haven't had much luck with extended aging and oak cubes (way too many tannins get extracted, tastes like sucking on a piece of oak and takes years to mellow).
Is this the original recipe or a different beer?
Also curious about the size and source of your cubes... they're all so different and surface area can vary a ton with size, which has a drastic impact on total oak extracted.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

That's awesome, good to hear about the process. I haven't had much luck with extended aging and oak cubes (way too many tannins get extracted, tastes like sucking on a piece of oak and takes years to mellow).
Is this the original recipe or a different beer?
Also curious about the size and source of your cubes... they're all so different and surface area can vary a ton with size, which has a drastic impact on total oak extracted.

I used the stavin brand you can get from morebeer here for the medium +

https://www.morebeer.com/products/american-oak-cubes-stavin-medium-toast.html

The medium toast I used were these

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07PDNG5X4?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

The recipe this time was brand new. It's an all malt belgian dark strong ale.

1.088 OG

In the past I've generally aged American Barleywines or Stouts, this is my first Belgian oaking.

I'd say that after I tasted this batch after about 10 weeks the oak gave it a very pleasant vanilla character. After letting it go the extra few months it's now much more like caramel with vanilla undertones and much less subtle. The oak is now quite prominent, but delicious. I wouldn't go more than 2oz per 5 gallons, but this is a good reference point for prominent oak character without it being harsh or tannic.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

That's awesome, good to hear about the process. I haven't had much luck with extended aging and oak cubes (way too many tannins get extracted, tastes like sucking on a piece of oak and takes years to mellow).
Is this the original recipe or a different beer?
Also curious about the size and source of your cubes... they're all so different and surface area can vary a ton with size, which has a drastic impact on total oak extracted.

One other thing I'll add about my process is it's extremely low oxygen. Wondering if oxidation contributes to unpleasant tannins. I know this can happen with dry hopping.

Perhaps you could also be picking up bits of oak if you aren't using a filter screen of sorts.

My process is to add priming sugar and oak cubes to the keg at the same time. So virtually any oxygen introduced at kegging or oaking consumed by the yeast. I also fully purge my keg before adding the oak. I use a floating diptube with a screen (Clear Beer Draught System) in the keg. After fully purging the keg with sanitizer/CO2, I attach my CO2 tank to the liquid post at about 8 PSI before opening the lid (this requires a liquid QD on the gas line) . This way there is positive pressure from the bottom of the keg up. I then quickly open the lid, dump in the oak & priming sugar and pop the lid back on. (note: For safety, make sure to pull on the PRV before opening the lid so it doesn't shoot up in your face). Then I do closed transfer from the fermenter to the keg. Once filled, for good measure I purge the headspace a few times at 30 PSI.