Time to pitch more yeast?

[Calypso]

I'm working on my first cider. I'm wondering if it's time to pitch more yeast. Here's the rundown:

Thursday (+0h): Bought 5 gallons of cold pasteurized (UV right?) cider from a mill. Added it to fermenter (along with 16 oz of sour cherry juice concentrate and 0.5 ounces of crushed mahlab), along with 5 crushed campden tablets. Covered with lid but did not seal.
Friday (+24h): Hydrated 1 packet of Red Star Champagne Yeast in 100F water, let sit for 10 minutes, then pitched. Aerated (slosh slosh slosh), hooked up blow-off, and put in tub of cool water.
Sunday (+60h): No sign of bubbling. Checked in fermenter and saw no signs of fermentation. Harumph.
Monday (+96h): Still no sign of bubbling. SG=1.053 (didn't take initial reading, but clearly not done).

Where did I go wrong? And is it time to pitch another packet of the same yeast?

 

[sanguine]

1.053 is what around what I would expect for the OG of a normal cider, so assuming there are no obvious signs of fermentation whatsoever and no obvious drop in gravity 3 or 4 days after the yeast was pitched, it seems like fermentation is just plain old not happening. I don't do cider too often, but when I do I've found it results in rapid, intense fermentation.

Unless you have some crazy high-acid apple juice or unless mahlab has some weird fungus-killing property I don't know about, the problem is probably with the yeast. My instinct is that your yeast was just DOA - perhaps the rehydration water was too hot, or maybe the packet was old. Did you add yeast nutrient? Its omission probably wouldn't completely prevent fermentation, but it certainly can't hurt.

 

[brewkinger]

If you crushed 5 Campden tablets into the batch then you WAY overdid it.
1 tablet in a 5 gal batch (and even that is a little too much) is the prescribed amount.

Perhaps others can chime in and help but I think that you need to STIR that cider and maybe even rack it to a different vessel to free up the sulfate that is more than likely killing your yeast.
That's a lot of Campden though.


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[gratus fermentatio]

If you crushed 5 Campden tablets into the batch then you WAY overdid it.
1 tablet in a 5 gal batch (and even that is a little too much) is the prescribed amount.

NOT SO. The standard dosage is 1 campden tablet PER GALLON. The OP added the correct amount for a 5 gallon batch.

My guess for no fermentation would be the must temp. OP said he put the fermenter in cold/cool water. What is the must temp? Not sure what strain of yeast you're using, but most champagne yeast is good down to about 50*F. but the colder it is, the slower it works. Might also just be lag time.

I'd take another SG reading & then go from there. Some yeast strains are sneaky & give very little indication they're working at all. If your SG hasn't dropped, I'd give it a good stir & warm it up to about 68 or 70*F. for a day or so, just enough to get it going. Also, if you haven't done so already, add yeast nutrient/energizer & DAP. I've waited 4 days for yeast to get going before, so that's nothing to worry about just yet. Did you check the juice & concentrate labels for preservatives?
Regards, GF.

 

[brewkinger]

NOT SO. The standard dosage is 1 campden tablet PER GALLON. The OP added the correct amount for a 5 gallon batch.
Regards, GF.

Now I am confused because I recently did some research and came up with the dosage of 1/4tsp K-meta (or 1 crushed campden tablet) per 5 gallons of cider. After GF posted, I did another HBT search and came up with very little specifics other than a post from Yooper on another campden tablet thread that said 1 campden per gallon.

So now I have 2 very knowledgable members contradicting what i found on the NORTHERN BREWER site as well as a cider making site.

Upon further investigation, it seems as though there is a difference between Potassium Meta and Campden (which must be sodium meta).
So the correct dosage should actually be 1/4 tsp of KM per 5 gallons OR 1 crushed Na-meta (campden) per gallon.

 

[brewkinger]

Since it seems that the Campden dosage is correct, then I second the temp related causes.

Warm it up and if it does not take off, then I would pitch again. Going on 4+ days, I would more than likely just pitch another sachet of yeast.

 

[esteban87g]

What temperature are you fermenting at? If the must was too cold, then it may take some time to get the yeast going... I would suggest stirring it up in order to release some of that s02, and then repitching. Champagne yeast starts up really quick, so I would start with checking the temperature.

 

[Calypso]

It was at about 63F for those four days. Based on youse guyses advice, I took it out of the tub and let it warm to 70F. I also picked up another pack of yeast. And after hydrating it and getting ready to pitch it, when I opened the fermenter I could literally hear the fermentation (well, gas escaping). So it must have needed that temp bump or some time.

I pitched the extra yeast, since I had it ready. Hopefully that won't cause problems.

 

[Yooper]

Upon further investigation, it seems as though there is a difference between Potassium Meta and Campden (which must be sodium meta).
So the correct dosage should actually be 1/4 tsp of KM per 5 gallons OR 1 crushed Na-meta (campden) per gallon.

Correct! Pure powdered k-meta (or its counterpart Na-meta) is powerful stuff. I tend to use 1/4 teaspoon per 6 gallons when I make up the must, and then at every other racking. This guesstimates approximately 50 ppm.

Since the tablets have binders and things in them, they aren't pure k-meta so one tablet per gallon, crushed, is the standard. In small batches, the tablets are more convenient than trying to measure out 1/16 of a teaspoon so the tablets are definitely easy to use in those cases.




Anyway, glad to hear that this batch is going now. Keep us updated on how it turns out!

 

[brewkinger]

Correct! Pure powdered k-meta (or its counterpart Na-meta) is powerful stuff. I tend to use 1/4 teaspoon per 6 gallons when I make up the must, and then at every other racking. This guesstimates approximately 50 ppm.

Since the tablets have binders and things in them, they aren't pure k-meta so one tablet per gallon, crushed, is the standard. In small batches, the tablets are more convenient than trying to measure out 1/16 of a teaspoon so the tablets are definitely easy to use in those cases.

Anyway, glad to hear that this batch is going now. Keep us updated on how it turns out!

Excellent.... I am glad that I have that straight now.
I have made the correction to another HOW TO cider thread that I have going.

Appreciate the clarification Yoop (and GF for getting the investigation going).

 

[Calypso]

I don't know if I should start a new thread for this, but anyway, I just measured the SG of my cider, and it's down to 1.003. But it smells a lot like yeasty rotten eggs. As it sits in the glass it has dissipated a bit, but I'd hate to bottle it with that smell. Anything I can do?

 

[Yooper]

I don't know if I should start a new thread for this, but anyway, I just measured the SG of my cider, and it's down to 1.003. But it smells a lot like yeasty rotten eggs. As it sits in the glass it has dissipated a bit, but I'd hate to bottle it with that smell. Anything I can do?

Yes. Add some yeast nutrient (dissolve it first in a little sample glass of water or the cider, or it'll volcano on you!) and gently stir to get it into the cider. Rotten eggs is a sign of H2S, which will ruin the cider if not treated. Usually, it's caused by stressed yeast. If you have some lees in the bottom of the carboy, rack to a new one with the yeast nutrient in the new carboy, to get if off of the old stressed yeast. That should help also.