The Gruit Beer Thread

[Miraculix]

Hi all, just catching up on this thread. Another reference for herbals and botanicals for gruits is Butch (George) Heilshorn's book "Against All Hops". He gives a good description of many different botanicals and recipes which he developed for his brewery, Earth Eagle Brewing.

I started dipping my toes into gruits last spring with an English golden ale based recipe with Sweet Gale (and a bit of Bramling Cross because I was not that daring) and it was a big hit. Working up some more adventurous recipes for small batches this spring.

I just bought this book a few weeks ago and since then never took a look into it... almost forgot about it., thanks for the reminder.

the term "gruit" is actually misleading and most of the time not used apropriately. @Susan Verberg wrote some nice papers on this topic. You can find them here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/the-gruit-beer-thread.629637/page-6#post-8337055

I highly recommend reading them.

 

[Albionwood]

1) Do some research and try to figure out approximately how much you think you should use based on the advice and experience of others. And THEN....

2) Divide the quantity you think you should use by a factor of 3 or 4, because EVERYBODY uses WAY TOO MUCH!!!!!!

I tend to agree.

For me the best way to experiment with herbal additions is to make a base beer with nothing in it, and then make very strong teas with the herbs, and then play around with a sample of the beer to find the best proportions. Pretty much what Miraculix said. (I disagree with him about the inevitability of souring though - it's quite possible to make a nonhopped beer that doesn't sour if you have good sanitation practices.)

 

[Miraculix]

I tend to agree.

For me the best way to experiment with herbal additions is to make a base beer with nothing in it, and then make very strong teas with the herbs, and then play around with a sample of the beer to find the best proportions. Pretty much what Miraculix said. (I disagree with him about the inevitability of souring though - it's quite possible to make a nonhopped beer that doesn't sour if you have good sanitation practices.)

Just to be precise, I didn't mean that it is impossible to brew a non - hopped beer without it being sour, I meant that it is unlikely that it works. Lactos are literally everywhere, your sanitation practice can be as good as possible, but without real lab conditions, you will always have some lactos in your fermenter. That's where the hops then do their job.

Sometimes herbs will suffice to inhibit their growth as well but if this isn't the case, they will ultimately chew on the sugars left by the yeast and sour the beer.

One thing might be noted as well, stronger herbal beers might get this lacto suppression from the alcohol, maybe this is the missing link as my beers are usually not above 5%.

 

[Albionwood]

Just to be precise, I didn't mean that it is impossible to brew a non - hopped beer without it being sour, I meant that it is unlikely that it works. Lactos are literally everywhere, your sanitation practice can be as good as possible, but without real lab conditions, you will always have some lactos in your fermenter. That's where the hops then do their job.

Sometimes herbs will suffice to inhibit their growth as well but if this isn't the case, they will ultimately chew on the sugars left by the yeast and sour the beer.

One thing might be noted as well, stronger herbal beers might get this lacto suppression from the alcohol, maybe this is the missing link as my beers are usually not above 5%.

I think the likelihood of lacto contamination depends a lot on the specifics of your brewing practices and equipment. It is indeed next to impossible to completely sanitize a typical plastic bucket, especially after it's been used a few times, so in that circumstance I think you're right about the near-inevitability of souring. Glass is better and stainless is best of all, as it can be heat treated. Homebrewers with that kind of equipment are capable of producing really clean beers.
Lactobacillus is actually pretty ethanol-tolerant. Higher alcohol slows it down but doesn't stop it, and some strains can tolerate up to 16% abv.
It is not so thermally tolerant though, killed at temperatures of 63C (145F), so it's relatively easy to sanitize with hot water or steam. It is inhibited by cold temperatures, so storing finished beer in the fridge helps.

 

[AndrewB]

I don't know if you have seen this paper specifically regarding beer spoilage organisms, but it appears Myrica Gale/Sweet Gale/Bog Myrtle has enough anti-microbial powers to keep lacto in check, at .8 oz/gal or 6g/l of dried leaves. Half of that wasn't enough however. While sanitizing is definitely a factor, hops do play a large roll in keeping standard home-brews sour free. They also happen to (mostly) taste great. Whether 4 oz of myrica gale / 5 gallons is going to taste good is another question, which I am hoping to answer.

Another paper shows a norway spruce tip salve and another paper on yarrow essential oil being an effective anti-microbial vs gram-positive bacteria (lacto is gram-positive). So perhaps combining spruce tips & yarrow may require less concentrations of myrica gale.

I've foraged quite a bit of yarrow & spruce tips this year. While Myrica Gale isn't reported to be available where I live, it does show up quite a bit in my state (Michigan). There is a nearby park that has an acidic bog that I am hoping to find some available. I vacation to some of the areas where it is known to grow, so I may have to make a side-trip next time I go.

Another thing to experiment with is how best to add the gale/spruce/yarrow. Just like hops, I imagine there are components that break down with heat, or need hot water or ethanol to fully extract the components we need.

 

[bernardsmith]

I think the likelihood of lacto contamination depends a lot on the specifics of your brewing practices and equipment. It is indeed next to impossible to completely sanitize a typical plastic bucket, especially after it's been used a few times, so in that circumstance I think you're right about the near-inevitability of souring. Glass is better and stainless is best of all, as it can be heat treated. Homebrewers with that kind of equipment are capable of producing really clean beers.
Lactobacillus is actually pretty ethanol-tolerant. Higher alcohol slows it down but doesn't stop it, and some strains can tolerate up to 16% abv.
It is not so thermally tolerant though, killed at temperatures of 63C (145F), so it's relatively easy to sanitize with hot water or steam. It is inhibited by cold temperatures, so storing finished beer in the fridge helps.

so if lacto bacteria are basically killed at 145 F and if you mash at 158 or thereabouts then the only possibility of introducing lacto bacteria into your wort is if your sanitation protocol is at fault. Souring is always "possible" but ale (beer sans hops) does not have to sour and indeed, I just made a single gallon batch of ale to a medieval protocol - no boil, no hops but with added heather tips and that batch was quite drinkable three or four weeks after bottling.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Whether 4 oz of myrica gale / 5 gallons is going to taste good is another question, which I am hoping to answer.

See post #234 for my experiences with bog myrtle (I must update, I'm away from my notes). It varies from vintage to vintage, but ~70g/l of fresh leaves tastes great, it has a lot of the same flavour compounds as US hops so probably wants treating the same way, some in the boil but most in the whirlpool and/or dry-myrtled. Make a tea to figure out how strong your dried leaves are, I'd imagine it could well be a ratio of 10:1 for fresh:dry equivalence.

 

[Miraculix]

I don't know if you have seen this paper specifically regarding beer spoilage organisms, but it appears Myrica Gale/Sweet Gale/Bog Myrtle has enough anti-microbial powers to keep lacto in check, at .8 oz/gal or 6g/l of dried leaves. Half of that wasn't enough however. While sanitizing is definitely a factor, hops do play a large roll in keeping standard home-brews sour free. They also happen to (mostly) taste great. Whether 4 oz of myrica gale / 5 gallons is going to taste good is another question, which I am hoping to answer.

Another paper shows a norway spruce tip salve and another paper on yarrow essential oil being an effective anti-microbial vs gram-positive bacteria (lacto is gram-positive). So perhaps combining spruce tips & yarrow may require less concentrations of myrica gale.

I've foraged quite a bit of yarrow & spruce tips this year. While Myrica Gale isn't reported to be available where I live, it does show up quite a bit in my state (Michigan). There is a nearby park that has an acidic bog that I am hoping to find some available. I vacation to some of the areas where it is known to grow, so I may have to make a side-trip next time I go.

Another thing to experiment with is how best to add the gale/spruce/yarrow. Just like hops, I imagine there are components that break down with heat, or need hot water or ethanol to fully extract the components we need.

I think the key might be what you already mentioned, the way you treat the herbs. This includes time of harvest, vintage, drying proces (or not drying at all), boilng/not boiling, leaving them in the fermenter during fermentation etc. etc.... there are many variables. Combination and amount also might play big roles.

Have a look at ground ivy as well, my only herbal beer that did not sour for longer was with ground ivy, it also tasted really good after some aging.

 

[Miraculix]

Oh and on another note, too much bog Myrtle or yarrow creates a headache... I know it from experience.

 

[Albionwood]

See post #234 for my experiences with bog myrtle (I must update, I'm away from my notes). It varies from vintage to vintage, but ~70g/l of fresh leaves tastes great, it has a lot of the same flavour compounds as US hops so probably wants treating the same way, some in the boil but most in the whirlpool and/or dry-myrtled. Make a tea to figure out how strong your dried leaves are, I'd imagine it could well be a ratio of 10:1 for fresh:dry equivalence.

If I read that aright, it was a 70g/l tea that tasted great, but you then added more to create a stronger 130 g/l tea and then added that to the wort, at about 10:1 dilution, so your beer actually contained about 13 g/l of bog myrtle. Then you added another 13 g/l post-fermentation for a total of 26 g/l in the finished beer.

In any case that's a lot more than most recipes call for. 13 g/l in a 5-gallon batch would be almost 10 ounces! Most recipes I've seen would get you around 1.5 to 3 g/l.

 

[AndrewB]

Unfortunately, the first 2 places I looked didn't have any myrica gale. There is 1 other local park with a bog walkway for me to check.

We have tons of ground ivy growing in our yard & garden. Not sure the flavor is something I want to have 5 gallons of (I only keg, don't have the bottling equipment).

I have seen a few all spruce brews, and haven't seen a mention of souring. I just got done with a spruce tip (5 oz @10 min) amber, with hops. The flavor was very enjoyable on the citrus end of things, with only the tiniest hint of pine in the background. So right now, leaning towards doing a spruce tip, yarrow, lemon grass and lemon verbena gruit, doing the additions at 10 minutes.

 

[Miraculix]

If I read that aright, it was a 70g/l tea that tasted great, but you then added more to create a stronger 130 g/l tea and then added that to the wort, at about 10:1 dilution, so your beer actually contained about 13 g/l of bog myrtle. Then you added another 13 g/l post-fermentation for a total of 26 g/l in the finished beer.

In any case that's a lot more than most recipes call for. 13 g/l in a 5-gallon batch would be almost 10 ounces! Most recipes I've seen would get you around 1.5 to 3 g/l.

I think he was refering to fresh leaves while most recipes are asking for dried leaves.

Unfortunately, the first 2 places I looked didn't have any myrica gale. There is 1 other local park with a bog walkway for me to check.

We have tons of ground ivy growing in our yard & garden. Not sure the flavor is something I want to have 5 gallons of (I only keg, don't have the bottling equipment).

I have seen a few all spruce brews, and haven't seen a mention of souring. I just got done with a spruce tip (5 oz @10 min) amber, with hops. The flavor was very enjoyable on the citrus end of things, with only the tiniest hint of pine in the background. So right now, leaning towards doing a spruce tip, yarrow, lemon grass and lemon verbena gruit, doing the additions at 10 minutes.

Let's try to be correct, it is not gruit you are talking about, gruit is actually a very narrow description and not interchangable with herbal beers. There are great papers linked by Susan Verberg on the previous page of this thread, I recommend reading them, I also did not know before.

The ground ivy flavour I got from the beer I brewed with it did not really translate directly to what I tasted when I tried the leaves. It is different. And do not throw it away if the beer tastes kind of awful directly after fermentation, the taste grately develops with a few weeks conditioning, kind of a day and night thing.

However, it is still quite a special flavour so I wouldn't recommend brewing a big batch to start with. Just buy yourself a few sixpacks of 0.5l sparkling water bottles, use the water for brewing and use the bottles for the beer. Works like a charm. Wouldn't store the beer long time in it, but a few months is fine, it is anyway just for experimentation purposes. One sugarcube in each bottle and carbonation is also sorted The easy way.... I am brewing a lot like this

 

[Northern_Brewer]

In any case that's a lot more than most recipes call for. 13 g/l in a 5-gallon batch would be almost 10 ounces! Most recipes I've seen would get you around 1.5 to 3 g/l.

I'd have to double check my notes, but something like that. But bear in mind that a) I was using (frozen) fresh leaves not dried, that I'd harvested myself and b) the heatwave last year had really killled the aroma. I didn't measure it, but it wouldn't surprise me if the 2018 vintage was 1/3 as potent as usual, it was a very odd year.

 

[AndrewB]

Let's try to be correct, it is not gruit you are talking about, gruit is actually a very narrow description and not interchangable with herbal beers. There are great papers linked by Susan Verberg on the previous page of this thread, I recommend reading them, I also did not know before.

Yes, Susan's paper acknowledges that the modern definition of a gruit is an herbal un-hopped beer (page 3):

the modern definition of gruit as generic herbal ale in contrast to hopped beer

As I am not trying to make a historic recreation of a German or Dutch gruit from the 1500s, but rather trying to make a modern beer without the use of hops. Therefor I am comfortable using the word "gruit" to describe what I am attempting. And I do find the history quite interesting, and like to see what people used as clues to inform me on ingredients that taste good without being dangerous and/or help the beer not sour. While I can use the modern supply chain to buy nearly any ingredient I want, I am trying to create something enjoyable to drink with local plants. And I am growing my own hops as another way I can achieve my goals, but I want to see what else is possible. And being able to continue my hobby without quite as much phytoestrogens is another benefit.

 

[Miraculix]

Yes, Susan's paper acknowledges that the modern definition of a gruit is an herbal un-hopped beer (page 3):

As I am not trying to make a historic recreation of a German or Dutch gruit from the 1500s, but rather trying to make a modern beer without the use of hops. Therefor I am comfortable using the word "gruit" to describe what I am attempting. And I do find the history quite interesting, and like to see what people used as clues to inform me on ingredients that taste good without being dangerous and/or help the beer not sour. While I can use the modern supply chain to buy nearly any ingredient I want, I am trying to create something enjoyable to drink with local plants. And I am growing my own hops as another way I can achieve my goals, but I want to see what else is possible. And being able to continue my hobby without quite as much phytoestrogens is another benefit.

Phytoestrogens where exactly why I got into the herbal beer thing.

But unfortunately, during my research I found out that many of the classic herbs used for brewing are also packed with them. I read that mugwort and it's relatives, sweet gale (bog Myrtle) and I think yarrow as well (not sure about this one) are actually containing good amounts of those substances as well. I am not sure how they compare to hops in regards to quantity, but it seems that it is not that easy to escape them when brewing beer.

 

[Mumathomebrew]

Does ordinary garden uk rosemary bear any resemblance to the wild sort. Forgive me if this has been covered before. I'm such a newb at this. As in I have a lot of the former, but need to make effort to obtain the latter, but will do so if it doesn't.

 

[Miraculix]

Does ordinary garden uk rosemary bear any resemblance to the wild sort. Forgive me if this has been covered before. I'm such a newb at this. As in I have a lot of the former, but need to make effort to obtain the latter, but will do so if it doesn't.

They are two completely different plants, they have only the name in common.

However, I would suggest staying away from marsh rosemary for a few reasons. First, it can be toxic, but to be fair, my research showed that this is most likely not the case.

The second reason would be, it does not add anything desirable flavor wise (at least not the one I could get my hands on).

The third reason is, the ancient beers were most likely brewed with the flowers, which are not included in what one could buy.

Or also like that either marsh rosemary or bog myrtle was used, the latter has an interesting taste and can be found online, so I would stick to sweet gale (bog myrtle).

 

[GeneDaniels1963]

The best gruit I have made to date was one with raspberry, and wormwood and herbal tea for bittering. It was too, too biter at bottling, but in a month it was amazing. I am about to do something similar with blueberries.

I tried the same general idea with an apple gruit, but it was not nearly as good

 

[cmac62]

Hey Gruiters, I am reviving this thread because I plan on brewing a Frankincense and Myrrh beer this Christmas and was wondering if anyone has used these before and what else would go well with the resinous/pine character I understand they provide. Also, I want to know how much I need to use for flavor without overdoing it.

 

[GeneDaniels1963]

Hummm... sounds interesting. my only advice would be to keep the inputs small. Those are both strong aromatics and I would hate for them to overwhelm your brew.

I have a bad habit of thinking, "if a little is good, then MORE is better..." and that is a bad way to approach aromatics in a gruuit.

 

[cmac62]

Gene, I have the same tendency. My first attempt was a regular rosemary bomb. I did email Big Rock brewing in Canada as they have done a gruit with F&M in the past. I also think i'm going to email Lost Abby as they do the Gift of the Magi yearly. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Happened to come across these recipes from Jester King, which includes their Gotlandsdricka among others using "exotic" ingredients.

 

[cmac62]

Thanks NB

 

[frankvw]

OK, so there's so much reading on gruit herbs that I haven't even managed to get through most of it (work has been challenging these past few weeks) and therefore I decided to just have a basic tasting. You've got to start somewhere. So I steeped 1 teaspoon of several herbs in a cup of boiling water (making a tea, in other words) and here are my personal taste impressions. I'm curious to see how they compare to those of everyone else here.

Gruit Herb	Bitterness (0-5)	Sweetness (0-5)	Astringency (0-5)	Vegetal (0-5)	Other
St. John's Wort	1	0	1	0	Black tea
Yarrow	2	1	2	2	Fresh garden herbs (parsley, celery, veggy soupstuff). Chlorophyll?
Meadowsweet	2	1	3	2	Aromatic. Dried leaves, mulch, autumn forest
Horehound	4	0	4	0	Woody, slight peppery notes
Mugwort	1	1	3	2	Cut grass, hay. Chlorophyll?
Sage	1	2	1	3	Dried garden herbs. Thyme? Marjoram?

So Horehound has the highest bitterness of the lot and the highest astringency (due to high levels of tannin perhaps?) while Meadowsweet and Mugwort are more astringent than anything else. The two herbs with "fresh" notes also produced the greenest tea, which is consistent with chlorophyll content.

I haven't tried the bittering compounds I intend to use (very small amounts of either Quassia or Wormwood) because a tea made from those would kill a cow at a hundred paces.

Your opinions on the above would be appreciated!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

It would be helpful for others to say as much as you can about what you're testing - source, dry/frozen/fresh, vintage if possible, that kind of thing as the flavours do depend a lot on those factors. For those that haven't seen it Frank started another thread here where some of these things were discussed.

Also people's idea of a "cup" vary a lot - can you measure the volume either directly or by filling it on a scale and converting on the assumption of 1g=1ml?

For the bittering - just use less herb and more water! You need to calibrate at some point before doing it for real.

 

[cmac62]

Thanks Frank, that is helpful. I have wormwood, marsh labrador, white sage, and both frankincense and myrrh to try. I've been thinking I want to use at least an ounce of hops for the antimicrobial benefits. Maybe make a small batch first.

 

[cmac62]

I'm guessing one tsp to one cup means volumetric measurements.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Doesn't myrrh have quite a bit of anti-microbial effect?

I'm guessing one tsp to one cup means volumetric measurements.

But what sort of cup? It's one of those yucky units that means different things in different countries - in the US it's 236ml, in much of the Commonwealth it's 250ml, in some other countries it's 200ml and in the UK it's so archaic that anyone under 50 just uses ml, if a cup is used for measuring then it's "the volume of whatever drinking vessel comes to hand". I've no idea what the convention is in South Africa, or indeed whether Frank was using it in a formal sense (if it was a British writer then I would assume not).

 

[frankvw]

It would be helpful for others to say as much as you can about what you're testing - source, dry/frozen/fresh, vintage if possible, that kind of thing as the flavours do depend a lot on those factors.

Good point!

• All herbs were dried
• All herbs were well within their "use by" date (at least 10 months before expiry date)
• All herbs were obtained from the same supplier in South Africa, who imports from Germany (i.e. the herbs would have been sourced from their countries of origin and then exported to South Africa, where I live, through Germany);
• One level teaspoon of each herb was added to a cup (250mL) of boiling water (which boils at 94 degrees C at the altitude that I am at) and steeped for exactly five minutes, then tasted without removing the herbs from the steeping water, using a teaspoon to keep the bits in the liquid

Yes, this could have been more precise: using weights instead of volumes; ensuring the cup is at exactly the same temperature for each herb, and so on. However, tasting is subjective in any case, so working according to the standards appropriate for accurate lab analysis seems a bit superfluous here.

For the bittering - just use less herb and more water! You need to calibrate at some point before doing it for real.

I'll experiment with that too, but later when work is less pressing. I'll probably end up steeping Quassia and Wormwood and diluting that (starting with, say, a drop of extract per cup of water) to assess the character of their bitterness.

 

[frankvw]

Thanks Frank, that is helpful. I have wormwood, marsh labrador, white sage, and both frankincense and myrrh to try. I've been thinking I want to use at least an ounce of hops for the antimicrobial benefits. Maybe make a small batch first.

I'm in South Africa were I can't get all that. So I'm focusing on what I have (which should be more than enough to get me started towards a good gruit beer) an take it from there.