Beer vs Ale using cold brew black tea

[robint]

Hi Brew bros
I was browsing some early history of brewing (ukwise). BTW the official word is that Ale was first brewed from various wild/ bakers/honey yeasts and was a relatively low ABV 3-4% so it brewed out quickly in a matter of days given 70F comfort (or sunshine), but it was fragile and quickly became tainted, till a vine herb called hops was found (amongst many other herbs tried btw) and gave a sanitising effect on beers so it kep longer, also added a bittering taste which was judged an improvement (try tasting plain flat weak ale that been let around for a day. So much much reviled by the antipodeans warm flat p8ss.

However my point is that not all Ales used hops especially in europe. So I wondered if cold brewed black tea could be used instead (this is teat kept cold brewing in the fridge for 24 hrs - the advantage is that the original flavours are unchanged and tannin is not leached out giving a sour taste to tea (noticeable if you leave a pot of teat to brew for say 1/2 hour - strongly and often needs added boil water to make palatable).

I have been using this method to produce cold pressed fresh fruit juices with 50% tea and 10% ginger juice. I noted that the juice came out very palatable with a slight bite and importantly it remained wholesome for 5 days in drinking flask without annoying fermentation and a tendency to vinegar. A useful simple method IMHO as I hate the commercial offerings with chemicals and sweeteners and pasturisation

So thats where I am coming from Guys what do you think?

 

[Broken Crow]

Honestly I'm trying to figure out what you're going for. I've looked at your other posts and you don't seem to be making any clear distinctions between fermentables and bittering agents. Could you maybe post your whole proposed recipe so we have some idea of what it is your goal to produce?

 

[robint]

Yes point taken, I do ramble on
What I am saying is - replace hops with cold brew tea liquid (for bittering and ginger juice for disinfectant preservative. The wort main brew is up to you - it can be malted barley/wheat etc (for a traditional Ale (country style) or a cold pressed fruit juice of your choice (were hops ever used with fruit juice?)

Its just that I am very taken with my cold pressed fruit juice method and wanted to expand on it to make a low ABV drink (maybe lightly carbonated)

Does it make sense?

Have you ever tasted Elderflower wine? Magic

 

[Rish]

I've never heard of anyone trying what you are asking about. Sounds kind of interesting. I suggest you try a small batch and let us know how it turns out. Good luck!

 

[madscientist451]

A quick google search turned up more than I thought there would be on using tea in beer. Here’s a few, but there’s much more out there:
https://www.craftbeer.com/craft-beer-muses/tea-beers-steeping-hot

https://grainfather.com/brewing-with-tea/


https://vinepair.com/articles/homebrewing-with-tea/

https://beerandbrewing.com/brewing-with-tea-including-a-recipe-from-edmunds-oast-brewing-co/

 

[robint]

w.craftbeer.com/craft-beer-muses/tea-beers-steeping-hot
Holy Guano Batman
Q

Hot Loins | Short’s Brewing Company | Bellaire, MI​

Short’s describes Hot Loins as an “experimental specialty aphrodisiac ale” brewed with “In the Mood” tea from the brewery’s northern Michigan neighbors, Light of Day Organics Tea Farm. The tea is a blend of organic roses, damiana, ginger, cinnamon, passion flower, partridge berry and muira puama herb. It’s also brewed with dark sweet cherries, honey and goji berries to give it a deep pink color and a true tea quality.

Has anything else been left out. This isnt hopped Ale its HYPED

 

[Peebee]

I had a quick search on the Web for "bitter tea", but I wasn't very hopeful; I don't find tea noticeably bitter. I did find a lot of this sort of thing:

Some teas—green teas, in particular—have a bitter (aka “astringent”) flavor ...

Are you making the same mistake? It's very common; many people can't tell the difference between "bitter" and "astringent". It's very easy; "bitter" is a taste, "astringency" is a feeling. "Astringency" is NOT a taste. I'm always whinging about this topic (and others ... actually, I just like whinging and moaning). But, may also be that perhaps I'm not very sensitive to "bitter" and you are correct thinking tea is "bitter"?

I've got a post here (recently!) that summarised my tangling with "historical" ale: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/1880-whitbread-porter.666707/post-10413871. The thread was mostly about Porter and Brown Malt, but I was connecting back to 17th C. ale (hopped by then). I'm impressed you're not making the usual mistake of thinking ale is beer without hops. And you're correct that it wasn't particularly strong. But one thing you don't mention (from a UK standpoint at least), ale was considered "liquid bread" and was encouraged for farm labourers, kids (!) and soldiers (!!!). I only attempted Ale once, based on the oldest "recipe" I could find (1736 London and Country) for "Stitch" ... a notorious drink, it had an estimated OG of 1.070-1.090! But, applying what I'd learnt, I had an FG of 1.035. And the unfermentable dextrin in the ale is not sweet! Flippin' fattening though! "Ale" will never be a regular thing for me!


I recognise the "International" explanation of the "coming of hops" in your original post. It was much easier viewing it from the English view point: Hops were the demon's herb, and we kept it out of our ale until immigrant labourers (15th C. Dutch) taught the English to like them, and cultivate them. So, for the Brits there's no gradual introduction, it just happened overnight (relatively).


Just seen your (@robint) new post. But that sounds like an elaborate "gruit" rather than hop-bittering substitute.

 

[kevin58]

w.craftbeer.com/craft-beer-muses/tea-beers-steeping-hot
Holy Guano Batman
Q

Hot Loins | Short’s Brewing Company | Bellaire, MI​

Short’s describes Hot Loins as an “experimental specialty aphrodisiac ale” brewed with “In the Mood” tea from the brewery’s northern Michigan neighbors, Light of Day Organics Tea Farm. The tea is a blend of organic roses, damiana, ginger, cinnamon, passion flower, partridge berry and muira puama herb. It’s also brewed with dark sweet cherries, honey and goji berries to give it a deep pink color and a true tea quality.

Has anything else been left out. This isnt hopped Ale its HYPED

Well, first of all the website also says the ingredients change every year so it's going to be hard to pin down. Secondly they never said that tea replaces hops... and the ginger is only mentioned in the 2023 edition. I believe it is still hopped with those other ingredients used as adjuncts and flavoring.

 

[robint]

I had a quick search on the Web for "bitter tea", but I wasn't very hopeful; I don't find tea noticeably bitter. I did find a lot of this sort of thing:



Are you making the same mistake? It's very common; many people can't tell the difference between "bitter" and "astringent". It's very easy; "bitter" is a taste, "astringency" is a feeling. "Astringency" is NOT a taste. I'm always whinging about this topic (and others ... actually, I just like whinging and moaning). But, may also be that perhaps I'm not very sensitive to "bitter" and you are correct thinking tea is "bitter"?

I've got a post here (recently!) that summarised my tangling with "historical" ale: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/1880-whitbread-porter.666707/post-10413871. The thread was mostly about Porter and Brown Malt, but I was connecting back to 17th C. ale (hopped by then). I'm impressed you're not making the usual mistake of thinking ale is beer without hops. And you're correct that it wasn't particularly strong. But one thing you don't mention (from a UK standpoint at least), ale was considered "liquid bread" and was encouraged for farm labourers, kids (!) and soldiers (!!!). I only attempted Ale once, based on the oldest "recipe" I could find (1736 London and Country) for "Stitch" ... a notorious drink, it had an estimated OG of 1.070-1.090! But, applying what I'd learnt, I had an FG of 1.035. And the unfermentable dextrin in the ale is not sweet! Flippin' fattening though! "Ale" will never be a regular thing for me!


I recognise the "International" explanation of the "coming of hops" in your original post. It was much easier viewing it from the English view point: Hops were the demon's herb, and we kept it out of our ale until immigrant labourers (15th C. Dutch) taught the English to like them, and cultivate them. So, for the Brits there's no gradual introduction, it just happened overnight (relatively).


Just seen your (@robint) new post. But that sounds like an elaborate "gruit" rather than hop-bittering substitute.

Well said Peeb, good points made
Traditional brown Ale - hmm forgotten what that was like? Manns?
How did you end up with a load of dextrin?
Followed up your other posts on old brown Ale. Cant remember what that was like? Manns? You certainly have done some history

I was weaned on Fullers London Pride. Sorry to say its now a very watered down imitation of the original now that the Japanese Asahi accountants have meddled with the recipe (but Asahi make some fine rice beers) which the Cousins copied in their Merican IPAs (Buweiser only recently admited they used some 20% rice in their wort heh heh

 

[Peebee]

Traditional brown Ale - hmm forgotten what that was like? Manns?

Shot a bit wide of mark there! Maybe Double Maxim, or Sam Smith's Nut Brown ... but both fairly "modern" (representing late 19th to early 20th C.). If there could be a "historical" brown ale, then "mild ale" nicked its spot; "mild" referring to "unaged", "ale" being just that ... all ale was "brown"! (Or, all malt to make ale could be described as "brown malt", going back 400ish years the actual colour was pretty immaterial, it was just "malt".

How did you end up with a load of dextrin?

I did it by manipulating the mash temperature (I'll look up the temperature later ... over 70C) and yeast selection. S-33 was my choice of yeast ... fairly neutral flavoured but very adverse to fermenting dextrin (malt-triose to be more specific) (some yeast, like Windsor, fail on the "very" requirement). I wouldn't want the yeast to exhibit a strong character, because who could suggest a suitable character? Folk of the time didn't know what it was ("God-is-good" is one suggested name), just that there was something (and they were pretty creative when it came to inventing and naming a mythical or spiritual "thing").


But do remember, I've only brewed one such "Ale". That'll be one more than the vast majority of brewers. But it's still only one!

 

[robint]

Hi Peeb - still wrapped up with Colonial williamsburg - such a fascinating tract.

But this Dextrin thing that beefs up the FG but has no taste and doesnt ferment. So is this like making a boiled vegetable thin soup and then thickening it with some cornflour - is that what you would call "mouth feel"?