The Gruit Beer Thread

[Miraculix]

Which brings up an interesting point. Hop bitterness is often reduced over time, mainly by the oxidation of alpha and beta acids. Gruit bitterness, on the other hand (e.g. from Wormwood or Quassia) is not based on alpha or beta acids but on other compounds. This suggests they respond differently (if at all) to oxidation.

Does anyone here have any practical data on the evolution of gruit bitterness over time during maturation?

Well.....

I brewed this 5 years 11 months ago and it is still as bitter as I remember day 1. I think I've finally resigned myself that I should dump the keg. It's an herb beer rather than Gruit as defined here in this thread.

Forever Bitter - 5.5 gallon batch size
75 minute boil

Ingredients:
5.5 lb Pilsner
4 lb 4 oz Red Wheat Malt
1 lb 4oz Smoked Malt
1 lb 4 oz Wheat Malt Dark
4 oz Acid Malt

0.5 oz Strisslespalt - Boil 60 minutes

Herbs - Boil 10 minutes
5 g Juniper
5 g Wormwood
4 g Marjoram
5 g Rosemary
1 g Bay Leaf

Wyeast 1214 Belgian Ale yeast (with starter)

Measured OG = 1.060, Measured FG = 1.010

Not sure how much wormwood @coopbrews used, but if it's anywhere near 5 grams, you can save yourself the nearly 6 years and move on...

The taste is really good at the start, but then quickly falls into an overwhelming bitterness that stays with you for sometime.

So yeah, I agree. Wormwood is HARDCORE!

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

Luke, you kept a beer in a keg for almost 6 years!! Dang that is commitment. LOL Maybe 1 gram or wormwood is a starting point? how were the other additions flavor and balance minus the extreme bitterness?

Ha! Well I’m a stubborn optimist at heart. I would recommend a tea as stated elsewhere here honestly. I would have never that that small amount would be so potent.

My memory of the exact flavor profile is a bit hazy perhaps due to the utter domination of the bitterness at the end. I still have it though so I’ll see if I can work up the nerve to try it again over the weekend.

 

[monkeymath]

I recently visited a friend in Muenster, Germany, and they actually have a couple of breweries that specialize in Gruit beers, namely Gruthaus and Kemker Kultuur.
Apparently, the region has a rather rich history with these beers (I mean, yes, probably most places do). I didn't get a chance to visit either brewery, though, due to a Covid-19-related partial lockdown, and none of the places seemed to carry their Gruit beers (I bought a rather underwhelming "Pumpernickel Porter" by Gruthaus). Has anyone here had their beers?

Gruthaus linked the following interesting article on their website:
The Gruit and the Good

 

[Miraculix]

I recently visited a friend in Muenster, Germany, and they actually have a couple of breweries that specialize in Gruit beers, namely Gruthaus and Kemker Kultuur.
Apparently, the region has a rather rich history with these beers (I mean, yes, probably most places do). I didn't get a chance to visit either brewery, though, due to a Covid-19-related partial lockdown, and none of the places seemed to carry their Gruit beers (I bought a rather underwhelming "Pumpernickel Porter" by Gruthaus). Has anyone here had their beers?

Gruthaus linked the following interesting article on their website:
The Gruit and the Good

Why didn´t I ever hear about this? I live in Bremen, so Muenster is not that far off, thanks for mentioning it, I will check them out!

 

[Miraculix]

I recently visited a friend in Muenster, Germany, and they actually have a couple of breweries that specialize in Gruit beers, namely Gruthaus and Kemker Kultuur.
Apparently, the region has a rather rich history with these beers (I mean, yes, probably most places do). I didn't get a chance to visit either brewery, though, due to a Covid-19-related partial lockdown, and none of the places seemed to carry their Gruit beers (I bought a rather underwhelming "Pumpernickel Porter" by Gruthaus). Has anyone here had their beers?

Gruthaus linked the following interesting article on their website:
The Gruit and the Good

Uff.... quite expensive! I mean, not unreseanable, given the ongoing costs and that these beers tend to age for more than one year, still 100 Euros for 9 bottles is quite some money. However, I like the way they are doing their thing. It is awesome to see that somebody is reviving the old ways and even more awesome to read that one day an old guy dropped buy, so old that he had these old beers himself back in the days, saying that the brewery nailed the old traditional styles. I will certainly buy something from them!

 

[monkeymath]

Uff.... quite expensive! I mean, not unreseanable, given the ongoing costs and that these beers tend to age for more than one year, still 100 Euros for 9 bottles is quite some money. However, I like the way they are doing their thing. It is awesome to see that somebody is reviving the old ways and even more awesome to read that one day an old guy dropped buy, so old that he had these old beers himself back in the days, saying that the brewery nailed the old traditional styles. I will certainly buy something from them!

Yeah, the prices of such beers are often a bit hard to swallow. I don't think anyone is getting rich from doing this (quite the contrary), and it seems like they are genuinely passionate about what they do. Of course, this is an absolute niche: sour beers are gaining popularity, even here in Germany, but still hardly anyone buys them by the crate. And gruit beer is even more obscure...

I haven't yet bought anything from them, mainly because I have way too much beer at home already. Once I have "worked my way through that", I might give it a shot - although, honestly, my expectations aren't all that high and you could get some wonderful 3fonteinen beers at the same price...

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

Luke, you kept a beer in a keg for almost 6 years!! Dang that is commitment. LOL Maybe 1 gram or wormwood is a starting point? how were the other additions flavor and balance minus the extreme bitterness?

OK so finally worked up the courage to take a sample from the keg... after I finished cleaning the floor and a few other surfaces due to a complete lack of judgement and thinking relieving a fully carbonated nearly full keg at room temperature through the PRV would be a good idea. Once my walls and pride were back in place, I wised up and pulled a gravity sample into a large jar using a generous length of tubing and a ball lock fitting.

The gravity had dropped down to 1.002 indicating that something other than the original WY1214 might have found a meal. WY1214 is a good attenuator but not that good from past experience. The beer was not tart or sour at all, I suspect some strain of Brett.

With regards to taste, I got the following. First 3-4 seconds were pleasant, juniper came through, some characteristic esters of clove, etc. from the 1214, and then a general "herbal" that I can't describe that I would guess is contributed to the marjoram, rosemary, and bay leaf. All in all quite pleasant, however on the 5-6 seconds onwards all of that is immediately wiped from your memory as the bitterness absolutely dominates. I kept trying to pinpoint the other flavors, but I just simply couldn't think fast enough before I was again succumbing to the wormwood obliteration.

Anyway, I probably won't age it another 6 years.

 

[cmac62]

Have you tried mixing it with something else. Usually when doing this I use Coors Banquet because it is a light simple pallet to blend, nothing in your face.

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

Have you tried mixing it with something else. Usually when doing this I use Coors Banquet because it is a light simple pallet to blend, nothing in your face.

I like that idea, although I suspect the dilution might need to be 3 to 1, and I'm not sure I want to buy that much Coors.

 

[cmac62]

I like that idea, although I suspect the dilution might need to be 3 to 1, and I'm not sure I want to buy that much Coors.

Of course you could brew a mild or blonde and mix it with that when you are in the mood.

 

[cmac62]

I know a lot of gruit beers are hop free, but this is not a requirement. On my next one, I think I'll use 1 oz of some mid level AA hop at 60 minutes for its bittering and antimicrobial properties, then use some of the other herbs for additional flavor. I like the idea of juniper, rosemary and bay. I have some marsh rosemary/Labrador to play with. I also bought some frankincense and myrrh to brew a xmas beer, but didn't get around to it for this year. Maybe brew that one next summer and put it in bottles for xmas. I know there are a couple of breweries using these for bittering, but not yet sure how much to use. I guess more tea is in my future.

 

[cmac62]

I recently visited a friend in Muenster, Germany, and they actually have a couple of breweries that specialize in Gruit beers, namely Gruthaus and Kemker Kultuur.
Apparently, the region has a rather rich history with these beers (I mean, yes, probably most places do). I didn't get a chance to visit either brewery, though, due to a Covid-19-related partial lockdown, and none of the places seemed to carry their Gruit beers (I bought a rather underwhelming "Pumpernickel Porter" by Gruthaus). Has anyone here had their beers?

Gruthaus linked the following interesting article on their website:
The Gruit and the Good

Thanks for the link Monkey. That was a great read. Also buoys my note above that hops are no out of place in a gruit beer. Fascinating that they used ancient poo to find the ingredients of a drink from so long ago.

 

[cmac62]

Technically urine I would guess. LOL

 

[R-B-Y]

bit of a necro, but anyway:
I‘ve found some little cigar-shaped things of chinese incense, which is apparently a variety of mugwort. An entire box packed to the brim, cut and dried, for a very reasonable price. Smells very earthy and savoury. I plan to use this in conjunction with some dandelion and chicory root “coffee“ from the supermarket, with some zests or other seasonings for flavouring to brew a strong porter. How do you gents rate my chances at this?

 

[Miraculix]

bit of a necro, but anyway:
I‘ve found some little cigar-shaped things of chinese incense, which is apparently a variety of mugwort. An entire box packed to the brim, cut and dried, for a very reasonable price. Smells very earthy and savoury. I plan to use this in conjunction with some dandelion and chicory root “coffee“ from the supermarket, with some zests or other seasonings for flavouring to brew a strong porter. How do you gents rate my chances at this?

These things are used for moxibustion (they are burnt) and as they are from China, I wouldn't trust them for consumption. Go outside, pick some fresh mugwort or buy some online that is intended to be eaten.

 

[R-B-Y]

These things are used for moxibustion (they are burnt) and as they are from China, I wouldn't trust them for consumption. Go outside, pick some fresh mugwort or buy some online that is intended to be eaten.

I’ve inhaled great quantities of the smoke of this and can attest to their quality… they do come from a reputable vendor. Not everything that comes out of china is automatically unsafe

 

[Miraculix]

I’ve inhaled great quantities of the smoke of this and can attest to their quality… they do come from a reputable vendor. Not everything that comes out of china is automatically unsafe

Do you know the farmers that grew it? If not, you don't have enough information to eat it.

Because it's meant to be burnt, not eaten so there might be additional stuff inside, which is not mugwort. Not even speaking of potential herbicides, pesticides etc.

To me, it would be a complete no go from the start, especially thinking that mugwort basically grows everywhere and can be easily collected from the nicest places you can find it at.

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

I would tend to agree. Regardless of country of origin, this seems unwise. Too many other great sources of unique and safe spices.

An herb beer Porter sounds like a cool idea though! But I would agree with Miraculix, stick to ingredients that you know for certain what they are. Just because something is safe as incense does not mean it is safe to ingest.

 

[R-B-Y]

Fair points. I've swapped out the mugwort for sage and tarragon, and put in more dandelion to compensate for bitterness. I'll post a picture when it's done

 

[R-B-Y]

Uncarbonated as of yet. Smells mostly of molasses and dried fruit. I’m not sure if I actually like it though, the chicory and dandelion give it a little strange herb note and it’s kinda sour, like black coffee. It also seems to be missing some of the taste I associate with “beer”, though this could be from lack of carbonation more than anything. Perfectly drinkable though, free from any offensive off-flavours as far as I can tell. I imagine it would taste good with milk.

 

[cmac62]

^^ Ice cream.

 

[Albionwood]

the chicory and dandelion give it a little strange herb note and it’s kinda sour, like black coffee.

I think you said the chicory and dandelion was from a "coffee substitute" so this doesn't sound like a surprising result.

The one time I tried roasted dandelion root I found it to have a very harsh roast character and not much else. Unroasted dried dandelion root on the other hand can provide an interesting but very mild earthy character and has a pleasant aroma; it takes a lot to get much effect. Sometime I'd like to experiment with toasting it to a lighter color and see if there's a sweet spot where you get more flavor without that harshness.

Chicory I haven't tried. A small addition of the stuff used to make Thai coffee might be interesting.

What was your recipe?

 

[Knox]

Hey fellow gruitineers,

In the new year I plan on starting my gruit brewing again, they were sadly put on pause as I had to move to my new house. But now that this is over, I can begin again.

I have made two gruits so far, a yarrow and elderberry gruit. Below is a brief summary of each brew.

My yarrow gruit was a smash gruit (I just realised smash still works for gruits) where I seperated the leaves/stems and flowers. I used the 12g of leaves to bitter with and 30g of the flowers for aroma. The gruit came out light, citrusy and slightly anis like in aroma. A pleasant combination. The flavour was dominated by citrus, herbal and floral flavour. It had a straw like colour and the yarrow didn't contribute any colour to the beer.

My elderberry gruit was more an accident then planned. I was making an Ebulon from "The Homebrewers Almanic" by Marika Josephson, and I simply forgot to add the Nugget as other things were happening in the house. I did add the hops at the end of the boil together with the 1,5 kg of elderberries. The beer ended up being 11% and sour because of the oxalic acids elderberries contain. However the beer came out a dark burgundy, alcoholic and sour, with a faint berry note at the end. I have a single bottle left from that brew that I plan to open sometime next year for new years.

My next gruit is going to be a recipe made by a danish blogger Raabryg (they do not seem to be active anymore, sadly). It is a sweet gale gruit with a small addition of hops in it. I have attached the recipe as a PDF.
Sweet gale is pretty popular in Danish spirits, often you will see spiced snap that contain it and a single brewery really popularised it in their "Porse Guld" by Thisted Bryghus.

What really got me in the gruit mood was the gruit "Old Ale" by Frederiksberg Bryghus. It is such a good balance of savoury flavours that don't compete. If you get the chance to drink it, do so! It is fantastic.

 

[Miraculix]

Hey fellow gruitineers,

In the new year I plan on starting my gruit brewing again, they were sadly put on pause as I had to move to my new house. But now that this is over, I can begin again.

I have made two gruits so far, a yarrow and elderberry gruit. Below is a brief summary of each brew.

My yarrow gruit was a smash gruit (I just realised smash still works for gruits) where I seperated the leaves/stems and flowers. I used the 12g of leaves to bitter with and 30g of the flowers for aroma. The gruit came out light, citrusy and slightly anis like in aroma. A pleasant combination. The flavour was dominated by citrus, herbal and floral flavour. It had a straw like colour and the yarrow didn't contribute any colour to the beer.

My elderberry gruit was more an accident then planned. I was making an Ebulon from "The Homebrewers Almanic" by Marika Josephson, and I simply forgot to add the Nugget as other things were happening in the house. I did add the hops at the end of the boil together with the 1,5 kg of elderberries. The beer ended up being 11% and sour because of the oxalic acids elderberries contain. However the beer came out a dark burgundy, alcoholic and sour, with a faint berry note at the end. I have a single bottle left from that brew that I plan to open sometime next year for new years.

My next gruit is going to be a recipe made by a danish blogger Raabryg (they do not seem to be active anymore, sadly). It is a sweet gale gruit with a small addition of hops in it. I have attached the recipe as a PDF.
Sweet gale is pretty popular in Danish spirits, often you will see spiced snap that contain it and a single brewery really popularised it in their "Porse Guld" by Thisted Bryghus.

What really got me in the gruit mood was the gruit "Old Ale" by Frederiksberg Bryghus. It is such a good balance of savoury flavours that don't compete. If you get the chance to drink it, do so! It is fantastic.

That sounds great!
However, that's not really a gruit. It's a herbal beer. When starting this thread, I wasn't aware of the meaning of gruit either, Susanns papers which are linked to on this thread, are a great source of information regarding this specific topic.

Anyway, glad to see that somebody is continuing on the herbal beer path! My all time favourite is ground ivy, if you can find out somewhere, try it alone first, just like you did with the yarrow. First few weeks in the bottle of can taste weird, bit after some time, just goodness remains.

 

[Knox]

That sounds great!
However, that's not really a gruit. It's a herbal beer. When starting this thread, I wasn't aware of the meaning of gruit either, Susanns papers which are linked to on this thread, are a great source of information regarding this specific topic.

Thanks for the info, I will check out the papers. If I like the brew, I might only use Sweet Gale next time.

The picture from the blog post makes it look quite appetising, so I hope I will get a similar colouration.

Anyway, glad to see that somebody is continuing on the herbal beer path! My all time favourite is ground ivy, if you can find out somewhere, try it alone first, just like you did with the yarrow. First few weeks in the bottle of can taste weird, bit after some time, just goodness remains.

I will! Now I have a forest for a backyard, so I will probably find some. Another herb I would like to try would be Woodruff. It makes a delish syrup for pancakes and I hear it is a common Berliner Weisse flavouring.

What you are describing with the bottling is known as "bottle shock" in the industry. It happens to most products, where it seems like the product needs to "relax" after being bottled. I often experience this twice with our beers at work, first when we transfer them to the lagering tank and then when we bottle. They taste weird until a few weeks in.