The Gruit Beer Thread

[frankvw]

Doesn't myrrh have quite a bit of anti-microbial effect?

Not sure. I can't get it here, so I'm looking at Sage for that purpose. Shame... Myrrh combined with Frankincense would make for a good Xmas beer!

But what sort of cup? It's one of those yucky units that means different things in different countries - in the US it's 236ml, in much of the Commonwealth it's 250ml, in some other countries it's 200ml and in the UK it's so archaic that anyone under 50 just uses ml, if a cup is used for measuring then it's "the volume of whatever drinking vessel comes to hand". I've no idea what the convention is in South Africa, or indeed whether Frank was using it in a formal sense (if it was a British writer then I would assume not).

South Africa (where I live) is a former Commonwealth country so to all intents and purposes we use Church Of England measurements. But to me a cup is simply 250ml. However, since all herbs were steeped in the same volume and this was mostly about how they compare, a few ml more or less water hardly matters here.

 

[frankvw]

Phytoestrogens where exactly why I got into the herbal beer thing. But unfortunately, during my research I found out that many of the classic herbs used for brewing are also packed with them. I read that mugwort and it's relatives, sweet gale (bog Myrtle) and I think yarrow as well (not sure about this one) are actually containing good amounts of those substances as well. I am not sure how they compare to hops in regards to quantity, but it seems that it is not that easy to escape them when brewing beer.

I'd like to add a few footnotes on the perceived problems with phytoestrogens in hops. Which, in short, are generally grossly over-estimated. Research in this field continues, but a few key points have clearly emerged in recent years.

• Our diet includes many natural sources of phytoestrogen. Foods most well known for containing phytoestrogen include flax seed, soy and soy-derived proteins (e.g. tofu), fruits, nuts, beans, peas, lentils, and a variety of cruciferous vegetables such as broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, kale, Brussels sprouts, watercress and radishes. But these are not the only ones by far. In fact, almost all vegetables, legumes and seeds that we eat (including wheat and rice) contain some phytoestrogen, although the amount varies.
  
  
• The feminisation symptoms observed in male alcoholics, especially gynaecomastia ("man ****s") and hypogonadism (which is the medical term referring to shrinkage of the male genitals) exist not only in beer drinkers but also in alcoholics who exclusively drink distilled spirits. This suggests that alcohol, not beer, is the prime factor in causing these symptoms. This appears to be consistent with impaired liver function which in turn reduces the removal of extrogens from the blood.
  
  
• While hops contain a particularly potent form of phytoestrogen, the amount of this that actually ends up in your beerglass is relatively low. This does of course depend on the beer style: highly hopped American styles such as IPAs and New England IPAs contain more hops, and therefore more hop-derived phytoestrogens, than a moderately hopped Berliner Weizen. Phytoestrogens also tend to bond with proteins, which means that during the brewing process a significant amount of them will end up in the break material that is left behind at the bottom of the kettle.
  
  
• Your average vegetarian will typically ingest far more phytoestrogen than what you can get from moderate beer consumption. While it is beer that has the reputation of making a man less manly, tofu can be as bad or worse! Yet few male vegetarians worry about it, and with good reason: it is simply not a problem.

Yes, phytoetrogens in hops do have some effect, but this manifests itself mostly as a short-term fluctuation in hormone levels in the blood, but not enough to be a cause of concern. The perceived effects take long-term changes of hormone baseline levels; a fluctuation for a few hours has little or no effect. Alcohol, not hormones, appears to be the key factor here. Compared to the dangers of alcohol that we are all familiar with, the effect of phytoestrogen is minimal at best.

Disclaimer: I am not a trained medical professional. See your doctor if concerns about drinking give you a headache.

 

[Miraculix]

I'd like to add a few footnotes on the perceived problems with phytoestrogens in hops. Which, in short, are generally grossly over-estimated. Research in this field continues, but a few key points have clearly emerged in recent years.

• Our diet includes many natural sources of phytoestrogen. Foods most well known for containing phytoestrogen include flax seed, soy and soy-derived proteins (e.g. tofu), fruits, nuts, beans, peas, lentils, and a variety of cruciferous vegetables such as broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, kale, Brussels sprouts, watercress and radishes. But these are not the only ones by far. In fact, almost all vegetables, legumes and seeds that we eat (including wheat and rice) contain some phytoestrogen, although the amount varies.
  
  
• The feminisation symptoms observed in male alcoholics, especially gynaecomastia ("man ****s") and hypogonadism (which is the medical term referring to shrinkage of the male genitals) exist not only in beer drinkers but also in alcoholics who exclusively drink distilled spirits. This suggests that alcohol, not beer, is the prime factor in causing these symptoms. This appears to be consistent with impaired liver function which in turn reduces the removal of extrogens from the blood.
  
  
• While hops contain a particularly potent form of phytoestrogen, the amount of this that actually ends up in your beerglass is relatively low. This does of course depend on the beer style: highly hopped American styles such as IPAs and New England IPAs contain more hops, and therefore more hop-derived phytoestrogens, than a moderately hopped Berliner Weizen. Phytoestrogens also tend to bond with proteins, which means that during the brewing process a significant amount of them will end up in the break material that is left behind at the bottom of the kettle.
  
  
• Your average vegetarian will typically ingest far more phytoestrogen than what you can get from moderate beer consumption. While it is beer that has the reputation of making a man less manly, tofu can be as bad or worse! Yet few male vegetarians worry about it, and with good reason: it is simply not a problem.

Yes, phytoetrogens in hops do have some effect, but this manifests itself mostly as a short-term fluctuation in hormone levels in the blood, but not enough to be a cause of concern. The perceived effects take long-term changes of hormone baseline levels; a fluctuation for a few hours has little or no effect. Alcohol, not hormones, appears to be the key factor here. Compared to the dangers of alcohol that we are all familiar with, the effect of phytoestrogen is minimal at best.

Disclaimer: I am not a trained medical professional. See your doctor if concerns about drinking give you a headache.

I think it is worth mentioning that there are many different versions of phytoestrogens and they each work differently so a comparison is not that simple.

I somehow just remember a British quote back from the medieval times where they where referring to the "fat faced Dutch men", during a time when ale was still without hops in the UK, but with hops in the Netherland region. The Brits said it was because of the hops, that the Dutch where fat, so there are hints regarding the perception of the effect that hops have, way back in history.

 

[frankvw]

I think it is worth mentioning that there are many different versions of phytoestrogens and they each work differently so a comparison is not that simple.

True. Which is why the common perception that "hops cause estrogen effects" is also far too undifferentiated.

I somehow just remember a British quote back from the medieval times where they where referring to the "fat faced Dutch men",

Being an expatriate Dutchman myself, I can tell you that the English and the Dutch didn't get along too well in those days, and that the Dutch diet of the time was also high in fat and starches. Interestingly, at the same time the Dutch had (and, to a certain extent, still have) the same opinion of their Eastern neighbors. (No offense!)

during a time when ale was still without hops in the UK, but with hops in the Netherland region. The Brits said it was because of the hops, that the Dutch where fat, so there are hints regarding the perception of the effect that hops have, way back in history.

Strangely enough, facial lipodystrophy ("fat face"), if not caused by diet and/or as part of obesity, is primarily related to an excess of steroid hormones such as cortisol, costicosterone, cortisone and aldosterone. Phytoestrogen intake elevates none of these significantly; if anything, they tend do lower it.

But that's getting more into the medical side of things (and beyond my qualifications) than it is about brewing. So let me not digress too far. To return to brewing: hops replaced gruit for several reasons.

Gruit herbs, especially certain widely used combinations, were to a large extent hallucinogenic and/or had a significant stimulating effect, and were therefore widely used in pagan rituals. (Think druids cavorting naked in the woods during the Beltane fertility rites, and let your imagination take it from there!) This was the late middle ages when the Catholic church was on a mission to eradicate paganism, and suppressing the herbs required for pagan ritual went a long way towards that goal. Also, gruit tended to make the brew more potent and tended to cause more intoxication; it lowered the inhibitions and generally made for a much rowdier party where things got indiscriminate more often than not. Hops did not act as a stimulant but instead are a mild soporific, which means the party tended to end earlier before things could get out of hand so much. This suited Church leaders who frowned upon the frivolities induced by many gruit blends.

Also, gruit consists mostly of wild herbs that could be found and harvested anywhere, while hop was grown on farms as a crop. This made hops controllable and taxable, which gruit could never really be. The Church was after control, and taxation provides a means to control many things as well as provide revenue. This was yet another nail in gruit's coffin.

The gruit->hop transition also came at a time when the brewing industry was in the process of being regulated to protect the food industry. Since water was lethal to drink at the time due to widespread bacterial contamination (the idea of keeping your drinking water supply separate from your sewage had not gained much foothold yet) so beer was enormously popular. Anything that could be made to ferment somewhat was used for brewing, and grains for baking bread and the like became scarce, leading to excessive food prices.

So the time was right to put everything into one set of legislation. The Reinheitsgebot of the early 1500s killed many crows with one stone: it protected the food industry; it eradicated pagan herbs, it put a stop to excessive celebration, it allowed beer production to be controlled, regulated and taxed, and it put the Church in an increased position of power. And the rest is history.

Also, in a remarkable feat of marketing, all of this was sold to the population as purity legislation intended to ensure the quality of beer, and it has survived as such over the course of the next five centuries!

In short, while phytoestrogens are real and do have a place in physiology, their overall contribution to the perceived effects of having a pint are grossly overestimated. That said, brewing with gruit is fun and opens up a whole range of experimentation (pharmacological or otherwise). At the same time, hop just simply tastes good in beer. So we all win in the end!

 

[Miraculix]

True. Which is why the common perception that "hops cause estrogen effects" is also far too undifferentiated.


Being an expatriate Dutchman myself, I can tell you that the English and the Dutch didn't get along too well in those days, and that the Dutch diet of the time was also high in fat and starches. Interestingly, at the same time the Dutch had (and, to a certain extent, still have) the same opinion of their Eastern neighbors. (No offense!)


Strangely enough, facial lipodystrophy ("fat face"), if not caused by diet and/or as part of obesity, is primarily related to an excess of steroid hormones such as cortisol, costicosterone, cortisone and aldosterone. Phytoestrogen intake elevates none of these significantly; if anything, they tend do lower it.

But that's getting more into the medical side of things (and beyond my qualifications) than it is about brewing. So let me not digress too far. To return to brewing: hops replaced gruit for several reasons.

Gruit herbs, especially certain widely used combinations, were to a large extent hallucinogenic and/or had a significant stimulating effect, and were therefore widely used in pagan rituals. (Think druids cavorting naked in the woods during the Beltane fertility rites, and let your imagination take it from there!) This was the late middle ages when the Catholic church was on a mission to eradicate paganism, and suppressing the herbs required for pagan ritual went a long way towards that goal. Also, gruit tended to make the brew more potent and tended to cause more intoxication; it lowered the inhibitions and generally made for a much rowdier party where things got indiscriminate more often than not. Hops did not act as a stimulant but instead are a mild soporific, which means the party tended to end earlier before things could get out of hand so much. This suited Church leaders who frowned upon the frivolities induced by many gruit blends.

Also, gruit consists mostly of wild herbs that could be found and harvested anywhere, while hop was grown on farms as a crop. This made hops controllable and taxable, which gruit could never really be. The Church was after control, and taxation provides a means to control many things as well as provide revenue. This was yet another nail in gruit's coffin.

The gruit->hop transition also came at a time when the brewing industry was in the process of being regulated to protect the food industry. Since water was lethal to drink at the time due to widespread bacterial contamination (the idea of keeping your drinking water supply separate from your sewage had not gained much foothold yet) so beer was enormously popular. Anything that could be made to ferment somewhat was used for brewing, and grains for baking bread and the like became scarce, leading to excessive food prices.

So the time was right to put everything into one set of legislation. The Reinheitsgebot of the early 1500s killed many crows with one stone: it protected the food industry; it eradicated pagan herbs, it put a stop to excessive celebration, it allowed beer production to be controlled, regulated and taxed, and it put the Church in an increased position of power. And the rest is history.

Also, in a remarkable feat of marketing, all of this was sold to the population as purity legislation intended to ensure the quality of beer, and it has survived as such over the course of the next five centuries!

In short, while phytoestrogens are real and do have a place in physiology, their overall contribution to the perceived effects of having a pint are grossly overestimated. That said, brewing with gruit is fun and opens up a whole range of experimentation (pharmacological or otherwise). At the same time, hop just simply tastes good in beer. So we all win in the end!

Did you read the papers published by Susanne? They are linked to somewhere here in the thread, there is one particular one about history of gruit and also the specific definition. You're covering a bit of it but I think this paper might be interesting for your to read as it let's some of the aspects shine in a bit of a different light.

 

[cmac62]

Not sure. I can't get it here, so I'm looking at Sage for that purpose. Shame... Myrrh combined with Frankincense would make for a good Xmas beer!


That's what I thought. You may be able to get F&M as bulk incense on the web.

 

[cmac62]

Quote fail. LOL

 

[frankvw]

Did you read the papers published by Susanne? They are linked to somewhere here in the thread, there is one particular one about history of gruit and also the specific definition. You're covering a bit of it but I think this paper might be interesting for your to read as it let's some of the aspects shine in a bit of a different light.

I'll see if I can find them. Incidentally, my sister is a historian and archeologist, and she has quite a bit of material on the subject as well.

 

[Miraculix]

I'll see if I can find them. Incidentally, my sister is a historian and archeologist, and she has quite a bit of material on the subject as well.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/the-gruit-beer-thread.629637/page-6#post-8337055
Susan Verberg,

There you go!

 

[frankvw]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/the-gruit-beer-thread.629637/page-6#post-8337055Susan Verberg,
There you go!

I thank you, kind sir!!

 

[frankvw]

After comparing some gruit herbs by taste a few days ago (see my previous post in this thread) I did the same with Wormwood and Quassia, which I intend to use as a bittering agent. I followed the same procedure (pour 250ml. of boiled water onto the herb and steep for 5 minutes, then taste), however I only used 1/4 teaspoon of the herb this time rather than one teaspoon in order to keep the bitterness from going nuclear. I've tried to compare the taste to the bitterness of the previously tested herbs (keeping in mind that taste is always subjective) and then multiplied the below figures by for to compensate for the reduced amount. You will note that my initial scale of 0-5 has been catastrophically exceeded.

Gruit Herb	Bitterness (0-5)	Sweetness (0-5)	Astringency (0-5)	Vegetal (0-5)	Other
Wormwood	28	0	0	0	0
Quassia	32	0	0	0	0

Interestingly, neither Wormwood nor Quassia had a harsh bitterness. While the Quassia is definitely more bitter than the Wormwood, the character of the bitterness is about the same. I perceived no other flavors, just bitterness. If other flavors are present they are entirely overwhelmed by the bitterness.

In the previous test Horehound was the most bitter, but also had a lot of astringency (suggesting that there's quite some tannin at work there) which made the bitterness rather rough and unpleasant. On balance, I would prefer to derive bitterness from Wormwood and/or Quassia rather than from Horehound.

 

[Miraculix]

After comparing some gruit herbs by taste a few days ago (see my previous post in this thread) I did the same with Wormwood and Quassia, which I intend to use as a bittering agent. I followed the same procedure (pour 250ml. of boiled water onto the herb and steep for 5 minutes, then taste), however I only used 1/4 teaspoon of the herb this time rather than one teaspoon in order to keep the bitterness from going nuclear. I've tried to compare the taste to the bitterness of the previously tested herbs (keeping in mind that taste is always subjective) and then multiplied the below figures by for to compensate for the reduced amount. You will note that my initial scale of 0-5 has been catastrophically exceeded.

Gruit Herb	Bitterness (0-5)	Sweetness (0-5)	Astringency (0-5)	Vegetal (0-5)	Other
Wormwood	28	0	0	0	0
Quassia	32	0	0	0	0

Interestingly, neither Wormwood nor Quassia had a harsh bitterness. While the Quassia is definitely more bitter than the Wormwood, the character of the bitterness is about the same. I perceived no other flavors, just bitterness. If other flavors are present they are entirely overwhelmed by the bitterness.

In the previous test Horehound was the most bitter, but also had a lot of astringency (suggesting that there's quite some tannin at work there) which made the bitterness rather rough and unpleasant. On balance, I would prefer to derive bitterness from Wormwood and/or Quassia rather than from Horehound.
[/QUOTEl

Keep in mind that your beer does not need to have bitterness. If you use a normal type of yeast (not talking about the ultra low attenuating strains that are out there), then the beer won´t be too sweet at the end, even without much bitterness. But you certainly can have some bitterness, if desired.

I brewed many herbal beers without any hops and without much bitterness, I never had a sweet one beneath them. I still have a few bottles here, that must be now over 2 years old. They were souring, as there were no hops inside to surpress the lactos. So be mentally prepared to have a sour beer, if you brew without hops. Some guys here managed to keep their herbal beers from souring, I personally never was that lucky. But it does not taste bad, they all had a nice level of sourness, not too much.

And btw. just to be that guy that gives too much about small unrelevant details, these herbs we are talking about are mostly not gruit herbs and the beers we are talking about are mostly not gruit beers. More about this topic in Susans papers. Specifically the "Rise and fall of gruit" covers this topic. I like to call them herbal beers, because that is what they actually are. technically speaking, hops are also kind of herbs... so "normal" beers are also herbal beers.... hmm... well, let´s stay with herbal beers for the beers that have other herbs than hops inside, being it additional to hops or replacement of the hops entirely.

 

[frankvw]

Keep in mind that your beer does not need to have bitterness. If you use a normal type of yeast (not talking about the ultra low attenuating strains that are out there), then the beer won´t be too sweet at the end, even without much bitterness. But you certainly can have some bitterness, if desired.

Personally I do. I like the balance. I always compare it to coffee: without a teaspoon of sugar in it the coffee tastes too bitter, but that same teaspoon of sugar in a glass of water is far too sweet. You need both in the mix. By my taste, anyway.

But you point that bitterness is not compulsory and that out-of-the-box thinking is a good thing is well taken. And because I personally don't like sour beers styles (from Lambic to Gose) I'm adding some sage as well as an antimicrobial agent, plus a pair crossed fingers.

 

[Miraculix]

Personally I do. I like the balance. I always compare it to coffee: without a teaspoon of sugar in it the coffee tastes too bitter, but that same teaspoon of sugar in a glass of water is far too sweet. You need both in the mix. By my taste, anyway.

But you point that bitterness is not compulsory and that out-of-the-box thinking is a good thing is well taken. And because I personally don't like sour beers styles (from Lambic to Gose) I'm adding some sage as well as an antimicrobial agent, plus a pair crossed fingers.

I never brewed with sage, it has a strong taste, so be sure to check out before with a tea that your herbal combination fits.

From all my experiments, by far my favourite herb has been fresh ground ivy. It can be found nearly everywhere and it tastes nice. However, it tastes horrible during the first three weeks after carbonation, you have to wait it out, trust me, the flavour will dramatically change within this time frame. After that, it is really nice.

Also, the beers that included ground ivy where the ones that were almost not souring, so it seems to have an antimicrobial effect.

 

[z-bob]

Ground ivy is one of my enemies. I could get rid of it, but it crawls back under the fence because my neighbor has let it totally take over his back yard. Anyway, I made a tea with it once because I'd read that it was a good brewing herb (and that's how it got to America; Europeans brought it here). It just tasted "green". No bitterness, no mint, nothing. Is there a specific time you're supposed to harvest it? Like maybe when it's blooming, or before it blooms, or...

 

[Miraculix]

Ground ivy is one of my enemies. I could get rid of it, but it crawls back under the fence because my neighbor has let it totally take over his back yard. Anyway, I made a tea with it once because I'd read that it was a good brewing herb (and that's how it got to America; Europeans brought it here). It just tasted "green". No bitterness, no mint, nothing. Is there a specific time you're supposed to harvest it? Like maybe when it's blooming, or before it blooms, or... It

I don't know but I always harvested mid to late summer. And the smell and taste was very distinctive.

You're sure you got the right plant and not some of the herbs that look similar?

The stem of it should be square, if that's the case, you should have the right one.

 

[z-bob]

Thin square stems, round leaves; I think they are slightly scalloped. Small purple flowers that grow in spikes. It runs along the ground rooting at every node and even chokes out the grass. And it laughs at most weed killers. (triclopyr works, especially applied in the fall) Perhaps I tasted it in the spring when it was too lush.

 

[Miraculix]

Thin square stems, round leaves; I think they are slightly scalloped. Small purple flowers that grow in spikes. It runs along the ground rooting at every node and even chokes out the grass. And it laughs at most weed killers. (triclopyr works, especially applied in the fall) Perhaps I tasted it in the spring when it was too lush.

That sure sounds like ground ivy. Give it a try during the summer, I bet it tastes different!

 

[dmtaylor]

Oh jeez, I've got that stuff in the corner of my yard. I never knew what it was until I just Googled it. I always enjoyed the smell when running the lawnmower over it. So you just use the leaves then? Dried? Cool. Only thing preventing me from using it then might be my dogs wizzing on it. But if I fenced off a small area...

 

[cmac62]

That sure sounds like ground ivy. Give it a try during the summer, I bet it tastes different!

I understand it is also called creeping charlie and a bunch of brewing related names alehoof and tunhoof are the two I remember. If I get some I'm going to keep it in a pot. I once made the mistake of planting some peppermint on my front slope and spent the next 10 years trying to wrangle it. LOL

 

[Miraculix]

Oh jeez, I've got that stuff in the corner of my yard. I never knew what it was until I just Googled it. I always enjoyed the smell when running the lawnmower over it. So you just use the leaves then? Dried? Cool. Only thing preventing me from using it then might be my dogs wizzing on it. But if I fenced off a small area...

Don´t dry it. Pick it, leave it on some papertowls for a few hours in the open to allow the insetcs to leave the sinking ship and then rinse it and brew with it! straight into the boil with it! Strain afterwards.

 

[Miraculix]

I understand it is also called creeping charlie and a bunch of brewing related names alehoof and tunhoof are the two I remember. If I get some I'm going to keep it in a pot. I once made the mistake of planting some peppermint on my front slope and spent the next 10 years trying to wrangle it. LOL

Indeed it is! It is a really nice herb.

 

[coopbrews]

I will try the ground ivy too, just made a gruit with wormwood and yarrow and added a little cascade hops all home grown and the result was excrutiatingly bitter. I did not do the tea method but the normal boil, perhaps that is why. Is it possible to Unbitter a batch?

 

[Miraculix]

I will try the ground ivy too, just made a gruit with wormwood and yarrow and added a little cascade hops all home grown and the result was excrutiatingly bitter. I did not do the tea method but the normal boil, perhaps that is why. Is it possible to Unbitter a batch?

You can try waiting it out... Otherwise, no chance.

Wormwood can be hardcore!

 

[z-bob]

Use a bottle or two of the worrmwood beer to bitter your next batch. "The solution to pollution is dilution!"

 

[cmac62]

I will try the ground ivy too, just made a gruit with wormwood and yarrow and added a little cascade hops all home grown and the result was excrutiatingly bitter. I did not do the tea method but the normal boil, perhaps that is why. Is it possible to Unbitter a batch?

I'd likely find an inexpensive malty brew and try mixing some of the wormwood ale. My son and I made a dill pickle gose that was spiced/salted for a 10 gallon batch and ended up with only 7. So it is so salty I can't drink it, but it is much better 50/50 with something else. Good luck.

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

You can try waiting it out... Otherwise, no chance.

Wormwood can be hardcore!

I brewed this 5 years 11 months ago and it is still as bitter as I remember day 1. I think I've finally resigned myself that I should dump the keg. It's an herb beer rather than Gruit as defined here in this thread.

Forever Bitter - 5.5 gallon batch size
75 minute boil

Ingredients:
5.5 lb Pilsner
4 lb 4 oz Red Wheat Malt
1 lb 4oz Smoked Malt
1 lb 4 oz Wheat Malt Dark
4 oz Acid Malt

0.5 oz Strisslespalt - Boil 60 minutes

Herbs - Boil 10 minutes
5 g Juniper
5 g Wormwood
4 g Marjoram
5 g Rosemary
1 g Bay Leaf

Wyeast 1214 Belgian Ale yeast (with starter)

Measured OG = 1.060, Measured FG = 1.010

Not sure how much wormwood @coopbrews used, but if it's anywhere near 5 grams, you can save yourself the nearly 6 years and move on...

The taste is really good at the start, but then quickly falls into an overwhelming bitterness that stays with you for sometime.

So yeah, I agree. Wormwood is HARDCORE!

 

[cmac62]

Luke, you kept a beer in a keg for almost 6 years!! Dang that is commitment. LOL Maybe 1 gram or wormwood is a starting point? how were the other additions flavor and balance minus the extreme bitterness?

 

[Miraculix]

Luke, you kept a beer in a keg for almost 6 years!! Dang that is commitment. LOL Maybe 1 gram or wormwood is a starting point? how were the other additions flavor and balance minus the extreme bitterness?

Maybe you just do the tea and see for yourself. Every harvest and every area yields different potential, last year's might not be half as bitter as this year, so it really is necessary to check every time you open a new pack.

 

[frankvw]

Is it possible to Unbitter a batch?

You can try waiting it out... Otherwise, no chance. Wormwood can be hardcore!

Which brings up an interesting point. Hop bitterness is often reduced over time, mainly by the oxidation of alpha and beta acids. Gruit bitterness, on the other hand (e.g. from Wormwood or Quassia) is not based on alpha or beta acids but on other compounds. This suggests they respond differently (if at all) to oxidation.

Does anyone here have any practical data on the evolution of gruit bitterness over time during maturation?