The Gruit Beer Thread

[premington]

So I bottled this gruit over the weekend and this one did turn sour. It is kind of lemony, with an interesting mix of Garam Masala and other subtle flavors. I almost forgot to add the sugar (had to open about six and recap after adding a bottle drop). I mixed it with some Costo Kolshe to see how that was and it tasted great. I have two son's, one loves sour and he liked it, the other not so much. I'll let this bottle condition for a couple of weeks and give an update.

Wow... Great news! Glad to hear you have something drinkable. As Miraculix said, let it age. I've never done a sour, but from what I've read and talking to others who have, aging is really the key. Sours aren't for everyone... I'm not much into them... but they are a unique style. If you have a good one, enjoy it and share it with others! I'm sure it'll get better with age.

 

[cmac62]

It was pretty tasty already, but I will let it age for a while. I'll crack one sometime soon just to make sure it is carbing.

 

[Miraculix]

Exactly the way to go! Sometimes (just my wild guess) it looks like some lactos might eat all the sugar when carbonation takes place, so carbonation does not happen but the sugar goes away anyway.. Had that with some of my gruits but they were good after aging, just not that much bubbles.

 

[Miraculix]

Just had an idea regarding sourness reduction in non hopped gruits.

If everything goes very well and everything is sterilised etc. This shouldn't be an issue but, as it still seems to be a problem for a lot of people, I was pondering about a way of managing the sourness.

A bit of sourness is Ok for me, if I cannot avoid it I shall at least enjoy it.

Two additional ideas popped up in my mind, both connected to yeast selection.

First idea, use a really really aggressive yeast. A yeast that eats everything and does it very fast. If there are no leftovers, there will be no food for the lactos and if the yeast is fast, the sugar will be gone quickly and the lactos have less time to munch on the sugar parallel to the yeast.

The second idea is a gruit Lager. Lactos love higher temps, so why not choose a yeast that loves lower temps? Would still be beneficial if the yeast would eat everything and quickly, but would be also possible to add a really aggressive strain at the end of the fermentation of the Lager yeast, to clean up the leftovers.

The most aggressive one that I read about seems to be belle Saison.

Does anybody have another idea or suggestion to this topic?

Any other suggestion regarding hardcore aggressive, through rubber chewing yeast strains?

 

[Whatsgoodmiley]

@miraculix I brewed a saison using belle saison recently and it reached 97% attenuation. The only drawback I could think of is that the body would be thin and dry. A possible solution would be to add maltodextrin! My 2 cents

 

[Miraculix]

Thx for your input!

The thing is, in the usual gruit, some lacto bacterias are usually present due to the lack of hops which would stop them, and these little bugs would eat up any residual sweetness anyway and turn it into acid. So I just try to feed it to a yeast before these little guys can start growing on it.

 

[cmac62]

It was pretty tasty already, but I will let it age for a while. I'll crack one sometime soon just to make sure it is carbing.

Yeah so I tried a bottle a couple of days ago, and the sourness really took off. It was moderately carbed but the sourness had a bit of an unpleasant bite and I believe there were some floaties that were not there when it was bottled (infected). The question I have is how did it get in there? All of my herbs were either boiled or tinctured in vodka before going into the beer.

 

[dmtaylor]

It is nearly impossible to truly sterilize wort, herbs, fermenter, etc. well enough to prevent 100% of all wild bugs. There's always a little bacteria present, and given enough time and in absence of the preservative effects of hops, can eventually take off and sour the gruit beer. The only way to really prevent this might be the pasteurize after carbonation by bringing filled bottles to 160 F for 20 minutes or something in that neighborhood. That should kill the bugs. The risk, however, is that bottles could explode, and/or the gruit might have a "cooked" flavor after doing this, which might not taste great. Could be tried though to see what happens. I'm not going to try it but I know it's been done, especially by people trying to lock in sweetness in their ciders, wines, and meads. So then why not gruit. It *should* work.

 

[BowAholic]

Thanks for the great thread... I have read every post and will be following it closely. The idea of Gruit Ale is exciting, but there is not a lot of information out there. I know I will make many different recipes but for now I just bought the NB's Hibiscus Hubub Gruit All-Grain Recipe Kit. I brewed it last week and can't wait to try it. Unlike several of you I do like my IPAs, but I'm looking for something more in line with my Scottish ancestry. Keep brewing and sharing!

 

[Miraculix]

Oh, did not know that gruit kits exist. However, looks like they are using not the traditional gruit herbs on this one, but that doesn't mean that the results must be bad. Just be prepared for an unintentional sour, and if so, the need to age it for a few months. Keep trying one every few weeks till you think it is perfect and please let us know how the final results will be.

 

[BowAholic]

The "herbs" appear to be a nice green tea with a hibiscus/citrus blend...which smelled wonderful in the boil kettle. The yeast was safale s-04. They also have a cranberry Gruit kit that includes about 10oz. of dried cranberries... both kits are cheap at about $21-22.

 

[Miraculix]

Well, from my perspective this looks like rubbish (still could taste nice at the end), a cheap try to sell something as gruit.

Next time just buy yourself some yarrow, ground ivy, mugwort and, if you can, sweet gale plus the most aggressive yeast strain of your choice and forget about kits

You can also go with juniper berries or....... .... So much choice! Maybe a combination? Maybe no yarrow? Maybe this, maybe that? All quite cheap, except for sweet gale.. So next time just create your own

Brew some teas from the herbs before brew day and check the aroma you get from your mix. If it tastes suitable then go for it! That's it!

Extract or not... Does not really matter. I started all grain and will keep it like this. Did brew a neipa once with extract, did turn out too sweet for my liking. But with the aggressive yeast, this might not be a problem.

 

[BowAholic]

that sounds like a good plan. I live on my farm in Arkansas and I have many plants native here plus 15 acres of woods...with lots of Eastern Red Cedar, Juniperus virginiana... I should have no problem getting berries.

 

[Miraculix]

Wow, sounds like a dream! Congratulations to that!

You can also do stuff with the branches... Best get yourself a copy of "ancient and herbal healing beers", so much ideas inside that one!

 

[BowAholic]

I have that book sitting right next to my computer... I also just ordered Gardening for the Homebrewer.

 

[Abyssal]

Yeah so I tried a bottle a couple of days ago, and the sourness really took off. It was moderately carbed but the sourness had a bit of an unpleasant bite and I believe there were some floaties that were not there when it was bottled (infected). The question I have is how did it get in there? All of my herbs were either boiled or tinctured in vodka before going into the beer.

Sorry for the late reply! I just finished reading the this thread, which I love by the way! It's a great idea!

I had something similar happen to me. I went super crazy with my first gruit and used some sketchy home malted wheat and rice as my grains. I was even more crazy and didn't boil it! Then threw in sh*t ton of raw ginger (I'm a ginger nut!) and some wormwood. (I think the reason I didn't boil was because didn't want to kill the psychedelics from the wormwood? And just to see what happened ) I think i let it ferment for about a week and got most of the sugars fermented out, but it was sour. Now at first it was very pleasant, it tasted like a goze lemonade shandy with a hint of the wormwood! But no ginger spiciness! But I didn't pasteurize it and a couple days later it was straight vinegar! My take aways from that were ginger has some serious lacto bacterias, and I need to do something different to get the ginger spiciness to come through!

 

[Abyssal]

Wow, sounds like a dream! Congratulations to that!

You can also do stuff with the branches... Best get yourself a copy of "ancient and herbal healing beers", so much ideas inside that one!

Again late reply but I just finished reading through the thread! I was at first bummed because I wanted some fresh Juniper berries and boughs but didn't think they grew naturally here in the Midwest. But then I saw that juniper is actually a pretty common landscaping tree/bush! And once I knew what to look for I found Juniper bushes laden with berries all over town, in medians, outside industrial complexes, around apartment complexes, and even in my grocery store parking lot! So I'm just keeping my eyes peeled for them to ripen then I'm going to be wandering around town taking all those lovely berries and boughs for free!

 

[cmac62]

Sorry for the late reply! I just finished reading the this thread, which I love by the way! It's a great idea!

I had something similar happen to me. I went super crazy with my first gruit and used some sketchy home malted wheat and rice as my grains. I was even more crazy and didn't boil it! Then threw in sh*t ton of raw ginger (I'm a ginger nut!) and some wormwood. (I think the reason I didn't boil was because didn't want to kill the psychedelics from the wormwood? And just to see what happened ) I think i let it ferment for about a week and got most of the sugars fermented out, but it was sour. Now at first it was very pleasant, it tasted like a goze lemonade shandy with a hint of the wormwood! But no ginger spiciness! But I didn't pasteurize it and a couple days later it was straight vinegar! My take aways from that were ginger has some serious lacto bacterias, and I need to do something different to get the ginger spiciness to come through!

Right now I have a ginger ale on tap, I used about 10 lbs of grain and 1.5 lbs fresh ginger in the boil, and 1/2 lb of ginger in a vodka tincture with the zest of 4 lemons. The 12 lb of ginger in the tincture was wicked spicy with it went into the keg. Now after about a month in the keg everything has mellow, but it is still super tasty. :rockin:

 

[premington]

Again late reply but I just finished reading through the thread! I was at first bummed because I wanted some fresh Juniper berries and boughs but didn't think they grew naturally here in the Midwest. But then I saw that juniper is actually a pretty common landscaping tree/bush! And once I knew what to look for I found Juniper bushes laden with berries all over town, in medians, outside industrial complexes, around apartment complexes, and even in my grocery store parking lot! So I'm just keeping my eyes peeled for them to ripen then I'm going to be wandering around town taking all those lovely berries and boughs for free!

Yeah... This happened to me too. I work with an herbalist who came in after lunch one day and told me to follow her. She knew I was making gruits and collecting herbs. In our work parking lot, off the paved area, was yarrow and sweet gale! OMG! I had no idea! I was buying it online, but right under my nose, the plants were growing. Pretty cool!

It's getting cold here and those plants will have to wait until next year for me to harvest from them. But you're right... If you learn what to look for, some of these plants grow wild and are free for the taking.

Love it!

 

[Miraculix]

Yeah... This happened to me too. I work with an herbalist who came in after lunch one day and told me to follow her. She knew I was making gruits and collecting herbs. In our work parking lot, off the paved area, was yarrow and sweet gale! OMG! I had no idea! I was buying it online, but right under my nose, the plants were growing. Pretty cool!

It's getting cold here and those plants will have to wait until next year for me to harvest from them. But you're right... If you learn what to look for, some of these plants grow wild and are free for the taking.

Love it!

You're sure that it is sweet gale? It needs really special soil conditions, highly acidic grounds like moors and pete.

But I am pretty sure that you found yarrow, I see it growing everywhere here in the UK. If it is a frequented parking lot, I wouldn't use it, lots of stuff coming out of cars that you do jot want in your beer...

 

[premington]

You're sure that it is sweet gale? It needs really special soil conditions, highly acidic grounds like moors and pete.

But I am pretty sure that you found yarrow, I see it growing everywhere here in the UK. If it is a frequented parking lot, I wouldn't use it, lots of stuff coming out of cars that you do jot want in your beer...

Ahhh... You are a smart one, Miraculix! Actually, you're right... The other plant was mugwort, not sweet gale. I just checked with the herbalist, and she corrected me. My mistake.

The other plant was absolutely yarrow. We have a ton if it growing all over the place over here.

 

[Miraculix]

Ahhh... You are a smart one, Miraculix! Actually, you're right... The other plant was mugwort, not sweet gale. I just checked with the herbalist, and she corrected me. My mistake.

The other plant was absolutely yarrow. We have a ton if it growing all over the place over here.

I have also some collected mugwort here, it grows everywhere. I read that it should be collected shortly before the flowers are opening. You can just cut it of above the root and then hang the whole plant somewhere inside to dry it.

 

[Albionwood]

I just posted a recipe and discussion on the Recipes/Ingredients board:

Gruit Gose

This was a fun project and now I want to do a lot more gruits!
Gose is a nice way to experiment, since it's kettle-soured and needs no bittering.

The one-liter filter-coffee press is the ideal tool for making herb teas to experiment with (I got mine for a dollar at a yard sale). The herbs are coarse and easily filtered out with the screen, so the resulting tea was clear. I think this is far superior to kettle additions. (Too bad it doesn't work so well with hops.)

One liter in a 20-liter batch of beer = 5%, so we took 200 ml samples of the base beer and added 10 ml of tea at a time. Taste, make notes, and add another 10 ml, repeating until we agreed it was too much; then dial back until it's too little. Somewhere in between is perfection.

 

[Albionwood]

Also hearkening back to an older thread, the Buckwheat Gruit I made last year, that didn't ferment out well so we hit it with some wild yeast and soured it... is now kind of awesome. Deliciously tart, kind of like Rodenbach, with a subtle herbal character that blends into the overall flavor profile instead of standing out. This is about a year after primary!

 

[Miraculix]

Nice! Yes, the wild stuff might need some time. How much did you make? What was the recipe?

 

[Albionwood]

Recipe and discussion here: Crazy Buckwheat Gruit

A friend just gave me about half a sack of Buckwheat malt, and a like quantity of Quinoa malt, so I guess there will be more such experimentation in my future. Perhaps I will take a shot at a GF sour.

 

[anteater8]

I wanted to share a gruit(ish) beer that I recently made. I've been interested in the style for a long time but never took the plunge, mostly because I couldn't land on the types of quantities of herbs to use in the boil. So I took a small step towards a gruit and decided to "dry hop" a wild ale with herbs.

I ended up blending 3 gallons of some 1 & 2 year old wild golden ales that I brewed together (very small amount of hops), and added 0.9 oz of dried elderflower, 0.45 oz of dried heather and the zest of 1 orange for 2 weeks. Then I bottled it with about 5 oz gin. I couldn't be happier with the result, very light, bright, floral, citrusy and thirst quenching.

I have a feeling I will want to do this with more wild ales in the future. Experimenting with other herbs sound like fun but I'd be tempted to use this exact combo.

 

[Miraculix]

I wanted to share a gruit(ish) beer that I recently made. I've been interested in the style for a long time but never took the plunge, mostly because I couldn't land on the types of quantities of herbs to use in the boil. So I took a small step towards a gruit and decided to "dry hop" a wild ale with herbs.

I ended up blending 3 gallons of some 1 & 2 year old wild golden ales that I brewed together (very small amount of hops), and added 0.9 oz of dried elderflower, 0.45 oz of dried heather and the zest of 1 orange for 2 weeks. Then I bottled it with about 5 oz gin. I couldn't be happier with the result, very light, bright, floral, citrusy and thirst quenching.

I have a feeling I will want to do this with more wild ales in the future. Experimenting with other herbs sound like fun but I'd be tempted to use this exact combo.

Sounds awesome!

Maybe you wanna split the next batch and experiment with some of the standard gruit herbs like yarrow, mugwort and sweet gale in a smaller side batch?

 

[Artemisia]

Hello gruit people! I have a question about what to expect as far as fermentation activity with gruit-type brews. I just started my very first attempt at brewing with a batch of Pascal Baudar's recipe for Mugwort Lemon "Beer" from from The New Wildcrafted Cuisine book. It's not a beer, and it's not even technically a proper gruit I don't think, since there is no grain (recipe is just 1 gal water, .3 oz mugwort, 1.25 lb brown sugar, and 3 lemons). Boiled them all together and strained into a 1 gal glass carboy for primary fermenting. Pitched about 1/5th of a packet of Safale-05 yeast directly into the carboy at 70 degrees (maybe slightly cooler) on Sunday night. I didn't see much action until Monday evening, when a little bit of krausen appeared to be forming in the center, but by Monday night it was gone. For the past day it's been bubbling constantly with teeny tiny bubbles, but no further krausen formation and very little activity in the airlock. Is this typical of non-grain-based brews? It's also been quite cold in our house (62-67 F), which I suspect may be suppressing fermentation as well. I've never brewed anything at all, so I'm not sure what to expect. Sorry for the novel, thanks!

 

[dmtaylor]

Pitched about 1/5th of a packet of Safale-05 yeast directly into the carboy at 70 degrees (maybe slightly cooler) on Sunday night. I didn't see much action until Monday evening, when a little bit of krausen appeared to be forming in the center, but by Monday night it was gone. For the past day it's been bubbling constantly with teeny tiny bubbles, but no further krausen formation and very little activity in the airlock. Is this typical of non-grain-based brews? It's also been quite cold in our house (62-67 F), which I suspect may be suppressing fermentation as well. I've never brewed anything at all, so I'm not sure what to expect. Sorry for the novel, thanks!

Yes, loss of krausen is normal for non-malt beverages. Foam requires protein, and while there is tons of protein in beer, there is not much protein in things like brown sugar, or same thing for cider or mead. They will fizz like crazy during fermentation for several weeks, and the beverage should appear cloudy while the yeast is actively working, but not much foam on top at all. That's normal.

Give it some time, and it should turn out tasty. Good luck.

 

[Artemisia]

Yes, loss of krausen is normal for non-malt beverages. Foam requires protein, and while there is tons of protein in beer, there is not much protein in things like brown sugar, or same thing for cider or mead. They will fizz like crazy during fermentation for several weeks, and the beverage should appear cloudy while the yeast is actively working, but not much foam on top at all. That's normal.

Give it some time, and it should turn out tasty. Good luck.

Awesome, thank you!

 

[Miraculix]

Awesome, thank you!

If you don't get rhino farts. There is a lack of nutrients in your brew for the yeast, so the yeast might switch its metabolism to a version that produces certain sulfur containing molecules, which result in eggy smell. Maybe you will be lucky and this won't happen, but you can prohibit it by using some good yeast nutrient when pitching the yeast.

 

[dmtaylor]

Nutrient is probably a good idea. But optional.

 

[Artemisia]

Hah! Good to know! I'll be interested to see how it turns out - fully prepared for this first go to be a disaster, but at this point any outcome will be a good learning experience at least

 

[Opus123]

I'm pretty new to homebrewing, and I wanted to try a simple gruit. I modified a recipe I found to my liking and I'm getting ready to start brewing. I'm looking for a dark ale with a bit of zest, and to be honest, a pleasant buzz. I want to be sure I've got a viable recipe here before I start. This is for a 1 gallon batch. I would appreciate any input:

28 g (1 oz) heather tips
14 g (.5 oz) yarrow
7 g (.25 oz) mugwort
7 g (.25 oz) Hallertau hops
363 g (.8 lbs) honey
272 g (.6 lbs) dark malt extract (Briess Trad. Dark DME)
113g (.25 lb) crushed crystal malt 120L
1/4 tsp Irish moss
½ tsp (.06 oz) ale yeast (Mangrove Jack M15 Empire Ale)

Thanks, and I look forward to any advice!

 

[dmtaylor]

I'm pretty new to homebrewing, and I wanted to try a simple gruit. I modified a recipe I found to my liking and I'm getting ready to start brewing. I'm looking for a dark ale with a bit of zest, and to be honest, a pleasant buzz. I want to be sure I've got a viable recipe here before I start. This is for a 1 gallon batch. I would appreciate any input:

28 g (1 oz) heather tips
14 g (.5 oz) yarrow
7 g (.25 oz) mugwort
7 g (.25 oz) Hallertau hops
363 g (.8 lbs) honey
272 g (.6 lbs) dark malt extract (Briess Trad. Dark DME)
113g (.25 lb) crushed crystal malt 120L
1/4 tsp Irish moss
½ tsp (.06 oz) ale yeast (Mangrove Jack M15 Empire Ale)

Thanks, and I look forward to any advice!

Too much yarrow and mugwort. Knock those down to about 1-2 g each and then you'll have a great gruit.

Enjoy!

 

[Miraculix]

Too much yarrow and mugwort. Knock those down to about 1-2 g each and then you'll have a great gruit.

Enjoy!

Depends on what he is after. I agree on the yarrow, but the mugwort really depends on the mugwort itself (quality, taste) and if he is going to brew with hops.

I would remove the hops and brew with 12g Heather, 7g mugwort and 3 to 4 g yarrow.

You can make a tea upfront and check the herbs. Just scale down to 1l, boil a tea and check for yourself! The herb quality and intensity can vary a great way, better be safe and check for yourself.

Edit: especially if you are looking for a special buzz of the brew, leave the hops out.

 

[Albionwood]

Depends on what he is after. I agree on the yarrow, but the mugwort really depends on the mugwort itself (quality, taste) and if he is going to brew with hops.

I would remove the hops and brew with 12g Heather, 7g mugwort and 3 to 4 g yarrow.

You can make a tea upfront and check the herbs. Just scale down to 1l, boil a tea and check for yourself! The herb quality and intensity can vary a great way, better be safe and check for yourself.

Edit: especially if you are looking for a special buzz of the brew, leave the hops out.

I'd leave the hops in, using them for bittering only, assuming this will be a full-boil brew. It's easy to calculate the bittering effect of hops in the boil, much trickier to guess how bitter the herbs will be. Agree with the recommendation to make a tea (tisane) with the herbs - actually, make three separate teas - and then experiment to find the perfect blend with your beer after fermentation. I wouldn't boil them (extracts bitterness) - just boil water and make tea.
Or you could try eliminating the crystal malt and the hops. The two are kind of related, as the hop bitterness balances the crystal sweetness and both are predictable. With a drier, less-malty beer, the herbal character will be better displayed and you don't need much, if any, bittering.

 

[Opus123]

Thanks for the advice. I ended up leaving the heather alone, dropped the yarrow to 10g and dropped the mugwort to 2g. I left the hops in. One of the recipes I was modeling after called for 22g of yarrow per gallon, which I knew was way too much. All the herbs and the hops were in a boil for 90 minutes. It's very dark and smells wonderful. I taste tested it and it pretty much tasted like bitter honey, but the herb flavor was definitely present. SG came out to 1.065, which is higher than I thought it would be, so I think it'll be a little strong.

 

[Miraculix]

I'd leave the hops in, using them for bittering only, assuming this will be a full-boil brew. It's easy to calculate the bittering effect of hops in the boil, much trickier to guess how bitter the herbs will be. Agree with the recommendation to make a tea (tisane) with the herbs - actually, make three separate teas - and then experiment to find the perfect blend with your beer after fermentation. I wouldn't boil them (extracts bitterness) - just boil water and make tea.
Or you could try eliminating the crystal malt and the hops. The two are kind of related, as the hop bitterness balances the crystal sweetness and both are predictable. With a drier, less-malty beer, the herbal character will be better displayed and you don't need much, if any, bittering.

Leaving the hops out s not related to bitterness but to the buzz of the beer. Hops do have a certain narcotic and relaxing buzz, this is why drunk on wine and drunk on beer differs so much.

The gruit herbs also have a certain buzz which is more active and less sleepy. By leaving the hops in, this effect won't come through I am afraid.

The tea would also have given an idea about the bitterness.