The Gruit Beer Thread

[Miraculix]

For a gallon I might use 1 tablespoon each of mugwort, bog myrtle and yarrow and perhaps a tablespoon of heather tips. I make a tea (boil for about 5 minutes and then allow the tea to cool by itself) with the herbs and dissolve about 1.5 lbs *of raw local wildflower honey or orange blossom honey with the cooled and strained tea. I might add to boiling tea 3 very, very ripe sliced bananas (skins and all) to increase the mouthfeel. I like the flavors that Saison Belle yeast highlight and produce with this but any wine yeast (71B or D47 for example) is good. You want to use Fermaid O or K, honey having no nutrients for the yeast, or Whitelabs wine (or beer) nutrient. I generally ferment this in a water bath heated with an aquarium heater so that the water temp is about 78F. Honey ain't grain and the FG will drop below 1.000 so you want to use a rich flavored honey to balance the dryness. If you prefer though you can stabilize this with K-meta and K-sorbate once the yeast become dormant (or you have racked the mead off the yeast after repeated cold chilling) and then backsweeten with added honey or sugar (sweetening also increases the mouthfeel - makes the mead more viscous so it tends to coat your mouth as it slips down...).
*If 1 lb of honey dissolved in water to make a gallon has a gravity of about 1.035 then this has a gravity of about 1.050 or a potential ABV of about 6.5% - you use more honey the ABV rises but the time needed to age increases too - at 6.5% ABV you can be enjoying this 6-8 weeks after pitching the yeast).

Thanks mate sounds awesome!

Never heard of the banana thing. Doesn't it taste too much like banana afterwards?

 

[bernardsmith]

Thanks mate sounds awesome!

Never heard of the banana thing. Doesn't it taste too much like banana afterwards?

Banana wine (using about 5 lbs or more of bananas per gallon ) does not taste of bananas . Tastes more like a Sauterne, and in my opinion makes a really delicious wine. Seriously. But takes a long time to clear if memory serves me aright. Three bananas boiled for 5 minutes (not mashed) do not add any perceptible flavors (my mouth is not very educated, so I may be wayyyy off) but with the herbs and the honey and the yeast they add to the complexity of the flavor and they add something to the viscosity of the mead.

 

[z-bob]

I'm trying to eradicate ground ivy from my backyard (again), but last year I boiled some to make a strong tea just to see what it tasted like -- knowing that it was a gruit herb. It just tasted "green". No spice, no mint, nothing.

I've also wondered about using rue (Ruta graveolens) in a gruit.

 

[premington]

I'm trying to eradicate ground ivy from my backyard (again), but last year I boiled some to make a strong tea just to see what it tasted like -- knowing that it was a gruit herb. It just tasted "green". No spice, no mint, nothing.

I've also wondered about using rue (Ruta graveolens) in a gruit.

I've heard of rue being used. I understand both rue and wormwood are the bitterest herbs you can obtain. I think rue has more bitterness and astringency than wormwood. I've never tried it though.

Wormwood was shockingly bitter! I used it in the gruit I'm aging now, and it seems to have worked well (so far). But I used a real small amount: 2 grams in 6 gallons. I have to see how the flavor matures as it ages. I'm not sure I'd use more in future batches.

I'm curious how much rue would be used in a 5/6 gallon batch. Also, how the flavor compares to wormwood.

 

[Miraculix]

I'm trying to eradicate ground ivy from my backyard (again), but last year I boiled some to make a strong tea just to see what it tasted like -- knowing that it was a gruit herb. It just tasted "green". No spice, no mint, nothing.

I've also wondered about using rue (Ruta graveolens) in a gruit.

Ground ivy has a very strong flavour on its own. The plant smells a tiny bit like mint but the smell is also dominated by the distinctive ground ivy aroma.

My guess is that you might not have real ground ivy in your garden but one of the two herbs it can easily be mistaken for. Those two are also edible, so no worries about that, but they only taste like salad with no distinctive aroma on it's own.

You can order dried ground ivy quiet cheaply online, maybe you want to make a comparison with yours. Or google "ground ivy look alike", this might also clear things up.

Speaking of, this is what ground ivy does to beer, it clears it up. The trub settles way better when ground ivy is involved.

 

[z-bob]

I may have both creeping charlie (that's what we call ground ivy here) and henbit. Perhaps my sample last year was just henbit.

There's some creeping charlie in my horseradish patch and in a flowerbed that I haven't sprayed yet; I should pick some and taste it...

 

[Miraculix]

Naaaa don't spray it! It is incredibly healthy and looks quite nice! The flowers are gorgeous and you can brew with it or spice up your salad. What else could you possibly want from a garden flower? Just incorporate it somehow into your flower bed in a nice way.

 

[Miraculix]

Banana wine (using about 5 lbs or more of bananas per gallon ) does not taste of bananas . Tastes more like a Sauterne, and in my opinion makes a really delicious wine. Seriously. But takes a long time to clear if memory serves me aright. Three bananas boiled for 5 minutes (not mashed) do not add any perceptible flavors (my mouth is not very educated, so I may be wayyyy off) but with the herbs and the honey and the yeast they add to the complexity of the flavor and they add something to the viscosity of the mead.

That sounds very interesting! I could imagine using that technique for beer brewing. I do not care about clarity, I actually take care to drink all the yeast from the bottle, so my beer is always hazy in the Glas. But it could work well for a neipa, a banana neipa, sounds interesting!

 

[Albionwood]

Good thread. I made a Buckwheat Gruit that prompted a nice discussion here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=593394
That beer came out too sweet - apparently the buckwheat malt was not very fermentable, or maybe I needed to pamper the yeast more. Eventually I pitched an indigenous local wild-yeast culture (developed by a friend), dominantly Brettanomyces. That made it much more drinkable and only a little tart, also adding some character.

Just from this one effort, I agree with the general sentiment that gruits should be approached on their own as a distinct style of drink, rather than as a beer. Very much in the way sours are now approached. In fact I suspect the herbal character of gruits work better in tart/sour brews rather than modern sweet beers.

 

[Miraculix]

Sounds good, although I would exclude the hops and include sweet gale instead. It does the same job as hops and keeps the beer from getting sour.

I disagree with the approaching gruit not as beer part though.

It does not have to be a beer, but it certainly can be one. Gruit in general just means something like herbs and does not indicate the fermentables. If the biggest amount comes from grains, I would considder it a beer. If the biggest amount is honey, then it would be more of a mead. There are also possibilities to use it in wine and cider and the biggest fun starts when people start to combine all of those

I also do not agree that they fit better to sour beer styles. There are just way to many gruit herbs out there and each of them has its very own characteristics. Some of them definitely work best in sours, but some of them won't. Meadowsweet for example should work very well in a sweet and malty beer or sweet mead. Just to give you one example, but there are so many...

... What I find very interesting is the idea of using wild fermentation, which will certainly produce a bit of tartness. All my single herb gruits turned sour over time but I still loved them.

But a lot of my friends did not like the sour taste. But those who were open to it, really liked it. I think it boils down as always to the fact that it's a matter of taste, gruit just brings in a whole new range of possibilities.

 

[premington]

Yeah... The whole beer vs. not-beer thing is an interesting debate. For the gruit I did, if I exclude the herbal additions, it has the same ingredients as beer. The brewing process is identical as well. The only difference is an ingredient change--hops replaced with herbs.

So, in my mind, I see my gruit as a style of beer, but I do understand how some might categorize it as something different. It is what it is... regardless of what you call it.

Miraculix: I like your suggestion to consider using sweet gale over hops. The whole reason why I'm goofing around with herbs is to explore an alternative to traditional hops. And I'm really amazed. Tasting the gruit this weekend, it has prominent spice notes. I taste it and think, wow... these are herbs? It's such a fantastic switch from hops. Equally as delicious, in my opinion. In fact, one could argue it's more delicious than hops, as the taste is so unique. But it really depends how they're used. If you get the blend or concentrations wrong, bad things happen.

You're right... Herbs provide a seemly endless list of fermentable options, depending how you blend and use them together. I find they require a lot of exploration and experience to know how to use them properly. Hops are more straight forward.

And it all depends what you're after. My next brew, I'll be doing a Scotch ale. For that, I want hops. I'll go back to herbs... It all depends what style of brew I'm after. Eventually, I'll probably take the Scotch ale recipe I developed and brew it with herbs instead of hops. In fact, I'm toying with adding juniper berries for this next Scotch ale batch. But I'm not sure... I'll probably keep this recipe traditional.

 

[Miraculix]

I agree. It all depends.
I started with the gruit idea without having any other brewing experiences on the beer side, I only did wines and ciders before, so my approach was to get a solid beer recipe going and then to replace it with herbs, so that I know afterwards which flavor changes were attributed to the herbs and which not. I think your scottish ale seems to go the same direction.

At the end I will definetely run wild combinations like honey, apple juice malt and herbs, but it is a process to get there and a lot of knowledge can be aquired on the way (at least i hope so ).

Sweet gale is not as potent as hops regarding its preserving abilitys, but it certainly has some. I am still looking if the preservation get's better when combined with other herbs that should, theoretically, also preserve the gruit from getting sour. Maybe they all work slightly from a different angle and combined they work better than each of them would when used on it's own. We will see with our current batches I guess, mine will be bottled today!

 

[cmac62]

Sorry for the delay. I have to review my notes, but I know the difference between fresh and dries can be huge. I may have to put one of the last bottles into the fridge tonight just to see what happens after a couple of months bottle conditioned. I'll report on this later

 

[cmac62]

And it all depends what you're after. My next brew, I'll be doing a Scotch ale. For that, I want hops. I'll go back to herbs... It all depends what style of brew I'm after. Eventually, I'll probably take the Scotch ale recipe I developed and brew it with herbs instead of hops. In fact, I'm toying with adding juniper berries for this next Scotch ale batch. But I'm not sure... I'll probably keep this recipe traditional. [/QUOTE]

Interesting that you're going with hops in a Scotch Ale because they have always used very little hops because they don't grow easily in Scotland and have augmented hops with heather and other herbal additions. Scotch Ale is one of my favorites and I think juniper would be an interesting addition with the strong malt backbone.

 

[premington]

Interesting that you're going with hops in a Scotch Ale because they have always used very little hops because they don't grow easily in Scotland and have augmented hops with heather and other herbal additions. Scotch Ale is one of my favorites and I think juniper would be an interesting addition with the strong malt backbone.

Yes... Historically, Scotch ales were brewed with alternatives to hops, which is documented quite prolifically by a variety of authors and historical texts. I don't always brew to match history, but rather to taste.

Modern Scotch ale recipes often include hops, and I *do* like hops for their aroma and flavor. I'm not a big fan of their bitterness, hence my interest in exploring herbs. I really dislike IPAs and most "hoppy" beers. So my additions are chosen for bitter balance and definite hop aroma and flavor. Against the forward-learning maltiness of a Scotch ale, bitterness works well, but in moderation (for me).

But I haven't ruled out juniper berries. The gruit I did is kind of a Scotch ale grain bill with herbs. I want to do a wee heavy, so the grain bill I've spec'ed out now is richer. I'd like hops in there, but maybe I'll mix it up. Perhaps use sweet gale and juniper berries together with Willamette at knockout and see what I get. For the yeast, I might go with one that provides more of a woody flavor with citrus highlights. Like... maybe East Coast Yeast ECY07.

Oh... the creativity of all grain is fantastic! My only gripe is it's sometimes hard to narrow down my choices. But it's fun pulling it all together and seeing what I get!

 

[Albionwood]

My point was that gruit ales should be appreciated for what they are, not compared to hopped beers. When most of us taste a beer, we have a certain expectation, based on all the beers we normally drink. Gruits don't taste like that, so they need to be approached differently. The same is true for sours. I don't mean to imply that all gruits should be sour!

I'd also like to point out that "gruit" and "hops" are not mutually exclusive. Medieval gruits sometimes included hops. If you don't want your gruit to become tart, add enough hops at the start of boil to get around 15 IBU - just enough to suppress Lactobacillus, but won't give you much if any hop flavor.

I might have used Sweet Gale if I could have sourced it. Hard to find out here in California!

 

[Miraculix]

My point was that gruit ales should be appreciated for what they are, not compared to hopped beers. When most of us taste a beer, we have a certain expectation, based on all the beers we normally drink. Gruits don't taste like that, so they need to be approached differently. The same is true for sours. I don't mean to imply that all gruits should be sour!

I'd also like to point out that "gruit" and "hops" are not mutually exclusive. Medieval gruits sometimes included hops. If you don't want your gruit to become tart, add enough hops at the start of boil to get around 15 IBU - just enough to suppress Lactobacillus, but won't give you much if any hop flavor.

I might have used Sweet Gale if I could have sourced it. Hard to find out here in California!

Yes, that's a very good point! The expectations often prohibit that we enjoy gruit simply because we were expecting something else.

You can order sweet gale online. Bogmyrtle.com is a shop from Scotland only about sweet gale.

 

[premington]

Yes, that's a very good point! The expectations often prohibit that we enjoy gruit simply because we were expecting something else.

You can order sweet gale online. Bogmyrtle.com is a shop from Scotland only about sweet gale.

Also, Cathy at Wild Weeds has sweet gale and LOTS of other herbs. She's located in California. Probably not near you, per say, but she gets her herbs to me in two days, and I'm in New York. So if you're looking for a source in your state, she's a great one.

Your point of adding hops at the start of the boil for bitterness is a good one. Hops are an easy inclusion. All the flavors are self contained, and what you want from the hop can be used differently depending how you use it. If you want bitterness, add it at the beginning of the boil. If you want aroma and flavor, at it towards the end or dry hop. Blending with herbs will definitely give a different flavor. It's all up to the brewer.

 

[Miraculix]

Yes, but you probably will also get all the nastiness that comes with hops... Phyto oestrogens, sedating effect, suppression of sexual drive...

.... I would be reaaaaaally glad if I would find a substitute which keeps beer from getting sour the way hops do. Not there yet, but let's see what the future will bring

Edit: I think I will try out oak leaves or bark as well... Maybe that works.

 

[premington]

Yes, but you probably will also get all the nastiness that comes with hops... Phyto oestrogens, sedating effect, suppression of sexual drive...

.... I would be reaaaaaally glad if I would find a substitute which keeps beer from getting sour the way hops do. Not there yet, but let's see what the future will bring

Edit: I think I will try out oak leaves or bark as well... Maybe that works.

That's true... Maybe I should wait until this gruit is bottled and then make a decision on what to do with the Scotch ale additions. Herbs with a Scotch ale aren't out of scope at all. I guess I'm a bit torn. I do like the aroma and flavor hops add to a Scotch ale, but your correct in that it imparts a different psychoactive patina to the brew.

With a wee heavy, I don't want to end up adding additions that will take the 8%+ ABV and make it feel like 12%, not that that's necessarily a problem. I just know some herbs can intensify the alcohol effect. I'm not looking for a sessionable ale, but don't want one that feels like wine.

Any suggestions on herbal additions for a Scotch ale?

 

[Miraculix]

I can certainly tell that you don't want any yarrow in it as this would increase the impact the alcohol has significantly

Never had a scotch ale, so I have no idea. I saw a scotch ale recently in an online shop, I think it was called fraoch ale or something like that. If I remember it correctly, they used Heather, as albionwood mentioned, and maybe sweet gale. That would be my approach as well.

 

[premington]

I can certainly tell that you don't want any yarrow in it as this would increase the impact the alcohol has significantly

Never had a scotch ale, so I have no idea. I saw a scotch ale recently in an online shop, I think it was called fraoch ale or something like that. If I remember it correctly, they used Heather, as albionwood mentioned, and maybe sweet gale. That would be my approach as well.

Hmmm... You're giving me ideas now!

Hopefully others will chime in. All suggestions welcome!

I've had a Scotch ale with coriander, but didn't care for it that much. It was very bitter, although that might not have come from the coriander. I have heather tips and sweet gale, so I'm good to go there. I really love the juniper berries in the gruit I made, so that's on the list as well. I'd like additions that add spicy aromatics to the sweet malt. I'll get a yeast that has a medium attenuation, so there's some residual sugar. Then I need to identify the bittering agent.

Do you think there's enough bitter in sweet gale to work as an accent to the malt in a Scotch ale? Or do you think I should use something like mugwort? Wormwood is a bit scary... The bitterness is way powerful and a different quality. I'd like to find a bitter that's a bit softer and rounder and not so astringent.

Scotch ales and stouts are some of my favorite styles of beer. You should try a Scotch ale. I really love Belhaven, which is a Scottish brew. If you have any in your area, give it a try. Their Scottish oat stout is excellent! It's not a Scotch ale, but it's big and beautiful. They make a nice wee heavy and different types of Scotch ale brews.

But nothing beats homebrew! So I want to make my own!

 

[Miraculix]

I will try to check the ones you mentioned, I certainly do love Stouts. A gruit Stout is on my to do list.

http://www.williamsbrosbrew.com/beer/fraoch

They even include the ingredients, they use hops though.

If I remember correctly, mugwort and wormwood are closely related, so it would not surprise me much if the type of bitterness would be the same, but not as concentrated in mugwort as it is in wormwood.

Bog myrtle itself has low to zero bittering qualities, at least according to my experience.

Maybe a combination of ground ivy, mugwort and juniper berries would do the job? Could think about using them in combination with Heather, should fit! But don't overdo the ground ivy as it can get too much..

... But be prepared, i have read that ground ivy in combination with mugwort shall generate a certain special effect, haven't tested it yet but I have brewed it and will bottle it today

 

[premington]

I will try to check the ones you mentioned, I certainly do love Stouts. A gruit Stout is on my to do list.

http://www.williamsbrosbrew.com/beer/fraoch

They even include the ingredients, they use hops though.

If I remember correctly, mugwort and wormwood are closely related, so it would not surprise me much if the type of bitterness would be the same, but not as concentrated in mugwort as it is in wormwood.

Bog myrtle itself has low to zero bittering qualities, at least according to my experience.

Maybe a combination of ground ivy, mugwort and juniper berries would do the job? Could think about using them in combination with Heather, should fit! But don't overdo the ground ivy as it can get too much..

... But be prepared, i have read that ground ivy in combination with mugwort shall generate a certain special effect, haven't tested it yet but I have brewed it and will bottle it today

Well, that "special effect" can be a feature, depending how intense the effect is. Let us know how it feels/tastes after it bottle conditions and carbs up a bit.

The Belhaven stout uses Challenger hops, and I do like their use of bittering. I've toyed with perhaps adding 1 oz. of Challenger at 45 minutes (6 gallons into fermenter) and then using herbs as herbal-spice adjuncts.

I usually knock around a bunch of ideas before settling on a final concept. I know what I want... the trick is finding how to get there.

I've never used ground ivy. I don't see it on the Wild Weeds website. Does it go by another name, perhaps? WW also doesn't have anything listed under "I" for ivy. I'll have to hunt for it. I'd like to get some and play with it before brewing with it.

Thanks for the link to Fraoch. My next trip to our local beer superstore, I'll see if they have it. Love trying new brews!

 

[Miraculix]

I think it is called creeping charly in the states!

 

[premington]

I think it is called creeping charly in the states!

From Wikipedia:

"Glechoma hederacea (syn. Nepeta glechoma Benth., Nepeta hederacea (L.) Trevir.) is an aromatic, perennial, evergreen creeper of the mint family Lamiaceae. It is commonly known as ground-ivy, gill-over-the-ground,[1] creeping charlie, alehoof, tunhoof, catsfoot, field balm, and run-away-robin.[1] It is also sometimes known as creeping jenny, but that name more commonly refers to Lysimachia nummularia. It has numerous medicinal uses, and is used as a salad green in many countries. European settlers carried it around the world, and it has become a well-established introduced and naturalized plant in a wide variety of localities."

 

[dmtaylor]

Do you think there's enough bitter in sweet gale to work as an accent to the malt in a Scotch ale? Or do you think I should use something like mugwort? Wormwood is a bit scary... The bitterness is way powerful and a different quality. I'd like to find a bitter that's a bit softer and rounder and not so astringent.

Sweet gale and mugwort are really not bitter. Steer clear of wormwood. Yarrow might add a little bitterness, as well as some tartness, which could help balance the malt in a Scotch ale, and I think would blend nicely with the malt. Just go easy on it. As little as 1/4 oz in 3 to 5 gallons might be a good starting point.

 

[Miraculix]

Update from my three gruits:

Bottled today and all turned very sour. That kind of sour that it will be borderline, although I like sours.

Well, experiments do not give you the best results possible every time. Luckily those batches were very very small (4 bottles each, 3 batches) which might also be the reason why they turned sour as bigger batches are more stabil in general.

It is quite funny as I did not dryhop with any herb and I also used quite a high gravity so the alcohol should have helped.... strange those gruit herbs!

Let's see how they taste when carbonated!

Good news on my saison tests. I tried to mimmick a slightly hopped saison without the propper yeast, using ale yeast. I added a bit of ginger and coriander at a low og (around 1.04). I also created a small batch without the ginger and coriander, both batches taste very nice, the one without even a bit better. I might have a new favourite beer direction. Low alc, low hop munich malt based. Let's see how the next batch goes in one or two months

Mugwort can be quite bitter, my girlfriend drinks mugwort tea and I tried it two days ago, that stuff was definetely bitter! Maybe the time of harvest plays a role, and obviously also the amount used.

 

[Miraculix]

And another short update.

Mugwort ale, my last bottle, beautiful!!!!

Some residual sweetness left, some sourness, some spice and some lemon. Very very good. I like that one.

 

[cmac62]

I tried a bottle of the Rosemary/Sage/Lavender gruit last night. It is still super Rosemary, but in the nose you get all of the sage and lavender as well.

I was thinking that sage may be a good bittering agent for your scotch ale.

 

[cmac62]

Has anyone used a tincture with vodka instead of tea to get the flavor out of the herbs? I have used this for cocoa nibs, orange/lemon zest, coffee, and other things in the past. I also like it because I can let it sit for weeks and just strain and pour into the keg/bottling bucket (no prep/cooling required).

 

[dmtaylor]

Has anyone used a tincture with vodka instead of tea to get the flavor out of the herbs? I have used this for cocoa nibs, orange/lemon zest, coffee, and other things in the past. I also like it because I can let it sit for weeks and just strain and pour into the keg/bottling bucket (no prep/cooling required).

Yes. It works well.

 

[premington]

I tried a bottle of the Rosemary/Sage/Lavender gruit last night. It is still super Rosemary, but in the nose you get all of the sage and lavender as well.

I was thinking that sage may be a good bittering agent for your scotch ale.

How do you like the lavender? Does it have more of an aroma or flavor or both? How would you describe the taste?

An herbalist at work brought me in a big Tupperware container of culinary lavender. It smells intoxicating! She said I should use this, not the other lavenders, which aren't used for internal consumption. I didn't know that... I guess there's a number of lavender plants.

So reading this post, I'm curious on your impressions and taste experience with it. I have none. I haven't used it yet and know nothing about it. It smells amazing!

BTW: Thanks for the suggestion on using sage for bittering. I'll look into it.

 

[Miraculix]

Sage is also antiseptic, maybe this helps regarding the sourness!

 

[premington]

For those who may have missed this from about a year ago, HBT published a nice article on gruit. Anyone reading this thread who is interested in gruit or trying a gruit for the first time, give this a read:

Rise of the Gruit by Justin Amaral

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks for the link!

A member im the rice wine thread said that the fermentation temperature might be a major factor when it comes to the question if it will turn sour or not.

My current batches have been fermenting at quite high temperatures, so next time I will try to keep the temp low. Maybe this will help.

Please check your gruit regularly for sourness!

 

[premington]

Thanks for the link!

A member im the rice wine thread said that the fermentation temperature might be a major factor when it comes to the question if it will turn sour or not.

My current batches have been fermenting at quite high temperatures, so next time I will try to keep the temp low. Maybe this will help.

Please check your gruit regularly for sourness!

Interesting point... I was wondering about your souring issue (not sure if it's a "problem" if it turns out tasty!). So far, my gruit is showing no signs of infection. Very clean flavor. In a week or so, I'll either rack it to a secondary or bottle it.

As I think we spoke early on, I boiled everything, including the herbs. My stainless fermenter was well cleaned and sanitized with StarSan. Everything that touched the wort/beer after it was put in the fermenter was boiled/sanitized. I'm assuming you did the same thing. If so, why the infections?

I found fermentation was tricky to keep cool. I used Ringwood ale yeast, which, after the first night, spiked up to 75.4 F (range was 64 F to 74 F). I quickly put it in a swamp cooler with ice packs and got it down in the 60s F within a few hours. I left it in the cooler for a few days, constantly swapping out ice packs. I was able to keep it about 66 F to 68 F for a few days. Once fermentation slowed, the temp settled in the mid 68 F range where it is right now.

I would assume a higher fermentation range might promote bacterial growth, but it would also potentially throw off other nasties from the yeast, depending how high the fermentation temp was.

Do you have any thoughts as to what's causing your infections?

I'll draw off a sample tonight and check the flavor. I checked last Saturday (four days ago) and it was delightful! (Hence why I'm toying with just bottling it in a few weeks).

 

[Miraculix]

Well yeah I have a suspicion

I do not desinfect stuff... I only wash it with some soap and that's basically it. Never had a single problem when brewing with hops and the gruits which were boiled completely also did not turn sour so quickly (over time they did though). Could be connected or could be not. We had kind of a heatwave here in the uk when I was fermenting those new gruits (around 30 degress Celsius, which is quite unusual for the uk) which now turned out sour, so I can attribute it to this. Next trial will stand in a waterbucket wearing a soaked old shirt of mine. That should keep it down. I will also boil it completely and then we will see.

 

[Whatsgoodmiley]

I've been following this thread on and off since day 1, and I want to say I may be inspired to finally brew a gruit (I had always followed the assumption people didn't brew gruits* because hops were just better). I may find that I have been corrected.

I do not desinfect stuff... I only wash it with some soap and that's basically it.

How is the head retention on your brews? I've heard/read that soap leaves a residue that kills head.

How do you like the lavender? Does it have more of an aroma or flavor or both? How would you describe the taste?

I used a tsp or two in a 5 gallon batch of beer a while back and it came out tasting perfumey. However, the lavender blonde I tried in Colorado Springs was good enough to inspire my failed batch. From I can recall, it smelled fragrantly floral and the taste was very similar. It was the perfect amount of lavender. Just noticeable.

 

[premington]

Well yeah I have a suspicion

I do not desinfect stuff... I only wash it with some soap and that's basically it. Never had a single problem when brewing with hops and the gruits which were boiled completely also did not turn sour so quickly (over time they did though). Could be connected or could be not. We had kind of a heatwave here in the uk when I was fermenting those new gruits (around 30 degress Celsius, which is quite unusual for the uk) which now turned out sour, so I can attribute it to this. Next trial will stand in a waterbucket wearing a soaked old shirt of mine. That should keep it down. I will also boil it completely and then we will see.

Ahhhhh… I think you identified your problem, my friend! You'd benefit from a regimen of PBW and StarSan. At the very least, use StarSan.

StarSan contains a surfactant and phosphoric acid. The surfactant opens up bacterial cells. The phosphoric acid then gets inside the cell and kills it. Fantastic stuff! Soap and hot water will do a basic cleanse, but will not sanitize. PBW and StarSan are fantastic agents that make bacterial infection a thing of the past.

Sounds like you have a good start. But you might want to kick it up a notch and get some StarSan. No point in risking messing up batches from not using a sanitizer.

Hops are great for helping keep microbial growth from getting out of control. Gruits are a different story, which is why, long ago, shipping beer by boat to distant locations was a problem. Once hops were introduced, exporting beer became a thriving business because it would make it to its location uninfected.

If you're doing gruits, sanitation is critical. Even with PBW and StarSan, I get paranoid. I spend about 1/4 of all my time on Brew Day cleaning, cleaning, cleaning, disinfecting, and sanitizing. I go overboard... but it's all to keep the brew from going south.