That German Lager taste

[Vale71]

Why???
There's no starch at this point in the grain: you boil the grains after all stepped rests have been done. All starches have been converted already. What little is left is exracted already into the wort and is finishing its conversion in the tun while you are boiling the grain.

I'm afraid Mr. Kaiser was misinformed when he wrote that. There is always unconverted starch even in spent grains. Large commercial breweries routinely perform lab analysis on the spent grains to determine exactly how much unconverted starch is left to make sure it stays below certain values.

Decocting grains, even in the final step when all starch is fully converted but only in the liquid part, will release some starch which cannot then be converted any more and this will affect beer quality to some extent. That's the reason why decoction to mash-out temperature must always be performed by pulling liquid only. It's also the reason why efficiency will go up when performing a decoction instead of a simple infusion as decoction is more effective in releasing as much of the starch as possible from the grains.

If you're still unconvinced, when performing an iodine test before mash-out try performing it with some spent grains in the sample. You're guaranteed to always have a positive iodine reaction from the grains even when full conversion has already been achieved.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

The factors for getting that German Lager taste are not that lengthy nor complicated, but need to be backed up by good process, which is the harder part.

1. Use German Pilsner malt for most of your base unless doing a darker style or wheat beers in which case use German Munich or wheat malt in line with your recipe - you don't need to add specialty malts like Melanoidin. Pilsner malts are kilned to about 1.5L vs 3.5L for Maris Otter, they are very different. Maris Otter does not provide Pilsner flavor.
2. Use Noble Hops - don't dry hop, and stick to late addition hopping rates in accordance to style.
3. Use German lager yeasts - WLP833 (Ayinger), WLP830 ( Weihenstephaner, I think), are amongst my favorites.
4. Use the right water profile suitable for lagers and intended beer. Also, add acid or acidulated malt (authentic German) to achieve appropriate mash PH.
5. Decoction - not required, most German breweries do not do decoctions, but rather deploy a Hochkurz step mash, which may not make a big difference either (no good data on this)
6. Implement sound brewing practices - good sanitation, correct pitching rates, temperature control for both mashing and fermentation, decent low oxygen brewing practices. Hot side low oxygen practices are more difficult to implement. Cold side is easier and you will get more bang for your effort. Kegging and using closed transferring techniques work great and are not too difficult to do. If bottling, take extra care when doing so. Here is a link to a video that highlights the importance of good bottling practices -

To summarize - the right malts, yeast, hops, water backed up with good process and you can make awesome German lagers. Simple in theory, but requires having a good process to back up.

Below is a recipe for a Bitburger like clone with slightly lower IBU target - it was awesome. Hochkurz step mash, fermented at about 50.

 

[Protos]

I'm afraid Mr. Kaiser was misinformed when he wrote that. There is always unconverted starch even in spent grains. Large commercial breweries routinely perform lab analysis on the spent grains to determine exactly how much unconverted starch is left to make sure it stays below certain values.

Decocting grains, even in the final step when all starch is fully converted but only in the liquid part, will release some starch which cannot then be converted any more and this will affect beer quality to some extent. That's the reason why decoction to mash-out temperature must always be performed by pulling liquid only. It's also the reason why efficiency will go up when performing a decoction instead of a simple infusion as decoction is more effective in releasing as much of the starch as possible from the grains.

If you're still unconvinced, when performing an iodine test before mash-out try performing it with some spent grains in the sample. You're guaranteed to always have a positive iodine reaction from the grains even when full conversion has already been achieved.

Well, a great subject, worthy of doing some research.
I went to check Mr. Kaiser's sources, the main of which was Abriß der Bierbrauerei by Ludwig Narziss, a great classic book I happen to have in my library too. In Punkt 2.3.3.3 Narziss suggests five ways to perform a single decoction. The first is like this: Mash in at 35-37C, heat to 50C in course of 20 mins. and keep there for 15-30 mins.; then raise the temp in course of 15 mins. to 65C and keep there for 30 mins. Then draw the liquid part of the mash to another preheated kettle, while heating the thick part for full saccharificaton at 68-72C [exact dextrinization rest time is not specified - appaprently till the negative iodine test] and then boiling it for 15-30 mins. Then mix the boiled thick part into the liquid part and then start the filtration.
Then he adds (my exact translation): "It's also possible to draw the main [liquid] mash after [the whole wort] saccharification at 70C, however there might be a risk of weakened amylases not being active enough for full saccharification of significant quantity of starch, extracted into the solution during the boil".

So, both you and Mr. Kaiser are right. He says it's possible. You say it isn't because of lot of starch coming into the wort. And Dr. Narziss says it's possible, but risky because of lot of starch coming into the wort.
And what Mr Protos sez? He sez he has repeated this Mash-Out Decoction For Dummies for 12 or 15 times. Probably he was getting a lot of starch coming into his wort. Probably his Weyermann Malz amylazes were active enough to convert even that additional starch as he'd never noticed any detrimental effects of this simplest single-decoction on his beers. Apparently, many times he was unknowingly nearing the risky line but always somehow managed to stay at the safe side.
Next time I do this simple decoction routine (and I will do, as it has never failed me) I will do an iodine test to see what really happens in my mash, so thanks for the suggestion!

***
...But see what Johannes Olberg says in 1928 on decocting Kölsch:

Or after saccharification of the mash, about a third is left in the lauter tun while the other two-thirds is brought to the boil in the kettle and returned to the lauter tun to mash out at 76ºC.

It's from an article in Ron Pattinson's blog, to which (the article, not the blog) Hanglow turned my attention just recently in another thread here on HBT.
Then, we might see that even ~100 years ago, with their worse malts, they in Germany weren't scared too much of starch and did exactly what Protos sez he duz

 

[cyberbackpacker]

No, it isn't....
This doesn't change the fact that what you taste in commercial German beers has got nothing to do with LODO since German commercial breweries do not waste any time with such nonsense, that was just a blatant lie some guys tried to pander on this and other forums.
You'd also be surprised at how few German breweries still have Sauergut reactors in operation since with modern malt and moder water treatment it is not needed at all.

Yes, it is. See, I can do that too.

It's amazing how you discount the experience of @jdauria outright, based on his own experience/taste and demonstrative positive "blind" reactions to his brews with this technique based on scores of 40+ in comps using those techniques vs. not using them.

Just as much as you can claim that some guy is blatantly "pandering" a lie, I am going to say you are guilty of blatantly lying and denigrating known, peer reviewed and evidenced based, techniques for brewing modern German lagers.




EDIT: I'm done, I've said my piece and will leave it to stand for itself.

 

[dmtaylor]

Just as much as you can claim that some guy is blatantly "pandering" a lie, I am going to say you are guilty of blatantly lying and denigrating known, peer reviewed and evidenced based, techniques for brewing modern German lagers.

Ugh. Can we just stop this before it starts? That'd be cool.

 

[Pablo 54]

The factors for getting that German Lager taste are not that lengthy nor complicated, but need to be backed up by good process, which is the harder part.

1. Use German Pilsner malt for most of your base unless doing a darker style or wheat beers in which case use German Munich or wheat malt in line with your recipe - you don't need to add specialty malts like Melanoidin. Pilsner malts are kilned to about 1.5L vs 3.5L for Maris Otter, they are very different. Maris Otter does not provide Pilsner flavor.
2. Use Noble Hops - don't dry hop, and stick to late addition hopping rates in accordance to style.
3. Use German lager yeasts - WLP833 (Ayinger), WLP830 ( Weihenstephaner, I think), are amongst my favorites.
4. Use the right water profile suitable for lagers and intended beer. Also, add acid or acidulated malt (authentic German) to achieve appropriate mash PH.
5. Decoction - not required, most German breweries do not do decoctions, but rather deploy a Hochkurz step mash, which may not make a big difference either (no good data on this)
6. Implement sound brewing practices - good sanitation, correct pitching rates, temperature control for both mashing and fermentation, decent low oxygen brewing practices. Hot side low oxygen practices are more difficult to implement. Cold side is easier and you will get more bang for your effort. Kegging and using closed transferring techniques work great and are not too difficult to do. If bottling, take extra care when doing so. Here is a link to a video that highlights the importance of good bottling practices -

To summarize - the right malts, yeast, hops, water backed up with good process and you can make awesome German lagers. Simple in theory, but requires having a good process to back up.

Below is a recipe for a Bitburger like clone with slightly lower IBU target - it was awesome. Hochkurz step mash, fermented at about 50.

View attachment 743219
View attachment 743220

This.
The only reason I got into homebrewing was because I wanted to recreate the beers I enjoyed while in Europe (German, Czech, Austrian, etc.). The one thing I would add that can be controlled by the homebrewer is Open Fermentation. Try it. 3 days only. Scoop the dark krausen until it is whitish, give it a vigorous stir, do it 2 or 3 more times then seal it up and then go on about your fermentation schedule.
One big point, if you have access to the malster that supplies the grains to your favorite brewery, and they will agree to sell you the identical malt, then you have something going. If not, you will always create something that could be seen as being "inspired by" but not a "clone".

 

[cactusgarrett]

Open Fermentation. Try it. 3 days only.

Curious what you're getting out of this technique (krausen skimming) that others aren't. I'd posit that this is a very unpopular practice, and the few pieces of work I've seen done on it (namely this, and this) suggest it doesn't lend itself in a discernable way.

 

[cyberbackpacker]

I think I might use some when I do my next German style just to see what it’s like.

edit: I confused Sauergut with sauermalz, no chance I’m going to mess with Sauergut.

If you've ever considered a kettle sour, Sauergut is actually a bit easier. Nothing to be afraid of... wort and a handful of grain.

The good thing is it's carrying Lacto which is on your grain (and therefore in your brewery) all the time, and basically lacto is negated by the use of hops, so no worry about "future" problems with it.

Just something to consider.

Lots of levers that can be pulled in brewing, this is just another one that is available...

 

[duncan.brown]

Wyeast 2308 Munich Lager is my absolute favorite strain for helles, followed by 2206 Bavarian Lager Yeast. 2308 needs care, but a good helles is process, process, process. Here's a nice site with some good resources:

https://edelstoffquest.wordpress.com

 

[Bilsch]

This same question comes up often and the answers are always the same. It seems to me by now it should be pretty obvious that something is still missing or these same old suggestions would be producing results.. no?

As was already mentioned using the proper hops and malts is important but beyond that your brewing practice must be flawless. Light clean well attenuated lagers leave no place for off flavors to hide so you must be at the top of your process game and this includes attention to oxygen mitigation on BOTH the hot and cold side. Unfortunately some here still cling to the old dogma of HSA not being a thing but in fact it's avoidance is a well researched topic and taught in major brewing schools throughout Europe.

If your goal is making beers similar to those you tasted in Munich yet you do not believe in HSA then you might as well save yourself the years of aggravation and frustration and just RDWHAHB.

 

[Bilsch]

You'd also be surprised at how few German breweries still have Sauergut reactors in operation since with modern malt and moder water treatment it is not needed at all.

Uh.. you are aware that without sauergut the lagers of Germany would be completely different, right? If you cannot taste the SG prominently in the flavor then I honestly feel very sorry for you.

Also.. without it, how do you suppose they make their kettle pH adjustments?
Reinheitsgewhat?

 

[csantoni]

I’m not necessarily trying to do anything EXACTLY how the Germans do. I had just noticed a particular quality I liked that I wouldn’t mind replicating if I could.

My brewing philosophy is to make the best beer, that I enjoy drinking, that I can with my equipment, water, and process. I figure ingredients, water, and a bit of process are the variables I can control.

 

[Lupulus]

No, it isn't.

Yes, it is.

 

[Lupulus]

This doesn't change the fact that what you taste in commercial German beers has got nothing to do with LODO since German commercial breweries do not waste any time with such nonsense, that was just a blatant lie some guys tried to pander on this and other forums.
You'd also be surprised at how few German breweries still have Sauergut reactors in operation since with modern malt and moder water treatment it is not needed at all.

1. Narziss, Kunze, W Back are not "some guys", nor they pander blatant lies. They have educated the best brewers in the world.
2. Sauergut reactors are mentioned in the most recent German literature... because nobody uses them... Silly.
3. It's odd that there's no literature reference supporting your arguments. Maybe you need to write a book and show the world how it's done.
4. You know all the above is true but you enjoy trolling.
I'll drop the mic and let you have the last troll.
Prost.

 

[dmtaylor]

 

[Pablo 54]

Curious what you're getting out of this technique (krausen skimming) that others aren't. I'd posit that this is a very unpopular practice, and the few pieces of work I've seen done on it (namely this, and this) suggest it doesn't lend itself in a discernable way.

I should have been clearer on what I wrote. I currently use open fermentation on 100% of my hefe's and, since I've switched to low oxygen brewing with a little bit of pressure fermentation, I've stopped doing this on my other beers.
Probably the best description would be less "bite". I know that's not a great description but I've been trying almost everything under the sun to recreate a perfect German hefe. Open Fermentation has produced a smoother taste and mouth feel.
My ferm chamber is a chest freezer. I use an old Anvil stainless 7 gal fermenter and cover the top with a 5 gal painters' mesh bag, sprayed with StarSan. About every 12 hours or so, I'll open the chest freezer, pull the mesh bag aside, scrape off the very top of the krausen, and then finish with a vigorous stir. I'll then "waive" the lid to pull in more air and push out the built-up CO2.
Repeat a couple of times until the krausen no longer builds. Bonus: It is kind of cool to see and hear the yeast doing it's "job". Also, this is about the only beer I bottle condition.

 

[Pablo 54]

Wyeast 2308 Munich Lager is my absolute favorite strain for helles, followed by 2206 Bavarian Lager Yeast. 2308 needs care, but a good helles is process, process, process. Here's a nice site with some good resources:

https://edelstoffquest.wordpress.com

Edelstoffquest has a section on Wheat Beers. I used to use the mash schedule from Markus Herrmann but have tweaked it a bit. Great articles.

 

[Bilsch]

Just an FYI.. this guy behind the quest for Edelstoff site.. Nico, was one of the original members of the GBF Low Oxygen group and also a co-author of the German Helles paper that started the whole lodo wave.

 

[Miraculix]

Just an FYI.. this guy behind the quest for Edelstoff site.. Nico, was one of the original members of the GBF Low Oxygen group and also a co-author of the German Helles paper that started the whole lodo wave.

I don't find references in German papers to lodo brewing stuff. I just read a work of a professor that was summarising something like 30 diploma (German equivalent to master of science or engineering) thesis, many papers and so on ... Lots about process, about mashing temperatures, about barley varieties, about dekoktion, but I have yet to find a reference in there that resembles something like the stuff propagated by the lodo guys.

 

[dmtaylor]

If it's in a thick expensive text book written by dead German guys, well then that's good enough for me.

 

[Bilsch]

I don't find references in German papers to lodo brewing stuff. I just read a work of a professor that was summarising something like 30 diploma (German equivalent to master of science or engineering) thesis, many papers and so on ... Lots about process, about mashing temperatures, about barley varieties, about dekoktion, but I have yet to find a reference in there that resembles something like the stuff propagated by the lodo guys.

Let me help you find some to get you started then. Here are a couple good ones, there are many more.

Enzymic and Non-Enzymic Oxidation in the Brewhouse: A Theoretical Consideration

New Procedures to Improve the Flavor Stability of Beer

Investigating the evolution of free staling aldehydes throughout the wort production process

A Challenge in the Study of Flavour Instability

Oxidative Enzyme Effects in Malt for Brewing

The Chemistry of Beer Aging: A Critical Review

Ascorbic Acid Oxidase in Barley and Malt and Its Possible Role During Mashing1

Impacts of Copper, Iron, and Manganese Metal Ions on the EPR Assessment of Beer Oxidative Stability

 

[Ridenour64]

Waiting for the replies.

 

[Bilsch]

"People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?"

 

[goodolarchie]

Wow this went to the seventh ring of dante's inferno and back...

For a long time I sought the classic german lager flavor and aroma, I was always using german hallertauer region hops, continental pilsner malt, RO adjusted water etc. I didn't get there until I started using the Augustiner strain and really focused on getting great clarity, removing all of that yeast. I could get there with w34/70 and gelatin but it was never quite the same. It's remarkable how much just a bit of yeast covers the very nuanced flavors you reach at that final level.

So I am very patient with fermentation, use floating dip tube to rack off... no gelatin, just time and very very cold temps.

 

[duncan.brown]

Oh no, I thought this thread was about yeast!

 

[BigEd]

While I wait for some HB batches to mature, I've been drinking a lot of German lagers. I've had a few in the past but I'm definitely not as familiar with them as with English and American styles. One thing I've noticed is they all have a distinct flavor that makes me say, "ah, that's a German beer." I can't really describe the flavor but it's present in both the light and dark styles.

My question is, what ingredient gives that flavor? Yeast? Malt? Hops? My own Oktoberfest (which admittedly still needs to mature) doesn't have this quality, but I used a fairly clean yeast, Marris Otter, and just a bit of Hallertauer so I mostly taste the MO.

These are the beers I've been drinking, in case that matters:
Weihenstephaner Original
Paulaner Münchner Lager
Spaten Oktoberfestbier
Ayinger Oktober Fest Märzen

There's already lots of good info in the thread responses here so forgive me if I generalize a bit and repeat thoughts previously posted. To me there is a both a structure and indigenous flavors in good German lagers that do set them apart. BTW all the beers you listed are Bavarian and close to Munich which many would say is the home of the best German beers.

Yes it's the ingredients. German malt is delicious and is the heart of the flavor in those beers. British pale malt made from Marris-Ottter barley is excellent malt and has a wonderful flavor profile but it does not taste "German". So yeah it's going to make a tasty beer but it just won't taste like a German Oktoberfest. This malt thing works in both directions, so if I'm brewing a Special Bitter or ESB it's going to have a base of UK pale malt.

Yeast makes a difference. Use a German strain and in the case of those Bavarian styles one with southern German origins. Pitch a big starter and pay attention to fermentation temperatures. Technique and precision are important ingredients too.

Definitely choose German hops to compliment your German malt. For starters I stay with traditional German noble varieties like Hallertuer, Spalter, Tettnanger, etc. There are new types as well but I'd suggest staying with simple, proven hops to get started.

Mashing technique is a big factor. I like a decoction mash best for these beers but I'd save that for down the road. A Hochkurz mash schedule of 45 minutes @ 64C/147F followed by 30 minutes @ 70C/158F is simple enough to accomplish with most equipment and will help achieve the good body combined with a clean, dry finish that separates good German lagers from others.

Keep your recipe simple. These aren't kitchen sink beers. Lots of good base malt and discrete amounts of caramel or other specialty malts if you must. Same thing with the hop schedule. Save your dry hopping for bitters and IPA. One main bittering addition for 60 minutes and a small late addition at 15/20 minutes for a little extra flavor if desired.

 

[Miraculix]

Let me help you find some to get you started then. Here are a couple good ones, there are many more.

Enzymic and Non-Enzymic Oxidation in the Brewhouse: A Theoretical Consideration

New Procedures to Improve the Flavor Stability of Beer

Investigating the evolution of free staling aldehydes throughout the wort production process

A Challenge in the Study of Flavour Instability

Oxidative Enzyme Effects in Malt for Brewing

The Chemistry of Beer Aging: A Critical Review

Ascorbic Acid Oxidase in Barley and Malt and Its Possible Role During Mashing1

Impacts of Copper, Iron, and Manganese Metal Ions on the EPR Assessment of Beer Oxidative Stability

You are aware that oxidation is not limited to oxygen right? While I'm not able to read every single one of these articles right now, half of them imply something new, so they cannot be the reason for already existing "German taste", while others are talking about oxidation via enzymes, however that might work, and the last one talks about ascorbic acid, which is not used during German beer production, cannot be the reason either.

And then, there are plenty of small breweries that make marvelous beer, with nothing but traditional methods and their beer tastes incredibly German, whatever that taste might be. These guys don't use lodo stuff.

We don't need your new beer religion here in Germany to brew good beer .

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

This kinds of reminds me of a fruitful discussion that happened on this site a bit more than a year ago.... If I recall correctly I think it had something to do with whether German breweries de-areate their water for the brewhouse or not...

 

[Lupulus]

If it's in a thick expensive text book written by dead German guys, well then that's good enough for me.

Text books are created to summarize the state-of-the-art knowledge in a given field. Every field.
It takes a lot of work to update them, so they go away after the first edition if they are not good.
I guess there's always one lay person saying the same about Molecular Biology of the Cell (or Gene); Gray's Anatomy; Guyton and Hall's Physiology.
Findings and data in the book are not less true because of an insult.
As Galileo said... "Eppur si muove".

 

[Miraculix]

Text books are created to summarize the state-of-the-art knowledge in a given field. Every field.
It takes a lot of work to update them, so they go away after the first edition if they are not good.
I guess there's always one lay person saying the same about Molecular Biology of the Cell (or Gene); Gray's Anatomy; Guyton and Hall's Physiology.
Findings and data in the book are not less true because of an insult.
As Galileo said... "Eppur si muove".

That is true. We should keep in mind that the "German beer flavour" was probably already there before the 80s or 70s, when did this lodo thing start?