Spike Complete System

[daveerickson]

Your losing 4 degrees while recirculating? you will lose a bit (usually 1-2 degrees) from the hoses which is normal but this should be fairly easy to compensate for and its best to shorten the hoses to reduce this. also make sure but temp probes are reading the same and adjust the offset if needed. honestly if your recirculating without dialing the flow down, with a 15" false bottom you have to be getting some serious channeling rice hulls or not.
I use a regular bayou classic kettle with false bottom which is thinner than the spike stuff and even when recirculating at 1.5gpm on my flow meter I can still maintain and stepmash fine (with 91% efficiency and a 1.030 crush and no rice hulls)

at the brewery we use a riptide for recirculating thru a 28" wide false bottom and flow rate is 4-5gpm depending on mash...(85% average there)

Indeed, like TheMadKing I have about a 4 degree delta. It never occurred to me I may be circulating too fast, and I have no flow meter to know what I'm at. Do you have a recommended flowmeter?

I also think I can tighten up my crush, but only if I can be sure my flow rate isn't going to cause even more channeling. Thank you for the suggestions.

 

[daveerickson]

That matches what I've seen with regard to temp loss. I have a 4 degree delta between HLT temp and HERMS return temp when the riptide is at full flow (when I'm heating strike water). But when I slow the flow down to a trickle for the mash, I have a 0-1 degree delta between the HERMS return and the HLT temperature but the flow rate is so slow that it takes a long time to raise the mash temp if I'm doing a step mash using the HERMS. So for a step mash, I normally will crank the flow rate up during the step and then when I hit temp, drop the flow rate back down and stir the mash vigorously to re settle the grain bed.

It never occurred to me a too high of flow rate would cause the MT to trail the HLT, meaning the wort isn't coming up to HLT temps through 50' of coil...

I'm going to have to try some tests to see how adjusting flow rate affects temperature. I was wondering how Kal's setup had both kettles within a degree. Thanks for the insight.

 

[itsnotrequired]

with the hlt coil fully submerged, you should have no problem with coil wort existing temp matching the hlt. faster flows actually work better from this standpoint, feeding warmer liquid into the mlt faster but once up to temp, a slower flow should be fine, assuming you are not brewing in a cold garage or something like that. i personally set my hlt one degree warmer than mash and run the pump about 75% open, no issues.

 

[daveerickson]

with the hlt coil fully submerged, you should have no problem with coil wort existing temp matching the hlt. faster flows actually work better from this standpoint, feeding warmer liquid into the mlt faster but once up to temp, a slower flow should be fine, assuming you are not brewing in a cold garage or something like that. i personally set my hlt one degree warmer than mash and run the pump about 75% open, no issues.

In my case my coil is fully submerged in about 15 gallons of water. It seemed to me a faster flow rate would keep the two vessels with the closest temps possible, but I observe a 4 degree loss in the MT full open with a riptide.

With the observation that a slower flow rate has maintained a smaller temperature delta, and that I may be channeling due to high flow rate, I'm inclined to try reducing flow rate during the mash next brew day to see what happens.

 

[augiedoggy]

I dont know if the SS HLT has a pump to circulate the water in the HLT but thats another factor here... the herms coil will act like a chiller coil in the water with slightly cooler liquid in the coil bringing the temp of the water directly around the coil down slightly... recirculating slowly allows the natural movement of warmer liquid to be more effective in stirring the liquid up enough to get and keep the liquid in the coil up to temp. I had a lot of issues with this before I upgraded from my herms to a rims.

the 91% I average from my home system is not a fluke, I have brewed and gotten between 87 and 92% on the last 40 brew sessions roughly and since slowing my sparge down the average went from 89 to 91% pretty consistently for non adjunct beers.

we follow the same principal at the brewpub and average 85% there only we use rice hulls and 4-5gpm due to the much larger surface area of false bottom so theres no reason you folks shoulding be averaging at least the same on the ss system, its a solid design.

 

[TheMadKing]

with the hlt coil fully submerged, you should have no problem with coil wort existing temp matching the hlt. faster flows actually work better from this standpoint

Faster flows result in less contact time between the liquid inside the coil and the HLT temperature and therefore less heat transfer.

The same is true going the opposite direction with wort chillers. That's why we don't chill with the flow rate at maximum. Slower flow = more heat transfer.

 

[TheMadKing]

In my case my coil is fully submerged in about 15 gallons of water. It seemed to me a faster flow rate would keep the two vessels with the closest temps possible, but I observe a 4 degree loss in the MT full open with a riptide.

With the observation that a slower flow rate has maintained a smaller temperature delta, and that I may be channeling due to high flow rate, I'm inclined to try reducing flow rate during the mash next brew day to see what happens.

There is a lag between the two vessels that can be calculated based on total volume turnover, temperature rise in the coil, and mixing with the MT temperature.

If you leave the mash tun recircing through the HERMS coil for about an hour or more, the two tank temperatures will eventually equalize. There is an ideal flow rate where heat transfer and water turnover are optimal. A higher flow rate will result in less heat transfer but more turnover, and a slower flow rate will result in less turnover but more complete heat transfer.

Also, while the mash tun temperature is steadily rising there will always be a lag. Think of it like towing a heavy car, you can only go as fast as the single engine is able to pull them both, but as soon as you slow down, the car being towed catches up to the towing car until they collide. (not a perfect analogy but it gets the visual across)

the HLT temperature is dragging the mash tun temp up at the maximum speed possible (as determined by flow rate and HLT temp). When the HLT temperature reaches its set point, and is held there, the mash tun temperature will slowly catch up until it equalizes with it.

Once the mash has started, you now have to worry about grain channelling more than changing temperature quickly so a slower flow rate is better. The delta between HERMS in and HERMS out doesn't matter much during the mash (except during step mashes), as long as you are maintaining your mash temp.

 

[itsnotrequired]

Faster flows result in less contact time between the liquid inside the coil and the HLT temperature and therefore less heat transfer.

The same is true going the opposite direction with wort chillers. That's why we don't chill with the flow rate at maximum. Slower flow = more heat transfer.

the temperature difference between the mlt and hlt is low enough and the heat transfer surface area of the coil large enough that the flow rate almost doesn't matter. the pump simply can't move the wort fast enough through the coil such that the existing wort won't come up to temp and match the hlt temp on the coil exit. if brewing in a cold environment without an insulated mlt, you will likely need faster flow just to maintain the mash temp, due to mlt heat loss to the environment. flow rate while mashing shouldn't matter when at temp, except if channeling occurs or there is a temp maintenance issue.

when chilling, there is a very large temperature difference between the wort and cooling water so flow rate is more important here. idea is to run the cooling water full throttle and throttle the wort flow as necessary based on whatever max temp of chilled wort you want. i use a hopstopper and typically need to throttle down wort flow near the end, that is when i throttle back my chilling water rate, just to save water.

4 degree difference between mlt and hlt seems nuts and points to either a very cold brewing environment, crazy long hoses or mis-calibrated temp probes. spike system comes with that second pump to recirc the hlt so temp stratification in there should not be an issue.

 

[TheMadKing]

the temperature difference between the mlt and hlt is low enough and the heat transfer surface area of the coil large enough that the flow rate almost doesn't matter. the pump simply can't move the wort fast enough through the coil such that the existing wort won't come up to temp and match the hlt temp on the coil exit. if brewing in a cold environment without an insulated mlt, you will likely need faster flow just to maintain the mash temp, due to mlt heat loss to the environment. flow rate while mashing shouldn't matter when at temp, except if channeling occurs or there is a temp maintenance issue.

when chilling, there is a very large temperature difference between the wort and cooling water so flow rate is more important here. idea is to run the cooling water full throttle and throttle the wort flow as necessary based on whatever max temp of chilled wort you want. i use a hopstopper and typically need to throttle down wort flow near the end, that is when i throttle back my chilling water rate, just to save water.

4 degree difference between mlt and hlt seems nuts and points to either a very cold brewing environment, crazy long hoses or mis-calibrated temp probes. spike system comes with that second pump to recirc the hlt so temp stratification in there should not be an issue.

We're talking about two different things and I think you are agreeing with my earlier statement.

For maintaining mash temps, the flow rate only matters insofar as it prevents channeling. The flow right while coming up to strike temp and while step mashing does matter, as demonstrated by the 4 degree delta during full flow vs 0-1 degree at restricted flow.

 

[itsnotrequired]

We're talking about two different things and I think you are agreeing with my earlier statement.

For maintaining mash temps, the flow rate only matters insofar as it prevents channeling. The flow right while coming up to strike temp and while step mashing does matter, as demonstrated by the 4 degree delta during full flow vs 0-1 degree at restricted flow.

dave hasn't tested a reduced flow rate but a temp difference between full flow and slow flow doesn't make sense. sure, efficiency could be shot with potential channeling at high flow but the temperature should be roughly the same between the two methods. if i had to guess right now, i would say it is a temp probe calibration issue, he will see that same 4 degree delta even with a slow flow rate.

 

[TheMadKing]

dave hasn't tested a reduced flow rate but a temp difference between full flow and slow flow doesn't make sense. sure, efficiency could be shot with potential channeling at high flow but the temperature should be roughly the same between the two methods. if i had to guess right now, i would say it is a temp probe calibration issue, he will see that same 4 degree delta even with a slow flow rate.

Again we are talking apples and oranges.

I have observed this directly on my system. The 4 degree delta is only occurring while there is a large temperature difference between MT and HLT (i.e. while step mashing, and coming up to mash temp).

 

[itsnotrequired]

Again we are talking apples and oranges.

I have observed this directly on my system. The 4 degree delta is only occurring while there is a large temperature difference between MT and HLT (i.e. while step mashing, and coming up to mash temp).

well, i guess we need dave to confirm when he is seeing this 4 degree difference. i took it to mean during the steady-state 'normal' part of the mash, where a difference in flow rate shouldn't have much impact on the temp of the mash.

for sure there is lag when adjusting temp, i observe the same on my system.

 

[daveerickson]

I am seeing a continual 4 degree delta during an entire 90 mash.

I brew in my basement which is in the low 60's. I have a 4' hose from the mash pump to HERMS in, and 3' hoses from HERMS out to MT inlet and MT outlet to mash pump. I don't see any way to shorten up the hoses while retaining my ability to pump to my BK.

When I turn on my controller all temp probes agree on the ambient temperature. It's possible as the temps go up one probe/pid scales differently, so I think I should run a test with maybe 10 gallons in my MT and my HLT coil submerged. Then I can use a dial thermometer to test both tanks. Oh, I do constantly recirculate my HLT, also wide open though I'd think the faster I turn the HLT the better.

As is common in home brewing I am way down a rabbit hole on recirculation during mash. Arguably more important than flaw rate is vacuum pressure on the grain bed. A manometer may be a better gauge of proper pump adjustment, though there can be challenges installing one properly. Maybe a grant would be a good way to remove the ability to create a vacuum and recirculate at the rate the grain bed will allow...

I appreciate everyone's contribution to this discussion. I'm sure to make some process improvements when it's all said and done.

 

[TheMadKing]

I am seeing a continual 4 degree delta during an entire 90 mash.

I brew in my basement which is in the low 60's. I have a 4' hose from the mash pump to HERMS in, and 3' hoses from HERMS out to MT inlet and MT outlet to mash pump. I don't see any way to shorten up the hoses while retaining my ability to pump to my BK.

When I turn on my controller all temp probes agree on the ambient temperature. It's possible as the temps go up one probe/pid scales differently, so I think I should run a test with maybe 10 gallons in my MT and my HLT coil submerged. Then I can use a dial thermometer to test both tanks. Oh, I do constantly recirculate my HLT, also wide open though I'd think the faster I turn the HLT the better.

As is common in home brewing I am way down a rabbit hole on recirculation during mash. Arguably more important than flaw rate is vacuum pressure on the grain bed. A manometer may be a better gauge of proper pump adjustment, though there can be challenges installing one properly. Maybe a grant would be a good way to remove the ability to create a vacuum and recirculate at the rate the grain bed will allow...

I appreciate everyone's contribution to this discussion. I'm sure to make some process improvements when it's all said and done.

And just to confirm that 4 degree difference is between your Mash tun out and mash tun in?

Or is that between the HLT water and the mash temp out?

Mash temp out = temperature entering the HERMS coil, and is the actual temperature of your mash (or pretty close)
Mash temp in = temperature exiting the HERMS coil and is the temperature you are raising your mash to.

I definitely see a 4 degree lag between HLT water and mash temp during the entire mash

 

[augiedoggy]

If your brewing in your basement you should no be seeing a 4 degree difference. I would check both your probes in the same glass of water to make sure they are calibrated the same.
The slower flow works fine but it does take a couple extra minutes to get the mash up to the correct temp if you mash in low. also if you step mash it takes a couple extra minutes until everything equalizes but it does equalize more evenly since theres no channeling. It works better for some of the same reasons sparging slowly works better.

There should not be that much temp loss in the mash due to uninsulated walls at this size at all. I dont see it and I do most of my brewing in the winter in a very old house with no heat register in the room.. its usually low to mid 60s where I brew plus I have the window open with a fan for the hood.

 

[daveerickson]

Good question, and I've clearly made some assumptions. I'll detail how I'm setup to hopefully answer your questions.

I measure temp in my MT and HLT from tees in the outlets. The 4 degrees difference is between the MT and HLT temps at these locations. I have assumed that the inlet of the HERMS temp would be equal to the outlet of the MT temp, and the outlet of the HERMS temp would be equal to the HLT temp. In my mind that means if my HLT temp is at 152, and MT temp is at 148, my mash temp covers a gradient of 148 to 152. In this scenario I assumed that the faster I recirculate the smaller the gradient would be.

I was part of another discussion about temp probe placement that lead me to this conclusion, though that doesn't necessarily mean it's correct. What do you/others use for temp probe placement, and how does that play into your target temps?

 

[augiedoggy]

My MT probe placement was in the exiting tee... honestly because the liquid is recirculating at a steady pace through these tees it should work well measuring here you may lose a degree or so from actual temp though.

 

[itsnotrequired]

Good question, and I've clearly made some assumptions. I'll detail how I'm setup to hopefully answer your questions.

I measure temp in my MT and HLT from tees in the outlets. The 4 degrees difference is between the MT and HLT temps at these locations. I have assumed that the inlet of the HERMS temp would be equal to the outlet of the MT temp, and the outlet of the HERMS temp would be equal to the HLT temp. In my mind that means if my HLT temp is at 152, and MT temp is at 148, my mash temp covers a gradient of 148 to 152. In this scenario I assumed that the faster I recirculate the smaller the gradient would be.

I was part of another discussion about temp probe placement that lead me to this conclusion, though that doesn't necessarily mean it's correct. What do you/others use for temp probe placement, and how does that play into your target temps?

i use spike kettles and have the temp probes in the same location as you do, brew in the basement where it can get cold in the winter, no insulation on mlt. i'm with augiedoggy, you shouldn't be seeing that big of a temp difference between the mlt and hlt probes during the steady-state portion of the mash, especially with the short hose lengths you have.

as a test, recirc hot water in just the hlt and compare the PID temp readout to a thermapen or some other type of accurate thermometer that is right in the water, see if they match. repeat with recirc just in the mlt (not through the coil) and measure that. adjust temp offsets in PIDs as necessary. it could be that every temp is in agreement with one another but man, that seems weird...

 

[daveerickson]

Clearly I have some testing to do. Does someone by chance know how to calibrate temp on the ebrew pid's? I'm not seeing anything in the online documentation, but will also check the paper that came with it when I get home.

 

[itsnotrequired]

Clearly I have some testing to do. Does someone by chance know how to calibrate temp on the ebrew pid's? I'm not seeing anything in the online documentation, but will also check the paper that came with it when I get home.

you got the love or ebs-branded pids? the love ones are black, ebs-branded have an off-white trim but there are a couple different versions.

if love, go here: http://16c.ebrew.supply/

if ebs-branded, go here: http://ebsp101.ebrew.supply/

or here: http://ebsp200.ebrew.supply/

links will launch a pdf download with user manual. love temp correction is on page 12 of the pdf, need to read back a few pages on how to get to the menu on the pid to change it. if ebs, check out page 3, left column, 'input offset'. if you have the 200-series ebs pid, check out bottom of page 2, right side, input offset.

 

[TheMadKing]

I don't agree with the above assessments.

You are describing a 4 degree difference between your bulk HLT temperature and your bulk mash temp. I see the exact same thing in my system, and have verified it with a thermapen.

That's perfectly normal and spike actually says to expect an 8 degree difference due to the temp loss through the hoses. Just set your HLT temp 4 degrees higher than you want your mash temp and problem solved.

 

[daveerickson]

you got the love or ebs-branded pids? the love ones are black, ebs-branded have an off-white trim but there are a couple different versions.

if love, go here: http://16c.ebrew.supply/

if ebs-branded, go here: http://ebsp101.ebrew.supply/

or here: http://ebsp200.ebrew.supply/

links will launch a pdf download with user manual. love temp correction is on page 12 of the pdf, need to read back a few pages on how to get to the menu on the pid to change it. if ebs, check out page 3, left column, 'input offset'. if you have the 200-series ebs pid, check out bottom of page 2, right side, input offset.

Awesome, thank you for this info.

 

[daveerickson]

I don't agree with the above assessments.

You are describing a 4 degree difference between your bulk HLT temperature and your bulk mash temp. I see the exact same thing in my system, and have verified it with a thermapen.

That's perfectly normal and spike actually says to expect an 8 degree difference due to the temp loss through the hoses. Just set your HLT temp 4 degrees higher than you want your mash temp and problem solved.

I really want to get to the bottom of this and know what is actually so. Kal's video shows his MT and HLT within a degree of each other with temp probes in the same place. Others confirm they also don't see such differences. You and I both have similar deltas, and Spike calls out that there will be a drop. Why?

It makes sense to me that as wort recirculates through the grain bed in an uninsulated stainless kettle it'll cool some. The HLT is clearly constantly cooling which is why the PID keeps turning the element on and off, why would the MT be any different?

It occurs to me I should know what temperature I have and where, and what effect that has on the enzymes. Everyone treats mash temp as a single value that you hit, but it occurs to me it may be more of a gradient. I want to get to the bottom of this and understand what is so.

I won't be running these test for a little bit, but I'll be sure to post back what I find. Thanks for everyone's participation.

 

[augiedoggy]

I don't agree with the above assessments.

You are describing a 4 degree difference between your bulk HLT temperature and your bulk mash temp. I see the exact same thing in my system, and have verified it with a thermapen.

That's perfectly normal and spike actually says to expect an 8 degree difference due to the temp loss through the hoses. Just set your HLT temp 4 degrees higher than you want your mash temp and problem solved.

8 degrees drop=something wrong with the system.
A normal rims or herms has a 1-2 degree variation when brewing indoors anything more than that and I would be working on trying to figure out why. If im not mistaken there was a thread about either spike or ss stating to turn the mash pump on and off as needed to only use the herms when needed which was also not the ideal way to use this system and wont result in even temps. One way out of having to deal with training and helping each customer would be to throw some broad number ranges out there but I know from reading countless herms and rims thread that a 1 to 2 degree drop in temp from the hose and pump is the typical results. Not 8 degrees.
The conversion is also taking place in the hoses and herms coil, it would not be a very good temp control system if it was continuously going up and down 8 degrees on every pass.

one problem than many dont account for is stratification in the HLT as I mentioned earlier I dumped my herms because of it. Ideally you want some type of pump recirculation the water in the hlt otherwise the HLT temp become very uneven at different places in the kettle like around the herms coil and element themselves. its doesn not naturally mix even fast enough for the same reasons people find moving an immersion coil around or stirring the wort while chilling works way more effectively. For this reason many use a temp probe measuring the wort output from the herms to control the hlt heat during the mash if they dont have a way to keep consistent accurate hlt temps.

Even a cheap dc pump would work well for this.

 

[augiedoggy]

I really want to get to the bottom of this and know what is actually so. Kal's video shows his MT and HLT within a degree of each other with temp probes in the same place. Others confirm they also don't see such differences. You and I both have similar deltas, and Spike calls out that there will be a drop. Why?

It makes sense to me that as wort recirculates through the grain bed in an uninsulated stainless kettle it'll cool some. The HLT is clearly constantly cooling which is why the PID keeps turning the element on and off, why would the MT be any different?

It occurs to me I should know what temperature I have and where, and what effect that has on the enzymes. Everyone treats mash temp as a single value that you hit, but it occurs to me it may be more of a gradient. I want to get to the bottom of this and understand what is so.

I won't be running these test for a little bit, but I'll be sure to post back what I find. Thanks for everyone's participation.

not all herms or rims are created equal.. some have much tighter temp control than others. This is just as true for rims where some folks use a high powered element and superheat some of the wort that happens to come in direct contact with the element surface while passing through /denaturing those enzymes but then mixes with the cooler wort that doesnt touch the element before it hits the temp probe mounted all the way at the opposite end of the tube... Sure its working but not as well as the wort becomes less fermentible.

You can do what I did and get a thermometer with a long probe and check the temp of your HLT water while mashing and you will find its all over the place at different areas of the hlt.. I was constantly battling inconsistent temps until I used a pump to basically whirlpool my hlt water.

 

[itsnotrequired]

eight degrees difference? in the words of seinfeld's kramer, "that's kooky talk!" full disclosure, i do not have the actual spike system but i am using spike kettles/false bottom as well as an ebrew supply panel so it is essentially a spike system. same as augiedoggy, one degree, maybe two between mash and hlt. if running the hlt recirc full-throttle and even as low as 1/4 throttle on mash recirc, no way you should see an eight degree difference. i suppose if you only heated the mash water to mash temp and then dumped in the grain with only a trickle of recirc, then sure, mash temp would drop due to the cold grain and never really recover with the slow recirc flow but that is improper use of the system.

i pulled up the process manual for the spike system and noticed they call for filling the mt with cold water, recircing through the coil to bring up to temp. that seems like it would take a while, i've always just heated everything in the hlt and then fill the mt with hot water from the hlt. water wil heat faster in the hlt with direct contact with the heating element, compared to indirect exchange heating through the coil. but maybe it isn't that much of a time difference? i've never tried it spike's way, just noticed it.

 

[daveerickson]

not all herms or rims are created equal.. some have much tighter temp control than others. This is just as true for rims where some folks use a high powered element and superheat some of the wort that happens to come in direct contact with the element surface while passing through /denaturing those enzymes but then mixes with the cooler wort that doesnt touch the element before it hits the temp probe mounted all the way at the opposite end of the tube... Sure its working but not as well as the wort becomes less fermentible.

You can do what I did and get a thermometer with a long probe and check the temp of your HLT water while mashing and you will find its all over the place at different areas of the hlt.. I was constantly battling inconsistent temps until I used a pump to basically whirlpool my hlt water.

Good info. FWIW I am recirculating my HLT full open with a riptide. It sort of whirlpools with the inlet from the top pointed down and to the side a bit. I haven't ruled it out, but I'm guessing it's not stratified.

 

[daveerickson]

eight degrees difference? in the words of seinfeld's kramer, "that's kooky talk!" full disclosure, i do not have the actual spike system but i am using spike kettles/false bottom as well as an ebrew supply panel so it is essentially a spike system. same as augiedoggy, one degree, maybe two between mash and hlt. if running the hlt recirc full-throttle and even as low as 1/4 throttle on mash recirc, no way you should see an eight degree difference. i suppose if you only heated the mash water to mash temp and then dumped in the grain with only a trickle of recirc, then sure, mash temp would drop due to the cold grain and never really recover with the slow recirc flow but that is improper use of the system.

i pulled up the process manual for the spike system and noticed they call for filling the mt with cold water, recircing through the coil to bring up to temp. that seems like it would take a while, i've always just heated everything in the hlt and then fill the mt with hot water from the hlt. water wil heat faster in the hlt with direct contact with the heating element, compared to indirect exchange heating through the coil. but maybe it isn't that much of a time difference? i've never tried it spike's way, just noticed it.

I also didn't purchase the complete system from Spike. I bought their kettles, without the temp probe in the kettle as I was going to recirc and measure from an outlet tee, and with an additional tc on the BK for a steam condenser. I bought a 50a ebrew kit with an additional pump so can do full back to back batches at some point.

I heat strike water in the BK, and set HLT to desired mash temp. Then transfer from BK to MT and add grain. Seems to work well.

 

[itsnotrequired]

Good info. FWIW I am recirculating my HLT full open with a riptide. It sort of whirlpools with the inlet from the top pointed down and to the side a bit. I haven't ruled it out, but I'm guessing it's not stratified.

i have my hlt inlet pointed down at about a 30 degree angle from horizontal, seems to swirl around fairly well. straight down or only angle slightly could be an issue. i haven't actually measured at different spots in the kettle while reciring but the 1-2 degree temp difference i see between mt and hlt makes me believe hlt stratification is not an issue in my setup.

 

[Gibberoni]

eight degrees difference? in the words of seinfeld's kramer, "that's kooky talk!" full disclosure, i do not have the actual spike system but i am using spike kettles/false bottom as well as an ebrew supply panel so it is essentially a spike system. same as augiedoggy, one degree, maybe two between mash and hlt. if running the hlt recirc full-throttle and even as low as 1/4 throttle on mash recirc, no way you should see an eight degree difference. i suppose if you only heated the mash water to mash temp and then dumped in the grain with only a trickle of recirc, then sure, mash temp would drop due to the cold grain and never really recover with the slow recirc flow but that is improper use of the system.

100%. When I am using this system, even though I still have to find my efficiency issue, my HLT and MLT temps are usually 1 maybe 2 degrees off. Of course when stepping, they will be drastically different, but within 15 minutes they will level out. Doesnt matter when I run full out on the recir, or my last brew where I slowed down to a crawl. Always 1-2 degrees off MAX.

i pulled up the process manual for the spike system and noticed they call for filling the mt with cold water, recircing through the coil to bring up to temp. that seems like it would take a while, i've always just heated everything in the hlt and then fill the mt with hot water from the hlt. water wil heat faster in the hlt with direct contact with the heating element, compared to indirect exchange heating through the coil. but maybe it isn't that much of a time difference? i've never tried it spike's way, just noticed it.

I currently follow this process. I throw the strike water into the MLT and start to recir and heat to the strike temp while I add the brewing salts/minerals to get the profile that I want. It takes about 16 gallons of water just to cover my HERMS coil, so unless I am striking with less than 4 gallons, I really cant follow your method. I would end up having to add cold water to the HLT to get back above the coil. Maybe it will take less time, maybe worth a shot.

 

[itsnotrequired]

I currently follow this process. I throw the strike water into the MLT and start to recir and heat to the strike temp while I add the brewing salts/minerals to get the profile that I want. It takes about 16 gallons of water just to cover my HERMS coil, so unless I am striking with less than 4 gallons, I really cant follow your method. I would end up having to add cold water to the HLT to get back above the coil. Maybe it will take less time, maybe worth a shot.

my coil sits a bit lower in the hlt, maybe at 13-14 gal. i use an ro/di system for water so if brewing a bigger beer, i just run a bit more into a clean pail. after transferring to mt, i top off the hlt with the xtra water, just enough to cover the coil. i usually wait a few minutes into the mash, just to see how close i got on mash temp. hlt comes back to temp very quickly.

 

[Gibberoni]

So my wife and I wanted to do a gose, so we started a brew on Wednesday to allow it to kettle sour until tomorrow. I really wanted to make sure that I got every ounce of efficiency that I could based on everyone suggestions so I took my time and made sure that I did everything I could.

1) I recirculated the mash as slowly as I possibly could with my setup
2) I added a locline semi circle to allow the mash to recirc around the mash, rather than though the silicone hose into 1 spot.
3) I stirred the mash every 15 minutes

Even with doing all of these things, I missed my OG by 8 points... 1.030 instead of 1.038. I checked my system in beersmith to make sure I didn't accidentally set my BH efficiency way to high, but it is set at 72% I was always easily able to hit at least 72% with my previous gas setup.

The last thing now is to crush the grain myself I guess.

On a side note, I finally took the time to compare the digital readout of the temperatures against my thermapens (used two to make sure the results were the same), and ALL THREE of my temp probes are reading 2*F under the actual temp. 2* can make a big difference in the mash so I will be adjusting my PIDs before my next brew.

 

[itsnotrequired]

So my wife and I wanted to do a gose, so we started a brew on Wednesday to allow it to kettle sour until tomorrow. I really wanted to make sure that I got every ounce of efficiency that I could based on everyone suggestions so I took my time and made sure that I did everything I could.

1) I recirculated the mash as slowly as I possibly could with my setup
2) I added a locline semi circle to allow the mash to recirc around the mash, rather than though the silicone hose into 1 spot.
3) I stirred the mash every 15 minutes

Even with doing all of these things, I missed my OG by 8 points... 1.030 instead of 1.038. I checked my system in beersmith to make sure I didn't accidentally set my BH efficiency way to high, but it is set at 72% I was always easily able to hit at least 72% with my previous gas setup.

The last thing now is to crush the grain myself I guess.

On a side note, I finally took the time to compare the digital readout of the temperatures against my thermapens (used two to make sure the results were the same), and ALL THREE of my temp probes are reading 2*F under the actual temp. 2* can make a big difference in the mash so I will be adjusting my PIDs before my next brew.

glad to hear you got the temp issue figured out, one less thing to worry about.

not sure what your gas setup was but i assume you adjusted all the equipment profiles, hose volumes, dead space volumes, etc. in beersmith, for the switch to electric?

 

[Gibberoni]

not sure what your gas setup was but i assume you adjusted all the equipment profiles, hose volumes, dead space volumes, etc. in beersmith, for the switch to electric?

Correct, I set up a completely new profile in Beersmith for the spike system. I assumed a BH efficiency of 72% based on my old system so I kept that there. I really dont want to start adjusting that down because something in my process is broken.

I will be brewing again on my old system with a buddy on saturday. I am curious to see what he will get using my old set up. If it is > the 60% that I am getting I will be a bit ticked... but it will be a good experiment though.

Similar recipes, same LHBS, same crush, same water, the only real difference is the setup.

 

[Bohern]

I too have joined you guys in having this system.

I ordered a 20BK, 15MLT and 15HLT with the brew kettle have some custom work done by adding a 1.5" TC port at the top for BrunDogs Kettle Condenser.

I also ordered the 50A panel from Electric Brewing Supply for being to do back to back batches as well as helping to get the cleaning process going early. Ryan was a real big help with my electric questions.

I hope to get ship notifications sometime next week, but for now I am going to hang out here and live vicariously through you all in a way. haha.

Lots of great info in here as well.

Cheers mates!

 

[Gibberoni]

They shipped my 20gal 30A system next day! Hopefully you get yours soon!

 

[Bohern]

Thanks man, I have had about 3 things done custom and made a late change today. So I am guessing middle of next week. But still very anxious.

 

[Bohern]

Having read through this thread has anybody done the below? I found this on the Spike site und FAQ while just poking around.

Rinsing the most sugars on Spike

"One pro tip is to attach a silicone hose to a side dip tube and run it around the mash bed. This will help keep an even mash bed with out a lot of peaks and valleys that can cause channeling and low efficiency."

 

[CodeSection]

Having read through this thread has anybody done the below? I found this on the Spike site und FAQ while just poking around.

Rinsing the most sugars on Spike

"One pro tip is to attach a silicone hose to a side dip tube and run it around the mash bed. This will help keep an even mash bed with out a lot of peaks and valleys that can cause channeling and low efficiency."

Are they describing a set up similar to Blichmann's Sparge Arm with its silicone hose?

https://www.blichmannengineering.com/autosparge.html

 

[Bohern]

That is what it sounds like to me, first thing that came to mind actually.