Simple Pale Ale - bland results

[safcraft]

Hi there,

I recently decided to make an experiment with different Hops.
Main goal was to make the same beer, with different Hops, so i could better identify how each hop tastes like !

So i made a simple Pale Ale:

- 93% Pale Malt
- 5% CaraPils
- 2% Acid Malt

Mash was 90min at 68ºC.

I throwed in 20g of Magnum Hops in the boil at 30min , so i could get the base bitterness.

Fermented at 17ºC with Safale S-04 for 10 days.
Dropped from 1.054 to 1.014.

Then...divided the batch in 2L mini-kegs and dry-hoped with different ones. All mini-kegs received 4g of hops in a bag (this is 2L per keg):

- Nugget
- Saaz
- Tradition
- Polaris
- Cascade
- Citra
- East Kent Golding
- Cluster

After 1 week of dry-hoping i crash cold a keg and pressurize it.
I am tasting the "Nugget"...and finding this is BLAHHH....

It does not taste infected or oxidized or anything like that.
It just does not taste like a tasty brew. I can feel the malt backbone but the hop is not pleasant.

Sure i know Nugget is not known for Aroma on its own....but i find it disapointing. I also tasted the "East Kent Golding" version...and although its a different smell....taste is very similar BLAHHHH.

I mean...i think i could not drink a hole 33cl bottle of this.
It is like tasting food without salt !

What do you guys think ?

 

[Sadu]

EKG is normally used in conjunction with a tasty malt bill and a yeast with a bit of flavour. The hops play a supporting role and in that context it works fine. I tried a smash beer with EKG and it was OK, but I'd choose American hops every time for a hop forward beer. Just my 2c.

 

[safcraft]

So the Citra and Cascade versions should taste good ?
I will try and pressurize those and check.

 

[day_trippr]

What do you guys think ?

With zero late hop additions, the result does not surprise me...

 

[safcraft]

With zero late hop additions, the result does not surprise me...

I did something that emulates late hop additions.
When transfering to secondary i made a HOP tea (60min from 80ºC until room temp) and added to the brew. This was the 1st "dry hop". Then a few days later i decided to dry hop in a bag with more hops, because the flavor was very subdued....

Still....brew is bland...

 

[Sadu]

So the Citra and Cascade versions should taste good ?
I will try and pressurize those and check.

Yeah, I think if you can't get a Citra or Cascade SMaSH to taste good then there's something else wrong.

I have no experience with hop tea compared with a combo of late boil hops plus dry-hopping. But Cascade is my reliable go-to when I want cheap tasty hoppy beers, I don't think you can go wrong so long as you use enough of it.

 

[Hanglow]

Goldings have been used in beers for a couple of hundred years for good reason Maybe you have an oxidation problem or the technique doesn't work well with them

 

[MSK_Chess]

We cannot use European hops the same way one does American hops and expect similar results. European beers are malt forward, hops are only there for bitterness and a little herbal taste and aroma.

 

[safcraft]

We cannot use European hops the same way one does American hops and expect similar results. European beers are malt forward, hops are only there for bitterness and a little herbal taste and aroma.

Makes sense.
The whole point of the experiment was to point out different flavors of the different hops. I am waiting for the Cascade and Citra versions to have at least 5 days of dry hopping in them, so i can pressurize and taste them.

As you said, if those do not taste good....maybe there is something wrong with the brew itself.

With the Tradition, EKG and Saaz versions .....we will see what they offer.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

That doesn't look like a very interesting grain bill either. I'm not a fan of overcomplicated grain bills, but you took the blandest base malt available, added carapils, which doesn't contribute any flavor whatsoever (and many of us question the conventional wisdom that it adds body and head retention), and then added a tiny amount of acid malt which at best isn't enough to affect flavor, and at worst, if it's the only pH adjustment, isn't enough to get you in the right pH range for a pale beer and will leave you with a flat, flabby beer.

Not trying to insult you, but you are complaining that the beer is bland but you couldn't build a bland-er grain bill if you tried. The hops are irrelevant unless you use a ton of them.

Even if you don't add any caramalts (carapils is not a caramalt), add some vienna or at least some Maris Otter or something more interesting than US 2-row pale.

 

[z-bob]

Try using Munich instead of CaraPils.

I've been brewing European malty ales lately, using Mt Hood hops, and not all that hoppy. I like them a lot more than I expected. Now starting to back-off on the malt and experiment with different hops (and probably ruin a good thing

 

[stylus1274]

That doesn't look like a very interesting grain bill either. I'm not a fan of overcomplicated grain bills, but you took the blandest base malt available, added carapils, which doesn't contribute any flavor whatsoever (and many of us question the conventional wisdom that it adds body and head retention), and then added a tiny amount of acid malt which at best isn't enough to affect flavor, and at worst, if it's the only pH adjustment, isn't enough to get you in the right pH range for a pale beer and will leave you with a flat, flabby beer.

Not trying to insult you, but you are complaining that the beer is bland but you couldn't build a bland-er grain bill if you tried. The hops are irrelevant unless you use a ton of them.

Even if you don't add any caramalts (carapils is not a caramalt), add some vienna or at least some Maris Otter or something more interesting than US 2-row pale.

^^^This.

I think you have bigger factors here other than dry hoping and not getting the flavors you want as Cavpilot pointed out.

Even adding just a pound of 40L along with some simple flavor hop additions would have played a huge role in your beer.

For what it's worth not a fan of hop tea. You will never sell me on that technique

 

[tooldudetool]

Have you had your water tested? Do you know what your mineral levels are? Adding acid malt without knowing your water profile can do unexpected things to the final beer, it's possible your pH is far off from where it should be. Seeing as you're trying to taste hop flavors I would want to use a pale ale water profile and make sure you have adequate sulfate to make the hops "pop". Often times boring, flabby beers are the result of improper mash pH and lack of proper water minerals. Also, use more dry hops next time! Cheers

 

[65C]

20g magnum at 30 mins is approx 5X less bitter than my base (50g of 10-12% at 60 mins)

and 4g per 2L is on the low side aroma side (for me) - I use double in my single hop for aroma on top of the bittering - that balance you have has worked for me but as a subtle flavour to an interesting malt

(I'm a real beginner on this so take anything I say as guidance)

 

[JordanKnudson]

It seems to me that the point of this experiment was to test out the various hop varieties, sort of like what we're trying to do with the malt and hops in a SMaSH, in which case a "bland" malt bill is not a bad idea (fewer competing flavors to interfere with the perception of the hop characteristics).

I think the technique was what got in the way. Hop tea (yuck) isn't a good substitute, IMO, for boil/whirlpool additions. The dry hop will add some discernible aroma and hopefully a bit of taste, but there's a reason that dry hops are used in conjunction with hot-side additions in hop-forward beers. We want as much dimension in our hop profile as we can get, and only relying on one downstream technique is not the way to do that.

I realize that the reason for keeping the recipe neutral in the kettle was so that you could make a single batch and dry hop it separately with lots of different varieties, but unfortunately, I doubt it's going to yield quite the results that you were hoping for. Still, hopefully a strong hop like citra will at least get you a beer that you like to drink.

 

[safcraft]

It seems to me that the point of this experiment was to test out the various hop varieties, sort of like what we're trying to do with the malt and hops in a SMaSH, in which case a "bland" malt bill is not a bad idea (fewer competing flavors to interfere with the perception of the hop characteristics).

I think the technique was what got in the way. Hop tea (yuck) isn't a good substitute, IMO, for boil/whirlpool additions. The dry hop will add some discernible aroma and hopefully a bit of taste, but there's a reason that dry hops are used in conjunction with hot-side additions in hop-forward beers. We want as much dimension in our hop profile as we can get, and only relying on one downstream technique is not the way to do that.

I realize that the reason for keeping the recipe neutral in the kettle was so that you could make a single batch and dry hop it separately with lots of different varieties, but unfortunately, I doubt it's going to yield quite the results that you were hoping for. Still, hopefully a strong hop like citra will at least get you a beer that you like to drink.

This is spot on what was tried to achieve. I believe all experience teaches something new and is anything this has showed me that dry hop alone does not make a good beer.

The simple grain bill was exactly for not contribute in taste and not get in the way of hops. My mash water is spot on by the way, I know my water chemistry and use BRUN water spreadsheet for calculations, the acid malt was EXACTLY what was needed for mash PH contrary to what was suggested. My water is extremely soft so any small contribution of acid and gypsum is normally enough.

I tasted the citra version. Still not enough. In order to try and save the beer I removed all bag hops and placed double the CITRA in all kegs.... 7g each.

Thank you all for your contributions. this forum rocks

 

[safcraft]

For the record, this was the Mash Profile for the Hop Experiment Beer :

 

[madscientist451]

I believe all experience teaches something new and is anything this has showed me that dry hop alone does not make a good beer.

This was what I was going to say, you've already figured it out.

 

[BowAholic]

I tasted the citra version. Still not enough. In order to try and save the beer I removed all bag hops and placed double the CITRA in all kegs.... 7g each.

-good move... that was going to be my suggestion... I hope it works... Citra is yummy...

 

[safcraft]

In a side note on "rescue techniques", does anyone ever tried to take 2L of finished beer, boil it again with hops, cool it down..and add them to the finished beer again ?

Will this destroy or fix the beer ?

 

[Cavpilot2000]

This is spot on what was tried to achieve. I believe all experience teaches something new and is anything this has showed me that dry hop alone does not make a good beer.

The simple grain bill was exactly for not contribute in taste and not get in the way of hops.

Ah. Sorry then. I apparently misread and thought you were wondering why your beer turned out bland.

 

[stylus1274]

Ah. Sorry then. I apparently misread and thought you were wondering why your beer turned out bland.

I understand what you are saying here. Trying to focus on the hops with little interference.

But don't you want to do the opposite? I mean if you like a hop profile don't you want to see how it interacts/tastes with a 'proper' grain bill?

Would that not give you a true definition of the hop profile?

Great, you like citra hops. So now you will make another batch but use different grains. What if you don't like the pairing?

Just saying I disagree with this thought. If you are doing this then why even bother with carapils or acid malt?

 

[safcraft]

But don't you want to do the opposite? I mean if you like a hop profile don't you want to see how it interacts/tastes with a 'proper' grain bill?

Would that not give you a true definition of the hop profile?

Let me know how you do multiple grain bill mashes in 1 brewday.
I made my mash simple so i could later on split into 8 different beers, with different hops.

Great, you like citra hops. So now you will make another batch but use different grains. What if you don't like the pairing?

Just saying I disagree with this thought. If you are doing this then why even bother with carapils or acid malt?

Acid malt was there only for PH adjustment. Carapils was there to "at best" improve head retention (and at worse do NOTHING).

Many (if not all) true Pilsners are made of 100% Pilsner malt. Are they making them badly all these years?
By the way, i did not use the blandest of the malts available. I used German Pale Malt, which is a touch above Pilsner Malt (the blandest).

But hey...i learned something from this experience and decided to share!
Did you know these facts you are claiming because you made similar experiments....or just because assumption is being used ?

Another thing i learned : i hate Polaris Hop !

 

[applescrap]

Hi there,

I recently decided to make an experiment with different Hops.
Main goal was to make the same beer, with different Hops, so i could better identify how each hop tastes like !

So i made a simple Pale Ale:

- 93% Pale Malt
- 5% CaraPils
- 2% Acid Malt

Mash was 90min at 68ºC.

I throwed in 20g of Magnum Hops in the boil at 30min , so i could get the base bitterness.

Fermented at 17ºC with Safale S-04 for 10 days.
Dropped from 1.054 to 1.014.

Then...divided the batch in 2L mini-kegs and dry-hoped with different ones. All mini-kegs received 4g of hops in a bag (this is 2L per keg):

- Nugget
- Saaz
- Tradition
- Polaris
- Cascade
- Citra
- East Kent Golding
- Cluster

After 1 week of dry-hoping i crash cold a keg and pressurize it.
I am tasting the "Nugget"...and finding this is BLAHHH....

It does not taste infected or oxidized or anything like that.
It just does not taste like a tasty brew. I can feel the malt backbone but the hop is not pleasant.

Sure i know Nugget is not known for Aroma on its own....but i find it disapointing. I also tasted the "East Kent Golding" version...and although its a different smell....taste is very similar BLAHHHH.

I mean...i think i could not drink a hole 33cl bottle of this.
It is like tasting food without salt !

What do you guys think ?

Here is the answer imo...

What you put in the beer is what you got out. You took basically one grain, threw a small bittering charge in and then dry hopped it at a rate of 1 oz per 5 gallons. So add that up and you basically have somewhere near 1.6 oz of hops and 10 lb of malt in a 5g batch. Clearly you knew this wouldn't come out tasting like a neipa.

Sounds like the beer tastes exactly like it should. 10 lb pilsner and a very small amount of hops. I make beers like this because I want to add something to it. Maybe pumpkin for example or fruit in the secondary or Fruit Loops. These beers you made are wonderful blank canvases that are ready to become something else. I suspect some will have more flavor than others based on the Hop quality and type. Here is yoopers house pale, note over 3x the hops, this is what you are looking for. Try scaling this recipe down and doing the same thing. Because I agree what you tried is a great way to taste different hops. Maybe do the same recipe, but do 3x the hops? 14 g per 2L batch dry hopped, if you want to really taste the hop. Also, I dry hop for only 3 days.

Edit...i dont think you want to reboil, never heard of that. Adding more hops was a good idea. Maybe throw some rasberries and raspberry extract in one of the really bland ones. Or make a tincture of your favorite herb and add that to taste. Apricot? Blueberry? Lavender? Best of luck.

 

[applescrap]

Here it is.

View attachment 1499789498581.jpg

 

[stylus1274]

Did you know these facts you are claiming because you made similar experiments....or just because assumption is being used ?

I was stating my opinion. I wasn't claiming it to be fact. That's what this forum is for right?