Simple: Imperial Stout

[yard_bird]

I'm new to brewing this style, though do have experience brewing higher gravity beers (wee heavy, barley wine, quad). I think RIS is an appropriate next challenge for me since it takes some coordinating the malt//roast/residual sweetness/hops/alcohol in a way I'm new to. While the recipe in Brewing Classic Styles looks good, ideally I can keep this recipe simple so I can order my grain online with no leftovers, though I'm willing to kill a day driving to and from the HBS if it makes a big difference. Again, being new to brewing this style, I'm looking for advice. Thinking something like:

77% Maris Otter
15% Brown malt
8% Black patent

65 IBU English hops

Nottingham

Shooting for an OG ~1.100. When I've used Notty in the past on a 1.080 beer I got about 80% AA. Assuming similar performance, this recipe could go 1.100-1.020 Obviously mash temp would come into play, thinking about probably 154F for this beer.

Lastly, I've seen some recipes use Candi sugar to coax out some dark fruit flavors with this style. In keeping with my KISS method, if I were to use this, I'd use a whole pound and scale my final volume accordingly:

72% M/O
14% Brown
7% Black patent
7% D-180 or D-90

Thanks all, any feedback is appreciated.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Lastly, I've seen some recipes use Candi sugar to coax out some dark fruit flavors with this style. In keeping with my KISS method,

I'm not sure why they're using candi. The historical beers they're referencing used invert. There are very simple methods to make your own invert. If you're planning on skipping the historical brett, you're definitely going to want to use sugar of some kind to help bring the FG down.

I've made a 1914 Courage IS off Pattinson's site with Notty. Very tasty at 2.5 years.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/1914-courage-imperial-stout-which-one.693027/

 

[DBhomebrew]

Assuming similar performance, this recipe could go 1.100-1.020 Obviously mash temp would come into play, thinking about probably 154F for this beer.

With my imperial stout above it went from 1100 to 1030. That was with 9.5% invert and a 152° mash. A very long lauter extended the mash time quite a bit.

TL/DR: 1020 isn't likely without sugar and brett.

 

[sibelman]

72% M/O
14% Brown
7% Black patent
7% D-180 or D-90

This should be fine. You might consider adding roasted barley in place of some of the other dark malts.

 

[yard_bird]

I'm not sure why they're using candi. The historical beers they're referencing used invert. There are very simple methods to make your own invert. If you're planning on skipping the historical brett, you're definitely going to want to use sugar of some kind to help bring the FG down.

I've made a 1914 Courage IS off Pattinson's site with Notty. Very tasty at 2.5 years.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/1914-courage-imperial-stout-which-one.693027/

Sounds good, thanks. Down the invert sugar rabbit hole.

 

[MaxStout]

Here's a good primer on making your own invert.

 

[hottpeper13]

If you're ordering grain,Special B has dark fruit and plum flavors. You could leave out the sugar and mash lower, and save the sugar for a quad. I would split the brown malt percentage 50/50 with chocolate malt ,but that's what I like.

 

[yard_bird]

Thanks all. I have two questions that I think I know the answer to, but want to confirm.

1) I don’t see any data on how fermentable invert sugar is, but if it’s taking a disaccharide and cutting into monosaccharides can I assume it’s as least as fermentable as the original sugar?

2) MoreBeer has a recipe that uses lactic acid in lieu of citric acid. I have lactic on hand for water adjustments so it would be nice to use this instead of buying citric. Anyone have experience with using lactic acid for invert?

Thanks all for the help, really appreciate it!

 

[MaxStout]

Thanks all. I have two questions that I think I know the answer to, but want to confirm.

1) I don’t see any data on how fermentable invert sugar is, but if it’s taking a disaccharide and cutting into monosaccharides can I assume it’s as least as fermentable as the original sugar?

2) MoreBeer has a recipe that uses lactic acid in lieu of citric acid. I have lactic on hand for water adjustments so it would be nice to use this instead of buying citric. Anyone have experience with using lactic acid for invert?

Thanks all for the help, really appreciate it!

1. Invert is fully fermentable.
2. Lactic acid should work, though I've never used it for invert. Any mild acid will act as the catalyst. Cream of tartar also works.

 

[yard_bird]

1. Invert is fully fermentable.
2. Lactic acid should work, though I've never used it for invert. Any mild acid will act as the catalyst. Cream of tartar also works.

Thanks a bunch MaxStout! I’ll try to remember to post a picture of the final beer in 6-12months!

 

[kevin58]

I use the same citric acid that I use for canning tomatoes. Easily found with home canning supplies. If you make your own invert may I suggest you make a lot of it. It takes just as much time to take 5 lbs as it does one. 1 pound of invert fits neatly into a pint jar and they keep indefinitely. I make 5 lbs at a time, pour them into pint jars and just tuck them away until I need them. And since I make a lot of English styles that use it they don't sit around very long.

 

[Miraculix]

Easy invert on the side during the boil:

Use good quality and not fully refined sugar. You might want to add completely unrefined sugar to taste, to get a darker invert.

In the oversized pot the sugar goes, water being added together with a dash of lemon juice or the acid of your choice. Heat it all up till dissolved, keep simmering for about half an hour, keep adding water if it gets too thick (CAREFULL!!).

When done, add some baking soda to neutralise the acid while still being hot. BE EVEN MORE CAREFUL THAN BEFORE, THIS WILL FOAM AND THE FOAM IS EXTREMELY HOT!!! Continue simmering for a few minutes.

Dip a tablespoon in, let it cool, try the syrup. Taste the barking soda? Add a bit more acid. Taste the acid? Add a bit more baking soda. Continue till you taste neither or.

Or do fancy math up front and weigh everything.

 

[Bobby_M]

With my imperial stout above it went from 1100 to 1030. That was with 9.5% invert and a 152° mash. A very long lauter extended the mash time quite a bit.

TL/DR: 1020 isn't likely without sugar and brett.

My RIS last week just went 1.101 to 1.019 in 4 days with a very healthy pitch of Chico (fermented at 67F). 4 liter starter into 8 gallons of wort. Mash temp was 149@45m and 158@30min. No sugar. Dosed with oxygen at yeast pitch and once more at 24 hours.

 

[DBhomebrew]

My RIS last week just went 1.101 to 1.019 in 4 days with a very healthy pitch of Chico (fermented at 67F). 4 liter starter into 8 gallons of wort. Mash temp was 149@45m and 158@30min. No sugar. Dosed with oxygen at yeast pitch and once more at 24 hours.

View attachment 838539

YMMV, eh?

What's the difference between your post-boil and original gravities?

 

[gunhaus]

You could always brew a simple Bitter or Mild first, then dump your RIS directly on the yeast cake. I have never failed to get a very vigorous ferment this way. Admittedly most of my RIS experience has been with brews of 1.090 ish, and a finish in the mid to low 1.020's has been the rule for me, with and without sugar. But I have only done this a couple dozen times over the last few decades, so I a just a piker in this arena. I defer to the elders! ( I think I have done versions of that 1914 Courage mentioned above more than others the past few years)

 

[Bobby_M]

YMMV, eh?

What's the difference between your post-boil and original gravities?

Missed my target and added DME to the boil. I never updated the fermentables list.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm new to brewing this style, though do have experience brewing higher gravity beers (wee heavy, barley wine, quad). I think RIS is an appropriate next challenge for me since it takes some coordinating the malt//roast/residual sweetness/hops/alcohol in a way I'm new to. While the recipe in Brewing Classic Styles looks good, ideally I can keep this recipe simple so I can order my grain online with no leftovers, though I'm willing to kill a day driving to and from the HBS if it makes a big difference. Again, being new to brewing this style, I'm looking for advice. Thinking something like:

77% Maris Otter
15% Brown malt
8% Black patent

65 IBU English hops

Nottingham

Shooting for an OG ~1.100. When I've used Notty in the past on a 1.080 beer I got about 80% AA. Assuming similar performance, this recipe could go 1.100-1.020 Obviously mash temp would come into play, thinking about probably 154F for this beer.

Lastly, I've seen some recipes use Candi sugar to coax out some dark fruit flavors with this style. In keeping with my KISS method, if I were to use this, I'd use a whole pound and scale my final volume accordingly:

72% M/O
14% Brown
7% Black patent
7% D-180 or D-90

Thanks all, any feedback is appreciated.

Just make sure you account for a notably lower efficiency with such high targets. Assume 10% less than you normally get. I have a 1.101 OG going right now and it took oxygen, a huge yeast pitch, and a 149F mash temp to get to 1.019. Use a pitch rate calculator and make sure you use enough packs. One is absolutely not enough.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I use the same citric acid that I use for canning tomatoes. Easily found with home canning supplies. If you make your own invert may I suggest you make a lot of it. It takes just as much time to take 5 lbs as it does one. 1 pound of invert fits neatly into a pint jar and they keep indefinitely. I make 5 lbs at a time, pour them into pint jars and just tuck them away until I need them. And since I make a lot of English styles that use it they don't sit around very long.

+1. I make 4 lbs at a time and even then, I'd love to double or triple it. Like you said, as much time and trouble to make a little or a bunch, and I find I go through a lot of it now, having learned more.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Just make sure you account for a notably lower efficiency with such high targets. Assume 10% less than you normally get. I have a 1.101 OG going right now and it took oxygen, a huge yeast pitch, and a 149F mash temp to get to 1.019. Use a pitch rate calculator and make sure you use enough packs. One is absolutely not enough.

Sort of a side question, but using BS3 now. Bobby or anyone, I can sort of MacGyver it by changing the brewhouse efficiency, but I'd rather drop the mash efficiency - but just for beers like this (my brewhouse is about 72%, my mash is about 80%. I'd drop the mash efficiency down - probably do as you indicate Bobby, to 70% mash efficiency). Is there a way to adjust the mash efficiency for a single batch, not a global "system" setting?

 

[Bobby_M]

Sort of a side question, but using BS3 now. Bobby or anyone, I can sort of MacGyver it by changing the brewhouse efficiency, but I'd rather drop the mash efficiency - but just for beers like this (my brewhouse is about 72%, my mash is about 80%. I'd drop the mash efficiency down - probably do as you indicate Bobby, to 70% mash efficiency). Is there a way to adjust the mash efficiency for a single batch, not a global "system" setting?

The easiest way to do this is to go into equipment profiles, find yours and duplicate it. Modify that copy to lower the efficiency and just name it "high gravity".

 

[Gadjobrinus]

The easiest way to do this is to go into equipment profiles, find yours and duplicate it. Modify that copy to lower the efficiency and just name it "high gravity".

Oh, I see. Just use that profile for these recipes. Thanks.

Oh, sorry, just did that, but I'm not seeing a way to adjust mash efficiency in the new equipment profile, only brewhouse efficiency. Am I just missing it? I could adjust the BH efficiency, but would prefer to adjust the mash efficiency since this is about extract and not brewery losses.

 

[yard_bird]

With my imperial stout above it went from 1100 to 1030. That was with 9.5% invert and a 152° mash. A very long lauter extended the mash time quite a bit.

TL/DR: 1020 isn't likely without sugar and brett.

Do you remember how many packets of Nottingham you pitched? This calculator estimates I'll need about 5 sachets for 3.5gal of 1.100.

 

[DBhomebrew]

I do not. These days, I'd do as suggested above.

You could always brew a simple Bitter or Mild first, then dump your RIS directly on the yeast cake. I have never failed to get a very vigorous ferment this way.

Yum, mild. Or a simple Irish Dry Stout. The best starter is a drinkable one.

 

[yard_bird]

I do not. These days, I'd do as suggested above.



Yum, mild. Or a simple Irish Dry Stout. The best starter is a drinkable one.

You rule, and good drinkable starter advice

 

[hottpeper13]

there's more then 1 benefit for making a small beer first. I'm concentrating on making the best possible yeast cake for the big beer and that always results in a fantastic tasting starter beer.

 

[Miraculix]

I do not. These days, I'd do as suggested above.



Yum, mild. Or a simple Irish Dry Stout. The best starter is a drinkable one.

Couldn't agree more!

My last strong ale was thrown on a bitter's yeast cake. Both beers came out really well!

 

[sibelman]

strong ale was thrown on a bitter's yeast

I'm gonna have to try this. It saves money on yeast and time cleaning out the fermenter. Plus, it should improve the second, stronger beer. My next pale/IPA will be followed by something imperial!

 

[BongoYodeler]

I'm gonna have to try this. It saves money on yeast and time cleaning out the fermenter. Plus, it should improve the second, stronger beer. My next pale/IPA will be followed by something imperial!

I've never tried it either, but maybe I should since I'm planning an imperial stout in a few weeks. I was going to use Imperial Darkness but my LHBS seems to have dropped the Imperial line. Since I'd rather not order liquid yeast online I may switch to US-05 for my stout. I also use US-05 for my Amber Ale, which I'm also thinking of brewing. I wonder if the yeast cake from that one would work on the stout?

 

[Miraculix]

I'm gonna have to try this. It saves money on yeast and time cleaning out the fermenter. Plus, it should improve the second, stronger beer. My next pale/IPA will be followed by something imperial!

Good idea! I have the slight suspicion that the yeast generations that were not previously dried have also superior fermentation abilities. Enhanced ester production and better flocculation in the case of UK yeasts. And by throwing the beer on an already established yeast cake, the majority of the yeast should be second generation or later.


... Doesn't apply when starting the process with liquid yeast though....

 

[Miraculix]

I've never tried it either, but maybe I should since I'm planning an imperial stout in a few weeks. I was going to use Imperial Darkness but my LHBS seems to have dropped the Imperial line. Since I'd rather not order liquid yeast online I may switch to US-05 for my stout. I also use US-05 for my Amber Ale, which I'm also thinking of brewing. I wonder if the yeast cake from that one would work on the stout?

It surely would. I'd recommend s04 though, as that is my personal dry dark beer favourite. Should also work very well in your amber.

 

[sibelman]

Doesn't apply when starting the process with liquid yeast though

Maybe you can say more about re-use of yeast that was dry vs liquid. I have been using Imperial (liquid) for the most part.

 

[Miraculix]

Maybe you can say more about re-use of yeast that was dry vs liquid. I have been using Imperial (liquid) for the most part.

Dry seems to improve with later generations, liquid doesn't. Not much more to say about it. I'm going to try in the future to start a stepped starter with a small amount of dry yeast to see if that makes a difference compared to just throwing in the whole pack into the wort instead.

 

[sibelman]

Dry seems to improve with later generations, liquid doesn't. Not much more to say about it.

Curious.

Lately, people's preference for liquid yeasts seems to have faded somewhat as the available variety of dry yeasts has grown.

I've been too lazy or focused on other things to pursue split batches for comparison's sake. I'm grateful for the benefit of others' experience, such as yours, @Miraculix.

I sometimes enjoy estery British styles (Imperial Pub!) but, given my general preference for clean yeast, I'd probably choose a dry 'Chico' such as US-05 for my first re-use attempt.

 

[BongoYodeler]

It surely would. I'd recommend s04 though, as that is my personal dry dark beer favourite. Should also work very well in your amber.

Thanks. I see on the Fermentus website S04 "Produces balanced fruity and floral notes." Since I really like the neutral profile that US-05 brings to my amber ale, plus I'm not looking for fruity or floral notes in my imperial stout, I would question whether it's the right yeast in this situation. To be fair though I've never used S04, so I can't speak from experience.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Without a ton of experience with other yeasts in big dark ales, I do enjoy my Notty RIS and a few batches of strong Scotch a la Traquair.

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks. I see on the Fermentus website S04 "Produces balanced fruity and floral notes." Since I really like the neutral profile that US-05 brings to my amber ale, plus I'm not looking for fruity or floral notes in my imperial stout, I would question whether it's the right yeast in this situation. To be fair though I've never used S04, so I can't speak from experience.

That's marketing blabla if you ask me. It's fairly clean and floccs really well. It doesn't attenuate as extreme as 05 does and it's not quite as neutral. But that's exactly what I like it for in a dark beer.

I've never experienced something that resembles even a hint of floral notes from it though....

 

[Miraculix]

Without a ton of experience with other yeasts in big dark ales, I do enjoy my Notty RIS and a few batches of strong Scotch a la Traquair.

Can't go wrong with Notti! Probably my most used yeast at the moment. I just like 04 a tad bit better for dark beers. But Notti would also be an excellent choice.

 

[sibelman]

In my case, it's likely the second, stronger beer will be a DIPA. Maybe US-04 would be an interesting variation.

 

[yard_bird]

If anyone is interested, this is how brew day went. I'll try to remember to post bottling and (hopefully) some tasting notes when this gets completed.
10# Maris Otter
2# Brown malt
1# Black malt
1# No. 3 Invert at 15 minutes
1# D-180 sugar added around day 4

Mashed at 150 for 1 hour.

70 IBU of Magnum at 60 minutes
20 IBU of Cluster and yeast nutrient at 15 minutes

3.6gallons of 1.110 went into the fermenter. Adding the D-180 around day 4 should add another 0.008.

Pitched 3 packs of Nottingham at 58F. 60 sec of O2. Fermentation about 18 hours later, fermenter set to 62F. Will probably end up ramping this to 65 or 68 towards the end of fermentation. Thanks all for your contributions!

 

[hungupdown]

If anyone is interested, this is how brew day went. I'll try to remember to post bottling and (hopefully) some tasting notes when this gets completed.
10# Maris Otter
2# Brown malt
1# Black malt
1# No. 3 Invert at 15 minutes
1# D-180 sugar added around day 4

Mashed at 150 for 1 hour.

70 IBU of Magnum at 60 minutes
20 IBU of Cluster and yeast nutrient at 15 minutes

3.6gallons of 1.110 went into the fermenter. Adding the D-180 around day 4 should add another 0.008.

Pitched 3 packs of Nottingham at 58F. 60 sec of O2. Fermentation about 18 hours later, fermenter set to 62F. Will probably end up ramping this to 65 or 68 towards the end of fermentation. Thanks all for your contributions!

Would be interested to hear how it goes direct from yeast packs.
I started a RIS with Nottingham 2 weeks ago, using Notti cake from small beer started 5 days earlier. Was 20L partial mash; OG 1.128 inc 3l LME; + 1.1kg total dextrose additions so far, giving corrected OG 1.149; currently at SG 1.022.