should i add my dark grains at mash out

[brewbama]

So… **Brewing Better Beer** and **Modern Homebrew Recipes** containing numerous award winning recipes doesn’t appeal to authority? Cool.

Here’s another appeal to authority: **Brewing Classic Styles** was also written by a 2x Ninkasi award winner, describing 80 award winning recipes, where only base malts are mashed, …and steeping grains are used throughout. Granted the recipes are written for extract but IMO all the brewer is doing in the mash is creating extract anyway. Especially since each recipe includes an all grain replacement for the extract near the end.

…and there are comments at the end of each of the paragraphs dedicated to the subject on pg 14 of BCS when speaking about caramel malts, kilned and roasted malts.

Ck it out for yourselves. Try both. …or not. Your call.

 

[Halfakneecap]

Ive heard of Gorgon Strong, but am not too familiar ( down in Oz, so dont get out much ), so i just googled him. Pretty successful brewer and beer brewing Author. If his beer sucks, mine are terrible.

But i like them, so will keep doing what works for me, regardless of what chemistry says

 

[mac_1103]

will keep doing what works for me, regardless of what chemistry says

If it works for you, it's almost certainly because of what chemistry says.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

[...] calling him out [based on 2024 knowledge] regarding his brewing methods [published in 2011 / 2015]

seems a little harsh.

Wait. Let me check.

Yup. This is HomeBrewTalk.

Carry on.

 

[Bramling Cross]

seems a little harsh.

Wait. Let me check.

Yup. This is HomeBrewTalk.

Carry on.

It's not wrong, though. I really admire Gordon Strong and I made a point to express that in my post, but I think it's fair to point out that his methods do not result in good beer (perhaps good enough beer for me is a more accurate description). I've tried to make good beer with Gordon's methods and moved on because they aren't good. I've learned that pH really is important (despite what Brulosphy would have you believe) and it's important from the tun, into the kettle, and then into the fermenter. This is stuff that pro brewers consider, why shouldn't we? Or are Strong's methods magic?

 

[Halfakneecap]

Looks like quite a few people think the methods are good, and work.

If whats working for you works, great. But not everybody who does things different to you is doing it "wrong"

 

[Bramling Cross]

View attachment 863943
View attachment 863944

Looks like quite a few people think the methods are good, and work.

If whats working for you works, great. But not everybody who does things different to you is doing it "wrong"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

I put the work in, learning my chemistry, then tried his methods because they seemed so easy. His methods made significantly worse beer. You can try to leverage me off of that observation, but I put the work in and I know it's true.

 

[Miraculix]

It depends on what you're after. If you want something classic, like Köstritzer Schwarzbier, you don't want much roast at all. It's barely noticeable, but it's still pretty dark in colour.

My take on this would be to only use one roasted grain and pilsner malt. I see no benefit coming from multiple dark grains when the aim is a dark beer with very little roast and a dry finish.

My roasted grain of choice would be either carafa spezial 2 or, if you don't care about traditions but only are after the desired result, midnight wheat.

If you got your mash ph within the right range, you can throw it in at the beginning or at the end, doesn't make that much of a difference in my experience. That's because if you add it at the end, you will need to increase the amount to get the same colour. If you throw it in at the beginning, something like 5% roasted grains should get you into the right direction. If using midnight wheat, maybe add one or two percent more.

If you really want to minimise the roast, you could do a cold extraction over night and then add the extract at flame out into the boil. This is fun, but not necessary. Works great for a dark IPA though!

Bittering with Chinook will result in a tasty beer if you ask me, but it will be an American Schwarzbier as the Chinook flavour will come through. I'd emphasize this by adding a 10 minute addition, or switch to something neutral or nobel like magnum or ctz for the 60 minute addition. Perle also works great as a German hop replacement.

 

[sibelman]

if you're serious

enjoy the results of adding dark malts after the mash. Why would i change?

An eternal tension, eh?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

This is stuff that pro brewers consider, why shouldn't we? Or are Strong's methods magic?

No reply as I'm adding 'mash capping' dark grains to my growing list of things that I avoid talking about here at HomeBrewTalk.

 

[duelerx]

It's not wrong, though. I really admire Gordon Strong and I made a point to express that in my post, but I think it's fair to point out that his methods do not result in good beer (perhaps good enough beer for me is a more accurate description). I've tried to make good beer with Gordon's methods and moved on because they aren't good. I've learned that pH really is important (despite what Brulosphy would have you believe) and it's important from the tun, into the kettle, and then into the fermenter. This is stuff that pro brewers consider, why shouldn't we? Or are Strong's methods magic?

It works for Gordon and not you. Also the mashout method of steeping dark grains I believe is from Guinness not Gordon. I agree with Martin this technique depends on the recipe and what are your goals.

 

[stamandster]

I think we may have "jumped the shark" here with all the OT rants. OP just wanted to know if he should put dark grains at mash out (or close to it). Seems the consensus was yes, mostly for simplicity and to style for this particular category. And I think the OP did so? I'm sure once all is said and done he'll update us with his preference for this particular style and grain combination.

 

[brewbama]

Interesting that the technique is not supposed to produce enough roast flavors when my highest scores in competition are American Porter, English Porter, Baltic Porter, Irish Stout, etc…. For example, I used Curt Stock’s American Porter recipe (which was definitely not written using the techniques) and adapted it to the techniques learned in Brewing Better Beer and scored a 43 and two 42(s) in the three competitions I entered it in which included NHC First Round. Likewise, I’ve brewed every beer the same way for years and years regardless of the source recipe.

This ain’t the first time I’ve heard these arguments. I have been told the method is inferior before which motivated me to enter competitions in 2024 to get unbiased anonymous feedback. I thought maybe the critics are right. I could be brewing inferior beer. However, I have confirmed with data across 21 different BJCP categories that the naysayers are full of beans.

Here’s my first year of competition feedback (though one of the ribbons is for a mead and the belt is my monthly club challenge). Best of Show tap handle in the back.

 

[Halfakneecap]

Interesting that the technique is not supposed to produce enough roast flavors when my highest scores in competition are American Porter, English Porter, Baltic Porter, Irish Stout, etc…. For example, I used Curt Stock’s American Porter recipe and adapted it to the techniques learned in Brewing Better Beer and scored a 43 and two 42(s) in the three competitions I entered it in which included NHC First Round. Likewise, I’ve brewed every beer the same way for years and years.

I have been told the method is inferior before which motivated me to enter competitions to get unbiased anonymous feedback. I thought maybe the critics are right. I could be brewing inferior beer. I have confirmed with data across 21 different BJCP categories that the naysayers are full of beans.

Here’s my first yr feedback (though one of the ribbons is for a mead):

Great work!

 

[jcav]

Interesting that the technique is not supposed to produce enough roast flavors when my highest scores in competition are American Porter, English Porter, Baltic Porter, Irish Stout, etc…. For example, I used Curt Stock’s American Porter recipe (which was definitely not written using the techniques) and adapted it to the techniques learned in Brewing Better Beer and scored a 43 and two 42(s) in the three competitions I entered it in which included NHC First Round. Likewise, I’ve brewed every beer the same way for years and years regardless of the source recipe.

This ain’t the first time I’ve heard these arguments. I have been told the method is inferior before which motivated me to enter competitions in 2024 to get unbiased anonymous feedback. I thought maybe the critics are right. I could be brewing inferior beer. However, I have confirmed with data across 21 different BJCP categories that the naysayers are full of beans.

Here’s my first year of competition feedback (though one of the ribbons is for a mead and the belt is my monthly club challenge). Best of Show tap handle in the back.

Congrats on your wins! I am also a proponent of holding back my dark grains until ramp up to mash out. I get my mash ph set where I want it for the style I am making (let's say 5.2 as an example) and only mash the base grains without the dark grains, caramel malts, specialty malts etc. Then add the other grains during ramp up to mash out. The dark/specialty grains are in there the whole time during ramp up to mash out, during mash out, and during the sparge into the kettle. My beers are fantastic and eveyrone around here loves them so I always do it the same since I get stellar results. I learned this also after reading Gordon's books several years ago and after I tried it I was sold. That's what's great about brewing everyone has their techniques and whatever techniques they master on their equipment enables them to make great beer. There are many tools used along the way and there are many ways to skin a cat.

John

 

[sibelman]

So, "it's all good?"

 

[day_trippr]

"Peace in our time"

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I think we may have "jumped the shark" here with all the OT rants.

The question on when to add dark grains is a periodic thread and historically can go done the path this thread took (the various steeping options are mentioned, someone mentions Strong's approach as the books contain additional information, posts claim they couldn't make it work, sometimes there was discussion about what went wrong in the failed attempts, ...).

In other topics in other forums, I've seen people post recipes that scored in the low 30s using this technique. I suspected it would take scores in the 40s to 'push back' on the 'forum wisdom' that this technique doesn't work. The scores are in and "time will tell" with regard to 'forum wisdom' adjusting to this situation.

In many respects, this re-occurring discussion is no different than the "extract is always darker than expected" belief from the 2015-2018 time frame. Once the primary cause of the failure (stale LME) was identified and a measurement for fresh/stale LME was identified (color of an OG 44 wort - which comes from published content around 2015), there were secondary waves of "ya, but" which resulted in a good list of other ways to fail when using LME. But in the end, 'forum wisdom' adjusted (for the better).

Expect to see future threads on "how to steep dark grains" that will likely goes down a similar path (perhaps with more discussion from people on processes that work as well from people who have yet to make it work).

On the flip side, if you don't see future threads, it could suggest that the LLM models are good enough at summarizing brewing techniques that people believe that they don't need Q&A discussion.

---

eta: To close out this post: yes, I've used the technique, yes, I made good beer; and no, I have no competition scores.

eta (2): added comment about people talking more about successes (as well as those who talk about failures).

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Brulosophy has dine 5 or 6 exbeeriments comparing different mashing and steeping methods for dark grains. They haven't produced major differences, or the results people expected in some case. One beer with cold steeped grains tasted of tobacco, when the mashed dark grain version didn't. The fully mashed version was preferred at least once.

It's largely about personal preference at the end of the day I reckon.

 

[Bobby_M]

Ask 10 brewers and get 10 different answers.

A recipe can be properly crafted to account for dark grains being in the for the entire mash or added in the last 5 minutes. If they are in for the entire mash, you'd use less. If they are added late, you'd use more. How much less or more? Well, if you're following someone else's recipe, you should know when THEY added it if you want the beer to be true to recipe.

Side note: This is why BrewFather has a field per grain entry that indicates late additions.


Mash pH will be affected. Do you need the acidity from the dark grains to hit the 5.0-5.6 range or do you want to just use lactic/phosphoric acid additions to hit it? Do you not care at all about mash pH? Move along.

 

[Bobby_M]

So… **Brewing Better Beer** and **Modern Homebrew Recipes** containing numerous award winning recipes doesn’t appeal to authority? Cool.

Here’s another appeal to authority: **Brewing Classic Styles** was also written by a 2x Ninkasi award winner, describing 80 award winning recipes, where only base malts are mashed, …and steeping grains are used throughout. Granted the recipes are written for extract but IMO all the brewer is doing in the mash is creating extract anyway. Especially since each recipe includes an all grain replacement for the extract near the end.

…and there are comments at the end of each of the paragraphs dedicated to the subject on pg 14 of BCS when speaking about caramel malts, kilned and roasted malts.

Ck it out for yourselves. Try both. …or not. Your call.

I'm just fine appealing to Jamil for whatever method he endorses, but I think it's an error to assume that his adaptation to all grain is suggesting that the specialty malts are not "in the mash". Nowhere in the text does it suggest that and if you've ever listened to his podcasts, he's never suggested or endorsed adding dark malts at the end of the mash or steeping them in the boil as an extra step. On the contrary, there was one brewstrong episode where a listener asked about mash capping dark grains and he (and Tasty McDole) basically said it's a waste of grain because you have to use more to get the same effect.

 

[Halfakneecap]

I don’t get why it’s such a big deal, and I don’t understand why people are quick to infer you’re not brewing “properly” if you don’t measure ph every step of the brewing process. If you like it, do it, cool, but don’t get on a high horse if many other people don’t.

 

[Bobby_M]

I don’t get why it’s such a big deal, and I don’t understand why people are quick to infer you’re not brewing “properly” if you don’t measure ph every step of the brewing process. If you like it, do it, cool, but don’t get on a high horse if many other people don’t.

Who inferred that? You didn't quote any post specifically.

 

[Halfakneecap]

Who inferred that? You didn't quote any post specifically.

Read through all the replies.

 

[mac_1103]

I don’t understand why people are quick to infer you’re not brewing “properly” if you don’t measure ph every step of the brewing process.

Who inferred that?

Read through all the replies.

I have and I assume that you're referring to #30 and #35, but all he did was say what he's learned and what he does. If you're making good to great beers without worrying about pH at each step, that doesn't mean that pH isn't important. It's a lot more likely to mean that you're getting the pH right without worrying about it. And eventually, if you brew enough different styles of beer, you're likely to brew one where you don't get it right without worrying about it and that one won't turn out good to great.

 

[Halfakneecap]

“dude sucks at brewing” lol among others.

Anyway I’m not losing any sleep, brew how you want

 

[Bobby_M]

Read through all the replies.

Typical forum decorum is if you want to make a point about something written, you quote or reply to the relevant posts for context. Then I asked specifically and you tell me to review the whole thread. Not cool, but I played along anyway and found not a single post where anyone suggested you had to measure pH at all, nevermind "at every step of the brewing process".

Whether you want to care about it or not, pH does play a role in brewing and dark grain plays a significant role in that (as does source water, salts and acid additions). You don't have to care about it and no one is interested in forcing you to care.

 

[Indian_villager]

LOL @ this thread.

This is a hobby, for fun. You can either get in, experiment, have fun and do it the way you like it, or turn it into a corndog waving contest.

For the style of beer you are gunning for I have personally capped it meaning adding the roast grains to the last bit of the mash while raising to mashout temp and had a very tasty beer on my hands. Its been a while since I did it will the full grain bill at the start so I don't have a direct comparison to quote for you.

As for what is "best", on something as subjective as the taste of beer that is to be determined by you, your capability to generate beer, and your ability to discern the difference.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Who inferred that? [Halfakneecap] didn't quote any post specifically.

FWIW, reply #30 seems to fit most the criteria. And don't overlook #39.

Getting back to the process in Modern Homebrew Recipes: given the scores posted in #43, it's hard to believe claims that the process doesn't work (at all for any style). It clearly works well for a number of styles. And, if some of the newer styles require acid adjustments, people will update this process accordingly.

 

[Yesfan]

Ask 10 brewers and get 10 different answers.

A recipe can be properly crafted to account for dark grains being in the for the entire mash or added in the last 5 minutes. If they are in for the entire mash, you'd use less. If they are added late, you'd use more. How much less or more? Well, if you're following someone else's recipe, you should know when THEY added it if you want the beer to be true to recipe.

Side note: This is why BrewFather has a field per grain entry that indicates late additions.


Mash pH will be affected. Do you need the acidity from the dark grains to hit the 5.0-5.6 range or do you want to just use lactic/phosphoric acid additions to hit it? Do you not care at all about mash pH? Move along.

.I didn't know Brewfather had that feature. Definitely good to know. Thanks!