Shipping Homebrew - The Hard Truth (as I understand it)

[elkshadow]

So wait, I only skimmed this thread, I didn't really read it. If my skimming is correct, I can get the death penalty for shipping beer? Please clarify this for me. That seems extreme.

 

[Qhrumphf]

So wait, I only skimmed this thread, I didn't really read it. If my skimming is correct, I can get the death penalty for shipping beer? Please clarify this for me. That seems extreme.

Only USPS and only if your shipment of beer results in someone's death. And the odds of it getting there are unbelievably small. I only brought it becuase its spelled out in law because shipping via USPS is illegal, and the penalties could be very severe if someone were hurt or injured.

Point is to stick to a private carrier like FedEx or UPS, where its usually legal to ship, depending on state law. I would assume if your shipment hurt someone you could still get in legal trouble but nowhere near as severe, no more than shipping anything else non related to beer.

 

[WayFrae]

Oh yes, ammo is shipped all the time. The only requirement is a placard on outside of the box marked ORM D. Now such items as smokeless powder, and primers require more, including a hazardous materials fee.

I really hate that fee.

 

[bgm1961]

Point is to stick to a private carrier like FedEx or UPS, where its usually legal to ship, depending on state law.

I guess my original point is that, white it is legal in most states, unless you are a licensed shipper, it is NOT "OK", nor "Above Board".

In several states it is illegal, no matter who the shipper is. In the rest of the states, it is against company policy. And I would assume that any lawyer would say in a court room, it's up to the person who submitted the package to ensure their package is submitted in accordance with.

So what all this means is that every time we ship homebrew, we must recognize that we are skirting either the law or policy... hence my statement that it is not OK, nor above board.

But as long as our packaging is careful, and they don't "ask any questions", then everything works out in the end. So my other point for the OP, is to stir conversation amongst ourselves... is this how we REALLY want to operate for the next "X" number of years? Are we always going to be OK with skirting around the edges just to share our brews long distance?

Our community is growing and gaining mass. I think some sort of movement can happen. But the comments so far in this thread suggest that a lot of people are fine operating under the "just don't get caught" philosophy.

Shouldn't we move past that?

 

[Clonefan94]

Now I don't send beer via the USPS but I am sure that a lot of people do. The cost to prosecute a case for someone sending a few bottles of homebrew would far, far outweigh any benefit. Think of this.....how would the USPS even know it was alcoholic beer unless it was tested in a certified lab?

When has the cost, ever stopped the US government from doing anything?

I really don't mean this as a political statement at all. This is more a warning to anything just assuming nothing will happen if I get caught.

My father works for the post office and has for over 25 years. The amount of stuff they do, with complete disregard for the cost, is astounding. The most recent is eliminating an 8 hour shift, moving those workers to other shifts, then making everyone work the over time to cover it. So, instead of just paying regular wages for an 8 hour shift, they think it's more cost saving to pay everyone 8 hours over time for that extra shift. No one lost their jobs, they all just get to make over time money now.

Again, the reason I say this is as a warning. If you think the cost will stop the post office from doing anything, you are wrong. Now, they may not want to bother themselves with it, but money would not be the issue.

 

[jbaysurfer]

I guess my original point is that, white it is legal in most states, unless you are a licensed shipper, it is NOT "OK", nor "Above Board".

In several states it is illegal, no matter who the shipper is. In the rest of the states, it is against company policy. And I would assume that any lawyer would say in a court room, it's up to the person who submitted the package to ensure their package is submitted in accordance with.

So what all this means is that every time we ship homebrew, we must recognize that we are skirting either the law or policy... hence my statement that it is not OK, nor above board.

But as long as our packaging is careful, and they don't "ask any questions", then everything works out in the end. So my other point for the OP, is to stir conversation amongst ourselves... is this how we REALLY want to operate for the next "X" number of years? Are we always going to be OK with skirting around the edges just to share our brews long distance?

Our community is growing and gaining mass. I think some sort of movement can happen. But the comments so far in this thread suggest that a lot of people are fine operating under the "just don't get caught" philosophy.

Shouldn't we move past that?

I think the entire tone of your thread is nannying. I think you're willing to jeopardize a way that works to start your "movement". I'd rather have a way that works then another "movement". This isn't about morale imperatives or greater good.

I've learned to choose my battles, and I wouldn't choose this one. I'd rather not see someone who's in the mood for big show jeopardizing something that currently works quite well. The entire wine world works on our our 'policy loophole' too, lets leave well enough alone.

Push hard enough and your movement is going to make fedex change their policy of not giving you the 3rd degree on the contents of every package you ship. I'd rather not give up my right to privacy so that someone with a dogmatic sense of right and wrong doesn't have to ignore a corporate "policy".

 

[Qhrumphf]

I think the entire tone of your thread is nannying. I think you're willing to jeopardize a way that works to start your "movement". I'd rather have a way that works then another "movement". This isn't about morale imperatives or greater good.

I've learned to choose my battles, and I wouldn't choose this one. I'd rather not see someone who's in the mood for big show jeopardizing something that currently works quite well. The entire wine world works on our our 'policy loophole' too, lets leave well enough alone.

Push hard enough and your movement is going to make fedex change their policy of not giving you the 3rd degree on the contents of every package you ship. I'd rather not give up my right to privacy so that someone with a dogmatic sense of right and wrong doesn't have to ignore a corporate "policy".

Gotta say, I agree with this. Sometimes, you've gotta pick your battles carefully, or else something can end up even more restrictive than it was in the past.

I'd think if it made sense to try and change it, the AHA would have taken that fight up long ago.

 

[bgm1961]

I think the entire tone of your thread is nannying. I think you're willing to jeopardize a way that works to start your "movement". I'd rather have a way that works then another "movement". This isn't about morale imperatives or greater good.

I've learned to choose my battles, and I wouldn't choose this one. I'd rather not see someone who's in the mood for big show jeopardizing something that currently works quite well. The entire wine world works on our our 'policy loophole' too, lets leave well enough alone.

OK, that's a fair counter opinion which I certainly understand and respect. And I appreciate that you offered it to this discussion, as your point is a really important element to consider.

And despite the nature of my nannying tone, I do agree with you from a practical standpoint. It's the principal that I'm addressing.

Think about it... for every regional or national level competition, the organizer is in effect, sanctioning [shipping] practices that are not entirely "above board". While I agree that on the spectrum of violations, this is really low, but a violation none the less.

So isn't it time to have a "conversation" about legitimizing the shipping process? As our community continues to grow, and as the AHA continues to gain stature and clout (especially being part of the BA), I simply think it's better to address the issue now by working to legitimize homebrew shipping.

Better than waiting till later down the road when the issue will surely explode. Then our ability to ship will surely be jeopardized.

 

[jbaysurfer]

OK, that's a fair counter opinion which I certainly understand and respect. And I appreciate that you offered it to this discussion, as your point is a really important element to consider.

And despite the nature of my nannying tone, I do agree with you from a practical standpoint. It's the principal that I'm addressing.

Think about it... for every regional or national level competition, the organizer is in effect, sanctioning [shipping] practices that are not entirely "above board". While I agree that on the spectrum of violations, this is really low, but a violation none the less.

So isn't it time to have a "conversation" about legitimizing the shipping process? As our community continues to grow, and as the AHA continues to gain stature and clout (especially being part of the BA), I simply think it's better to address the issue now by working to legitimize homebrew shipping.

Better than waiting till later down the road when the issue will surely explode. Then our ability to ship will surely be jeopardized.

You have what, 10/12 posts outside of this thread? Now you're here to campaign on behalf of the community, even though to any extent you haven't really been a part of the community in any other capacity? Have the conversation in a less public format. Read your responses. The community supports the practice as it stands.

I also think you're bending over backwards trying to nanny behavior that by in-large does not violate any laws, and merely violates a corporate policy (which carries no legal weight whatsoever) that the corporation in question doesn't bother to enforce themselves.

The fact you can list a few states where some possibly archaic law (also generally unenforced) does not mean the vast majority of us are doing anything wrong. If you deem violating that corporate policy as such a moral affront you need to whistle-blow it on a public forum, well then you are doing exactly the worst possible thing for the community, you're throwing it under the bus.

Edit: This is also my last post on this thread. I don't want to give any further momentum to this conversation.

 

[LandoLincoln]

Our community is growing and gaining mass. I think some sort of movement can happen. But the comments so far in this thread suggest that a lot of people are fine operating under the "just don't get caught" philosophy.

Shouldn't we move past that?

Should we write letters to our congresspeople asking them to change the laws? Certainly.

Should we stop shipping beer to contests until the law is changed? Absolutely not.

Think about why this law was put into place.

Most likely, it was to stop liquor vendors from selling alcoholic beverages to people without paying the usual state taxes on it, or to stop people from bypassing the three-tier liquor sale system. It most certainly was not meant to stop homebrewers from sending samples to a contest. Homebrew contests probably didn't even exist when this was law was put into effect, so they didn't make any exceptions for homebrew contests.

Since we're not selling any beer and homebrews don't have anything to do with the three-tier liquor sale system, I fail to see why we should lose sleep knowing that we're ignoring a law.

But if you're the type of person that worries about being prosecuted for such a thing, then by all means...do NOT ship beer to contests.

 

[bgm1961]

You have what, 10/12 posts outside of this thread? Now you're here to campaign on behalf of the community, even though to any extent you haven't really been a part of the community in any other capacity? Have the conversation in a less public format. Read your responses. The community supports the practice as it stands.

Your comment is valid and useful feedback. Perhaps I am way off-base with my position, but as a relative newcomer to the community, and given my disposition, I wanted to raise the question. The first time I looked into shipping my homebrew, it caused me to wonder what direction, if any, this matter is taking. So from yours' and everyone else's responses I've learned that everyone is happy with the status quo. I didn't set out to upset the apple cart.

And please don't judge my belonging to the community, by the number of posts in these forums. Just consider me a "late bloomer" who's been reinvigorated by attending last week's NHC.

If you deem violating that corporate policy as such a moral affront you need to whistle-blow it on a public forum, well then you are doing exactly the worst possible thing for the community, you're throwing it under the bus.

I like to be active in any community I feel part of... I started this thread to get on the road to becoming an active member... I certainly didn't intend for it to be received as flaming or throwing the community under the bus, though it clearly looks that way, now. So for that I apologize.

My intentions were to have this conversation for the future health of a community I look forward to belonging to for many years to come..., not to offend or incite.

 

[Phunhog]

When has the cost, ever stopped the US government from doing anything?

I really don't mean this as a political statement at all. This is more a warning to anything just assuming nothing will happen if I get caught.

My father works for the post office and has for over 25 years. The amount of stuff they do, with complete disregard for the cost, is astounding. The most recent is eliminating an 8 hour shift, moving those workers to other shifts, then making everyone work the over time to cover it. So, instead of just paying regular wages for an 8 hour shift, they think it's more cost saving to pay everyone 8 hours over time for that extra shift. No one lost their jobs, they all just get to make over time money now.

Again, the reason I say this is as a warning. If you think the cost will stop the post office from doing anything, you are wrong. Now, they may not want to bother themselves with it, but money would not be the issue.[/QUOT

It is generally cheaper to pay overtime to workers than to hire additional workers due to the additional cost of benefits. In my fire department it has been calculated to be about 10% cheaper to fill vacancies with overtime.