RIMS or HERMS?

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kcmobrewer

kcmobrewer

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So I'll start of by saying I am starting to collect equipment for a kal-ish clone. Gonna use the Blichmann boil coils in my HLT and BK.

Trying to decide though between the Blichmann RIMS Rocket or using the HERMS design Kal uses.

I like the idea of the rocket better, due mostly to more quickly changing and regulating mash temps. However, I'm afraid of how cumbersome this thing may become. I also like the idea of having multiple uses for it; ie randalizer and hop back. This seems like the quicker option as well. I like to cut down on my brew day one as much as possible.

I'm kinda turned off to HERMS because of having to keep the liquid level above the heat exchange coil for heat exchange. Also, after transferring having to make sure the water in the HLT and the MLT are all equalized. Seems like a lot of time.

Just looking for suggestions from anyone, but anyone with experience with both would be great.

Cheers!


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I've always had a RIMS system and it's worked flawlessly AFTER I figured out it's idiosyncrasies... Stuck mashes SUCK (Literally) but a stuck mash on a HERMS system wont scorch your mash whereas on a RIMS it might.

Keep an eye on your flow and all works well with the RIMS.

I have no expirience with a HERMS system but I can imagine that step mashes can be slow.
 
I don't step mash, so that is fine. On mine, the coil sits pretty high, so I have to add water after striking to keep it submerged. The mash heats slowly due to my slow maximum pump rate. I have an 8mm coil, which is a little under 3/8 I think. Even with a center inlet chugger pump I can't get much more than 1 gpm.

During the mash,I need to recirc both the wort and the water in the hlt, so that's two pumps running full time.

For the most part, it works great. I think this is a case of the grass being greener. I'm in the process of switching to an external counter flow heat exchanger instead of a submerged coil. That will alleviate two of the problems.
 
Yeah that sounds similar to kals system. Not sure on the size of the coil though.

HERMS intrigues me just because of the simplicity of having it already in the HLT


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atoughram said:
I've always had a RIMS system and it's worked flawlessly AFTER I figured out it's idiosyncrasies... Stuck mashes SUCK (Literally) but a stuck mash on a HERMS system wont scorch your mash whereas on a RIMS it might.

Keep an eye on your flow and all works well with the RIMS.

I have no expirience with a HERMS system but I can imagine that step mashes can be slow.
Click to expand...

This is a little off topic, but I have a question for you about temp probe placement for a RIMS system. Where have you placed the temp probe, and what type of results have you gotten? I'm in the process of putting together a RIMS system and would like you input.

The main reason I'm going to try the RIMS versus HERMS is simplicity and cost! Plus I have no desire to go all electric. I will use the RIMS for controlling mash temp and sparge temp. I will heat the strike water and boil with gas. Just my thought going into this
 
I have a direct fire rims and I'm not sure it could be easier.
I heat the MT to my dough in temp while i'm crushing grain.
Heat the HLT to 170 for sparging (I batch sparge on this system).
I recerculate MT with temp probe at outlet of MT and just enough to maintain temps and not scortch anything on the bottom.
The HLT goes to auto and recerts just long enough to maintain temps.
Once sparging starts the BK gets turned on.
I think any way you go will work out for you. Not using electric I can't comment on how long it takes to change temps but on my gas fired system a 10*F change only takes a minute (I haven't timed it but change the setting on the PID and forget it).
Good luck figuring out what you want your system to do, I think that was the hardest part, once you decide what you want your system to do it's just tweaks from there.
 
Frymn1969 said:
This is a little off topic, but I have a question for you about temp probe placement for a RIMS system. Where have you placed the temp probe, and what type of results have you gotten? I'm in the process of putting together a RIMS system and would like you input.

The main reason I'm going to try the RIMS versus HERMS is simplicity and cost! Plus I have no desire to go all electric. I will use the RIMS for controlling mash temp and sparge temp. I will heat the strike water and boil with gas. Just my thought going into this
Click to expand...

For years I had it in the MLT - mine is a keggle - located in a port welded in about half way up, so I was measuring actual grain temperature. I was running a 4500W element at 110V - so about 1125W - it wouldnt scorch no matter what but it was very slow to mash out and near impossible to do step mashes in a timely manner.

Then.... I came to this site.... :fro:

About a year ago I upgraded my system to all electric and all 220V. I use a 2000W element in my RIMS and have the RTD at the outlet of the RIMS tube. One would think that this would keep the mash from scorching but it doesnt. It measures temperature AS LONG as there is flow. So, if the flow stops, the probe might not see the temperature in time before it scorches in the RIMS tube. I've had the happen to me.

One other thing to think about - RIMS tube legnth...

I've got an 18" tube from BobbyM - great stuff, awesome workmanship.

My element is about 10" long or so.

My RTD Sensor WAS 2" (Now 4" long)

There is about 6" of liquid (In an 1.5" tube) between the end of the element and the RTD sensor and with the flow throttled down, the PID would make some pretty wild temperature swings. I ended up going with a longer RTD to get the measurement point closer to the end of the element and that lessened the overshoots and scorching problems. The better idea would've been to pick the element first, and then buy the proper legnth RIMS tube to get about 1" of seperation between the end of the element and the RTD sensor.

I still have a mechanical thermometer in the outlet of my MLT. The RIMS Tube Outlet Temp obviously leads in temperature, but the outlet of the MLT is 15 or 20 minutes behind it. So, if I step the temperature up from 148 to 168 to mash out - the outlet of the rims tube might hit 168 in about 15 minutes and it take another half an hour for the outlet of the HLT to match. I dont have the MLT insulated - but I'm planning on it.
 
I'm planning on having the temp on the valve coming out of the MLT. Just like kal does. I like that idea best I think. I figured then it would kick off when the entire mash temp had risen.

I'm hoping with the rims rocket the temp rise will be pretty fast and easy.


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kcmobrewer said:
I'm planning on having the temp on the valve coming out of the MLT. Just like kal does. I like that idea best I think. I figured then it would kick off when the entire mash temp had risen.

I'm hoping with the rims rocket the temp rise will be pretty fast and easy.


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Click to expand...

Be careful with that - Kal also has a HERMS and it wont scorch. I think the measurement point is too far away from the heating point to have good control.
 
Hmm I didn't even think of that. That's a good point. You think maybe a better place would be after the rims rocket as it re enters the MLT for recirc?


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Doesn't seem to make any sense to monitor the wort right at the heat source. It seems it would make more sense at the top or bottom of the mash. I know there's going to be a bit of a difference, but somewhere in between is an average


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I'm just surprised that measuring it on the output of my MLT before recircing to the rims rocket wouldn't work honestly. With recircing constantly throughout the mash.

I'm a newb at all of this, forgive my ignorance.


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kcmobrewer said:
I'm just surprised that measuring it on the output of my MLT before recircing to the rims rocket wouldn't work honestly. With recircing constantly throughout the mash.

I'm a newb at all of this, forgive my ignorance.


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Click to expand...

You have to measure coming out of the heat source to prevent over shooting your mash temp on a Rims. Otherwise you may have it going in at 150 and coming out at 165 because the temp dropped and the power kicks on at 100%. You have to consider the time it takes to filter through the mash.
 
brewmasterorr said:
You have to measure coming out of the heat source to prevent over shooting your mash temp on a Rims. Otherwise you may have it going in at 150 and coming out at 165 because the temp dropped and the power kicks on at 100%. You have to consider the time it takes to filter through the mash.
Click to expand...

I agree that probe controlling the heating element should be placed as close to the heat source as possible. This will increase reaction time for the PID to prevent scorching. I also think that it would be beneficial to monitor temp at bottom or coming out of MLT, but not for input into PID. This will give you a good indication of what's happening in your MLT.
 
Frymn1969 said:
I agree that probe controlling the heating element should be placed as close to the heat source as possible. This will increase reaction time for the PID to prevent scorching. I also think that it would be beneficial to monitor temp at bottom or coming out of MLT, but not for input into PID. This will give you a good indication of what's happening in your MLT.
Click to expand...

Exactly - I have a mechanical thermometer on the outlet of the MLT

IMG_1371.JPG

I've since taken the insulation off because it was getting ugly..
 
Hmm maybe I could do that. Mechanical on the out of the MLT and controller temp prove on the input right after the rims coil.


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I'll state that I haven't used either...but after seeing that thread about how nasty some rims elements got when not fully disassembling them and cleaning them after each use, I decided there is no way I want to have any type of system where I can't see or disassemble and clean every part...so I decided not to self build a rims or use any type of fixed coil in the hlt that I couldn't scrub, and I'm ordering a Tri clamp rims tube next week so it will be easy to disassemble and clean everything. I plan to be able to run it at 220v and 120v, 220v for heating strike water in hlt, then 120v for recirculating and heating mash.
 
kcmobrewer said:
Bump. Anyone out there using HERMS that will give some input?


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Click to expand...

I have used both. I use Rims right now. The issue with herms that I found was having enough volume of water to cover the coil. For example if I need 12 gallons of water to mash in and I need at least 10 gallons to cover the coil but I have a 15 gallon pot I now have to add cold water and bring it up to temp before I can start recirculating.... Of course you can preheat water in your boil kettle.. But I think Rims is easier and if you have a tri-clamp setup taking it apart for cleaning is easy.

1405883759168.jpg
 
Yeah I like that. That's why I was gonna go with the Blichmann. The rims rocket comes apart real easy so I can clean the whole thing.


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I have a eherms that is all triclover and built with 30-gallon stout kettles. It has a a bcs-462 powered control panel that I built. I have a single heating element in the bk and a single in the hlt. Both element are camco 55000 watt non-ripple ulwd type.

In order to keep the herms coil covered I need to have 21 gallons in my hlt. Depending on the beer I heat 8-20 gallons in the bk to 170 degrees, give or take. Then I start heating my strike water in the hlt. Right now my ground temp is about 70 degrees but I usually fill the tanks the night before a brew. I filter water on demand and run it slow through my charcoal filter to make sure I get all the chlorine out. It takes be around 2 hours to heat 12 gallons of water in the bk and then heat 23 gallons in the hlt to strike temp. During that time I am usually brewing coffee, eating breakfast and milling grain. Once my strike water is set I pump it over to the mlt and dough in. I let it rest for a couple minutes while I pump the preheated water back to the hlt. I start recirculating the water in the hlt to minimize temperature stratification. Then I mix up my mash again to make sure I got all the dough balls and start to recirc the mash through the Herms. By this point the bcs has equalized the hlt temperature to my desired temp to make sure my mash is on schedule. I start my 60 minute mash timer on the bcs. Once mg mash has completed it automatically goes to mash out mode. It will raise the temperature of the mash to 170. This means heating the hlt to at least 170. Usually a little over. Then I hold that temp for a bit to make sure I completely stop conversion and I start to fly sparge. My sparge water is heated at that point. Fly sparge takes around an hour. Once the liquid in the bk is about an inch over the element and turn it on at 100%. By the time I am done fly sparging and am almost at a boil.

It took a lot of time to get it all dialed but overall I like it. I don't like the herms coil from stout tanks but that is a different conversation. I think that herms is fine for a small system lime mine but I would go rims if I went much bigger. I built my control panel so that I can bump it up to 100 amps input and run 12000 watts in the bk and hlt at the same time for back to back 1+ bbl batches. Not sure if I will go that route or buy a brewmation control panel down the road. That is also another conversation.
 
Thanks for the insight. I appreciate it. I still do like the HERMS idea, no chance of scorching has it's perks.

How long would you say it takes to raise temp to mash out?


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Nah, just single infusion with a mashout. I'd say it takes around half hour to raise the mash temp to 170, perhaps a few minutes longer when I'm mashing a beer with a lower target fg (something in the 146-148° mash temp range). Again, that is with 5500 watt element. I believe my 30 gallon stout tanks came with a 50' x 1/2"ID herms coil, but there isn't a spec anywhere on the order history or invoice. I have center inlet ss chugger pumps and I have to throttle them way back during mashing because they flow so much wort through the herms coil.
 
Awesome thanks for all the info. I think I may end up going with a similar setup. Kals setup is a 50' 1/2in coil also, should make recirc and cleaning easy. At this point it's sounding less complicated than rims lol. Especially if I preheat extra water in the bk to compensate for keeping the volume above the coil.

Do you run your sparging water through the coil and then to the MLT? To clean it out. Or do you just pump everything through with pbw?


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I sparge through the coil. I only have 2 hoses to move that way. Also since the water goes from hlt to pump and back to coil it loses less temp in its way to the mlt to rinse the grain. Once enzyme activity is stopped by denaturing the enzymes at mashout the temperature of the sparge doesn't matter. But the warmer water going into the bk means less time to bring it to a boil.
 
So brewing today. I took 23 gallons in the hlt @150 degrees and 7 gallons + 20# of grain in the MLT from 148 degrees to 168 degrees grain bed temp in 34 minutes today with the herms.
 
Nice that's not bad at all. You may have just changed my mind on rims lol


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sandyeggoxj said:
So brewing today. I took 23 gallons in the hlt @150 degrees and 7 gallons + 20# of grain in the MLT from 148 degrees to 168 degrees grain bed temp in 34 minutes today with the herms.
Click to expand...

Where were you measuring the temperature of the mash at?

Not sure how 150f water can raise the mash to 168f???
 
I use the 2" brewershardware rims tube and I couldn't be any happier with it. I'm running a 240V 4500W element on 120V and it maintains my mash temperatures perfectly. I chose to go with a rims system mainly because I didn't like the amount of water needed to run a herms system. Especially when doing a 5g batch in 15 gallon kettles. I feel the rims system is more versatile but this is my opinion. All in all you can't go wrong with either type. Plus a benefit to the blichmann rims rocket is that you also get a hop back.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attach...6-hybrid-gas-electric-rims-build-img_0749.jpg
 
atoughram said:
Where were you measuring the temperature of the mash at?

Not sure how 150f water can raise the mash to 168f???
Click to expand...

Sorry I wasn't clear. That was my starting points. Hlt was 150 and mlt was 148. Then raised the mlt to 168 by heating the hlt to 172 or so. I lose several degrees as the wort goes through the pump.
 
sandyeggoxj said:
Sorry I wasn't clear. That was my starting points. Hlt was 150 and mlt was 148. Then raised the mlt to 168 by heating the hlt to 172 or so. I lose several degrees as the wort goes through the pump.
Click to expand...

Where were you measuring the temperature of the mash at?

I'd be really interested in you HEX too - could you take a picture of it?

I'm not sure of the calculations (I should've taken ME classes...). You've got 7 gallons of water (58.38 pounds) and 20 pounds of grain and raising it 20 degrees in a little over a half and hour so your HEX is really efficient! You must have designed it well. It sounds as if your transferring heat more efficiently with the HERMS than the RIMS - you definitely have more surface area.
 
I have a 20 gallon stout HERMS setup. My issue is the same as others, with the coil raised above the element it requires top up water after mash in. That means there is lag time while I wait for the HLT to come back to temp. With no insulation on the MLT, even in the summer I lose too much temp. That leaves a few options, pre heat extra water, mash in 3-4 degrees too warm, or insulate the MLT. The other issue I have is that I have to keep my HLT around 3-4 degrees hotter than my mash set temp to account for temp loss as the wort goes through the tubing and pump.
 
Bensiff said:
I have a 20 gallon stout HERMS setup. My issue is the same as others, with the coil raised above the element it requires top up water after mash in. That means there is lag time while I wait for the HLT to come back to temp. With no insulation on the MLT, even in the summer I lose too much temp. That leaves a few options, pre heat extra water, mash in 3-4 degrees too warm, or insulate the MLT. The other issue I have is that I have to keep my HLT around 3-4 degrees hotter than my mash set temp to account for temp loss as the wort goes through the tubing and pump.
Click to expand...

I guess there are pro's and con's to each system..
 
Just heat up some water in your boil kettle and use that as your strike water. Problem solved, no lag time.

I am trying to compare both options myself, I keep bouncing back and forth.

How quick can you bring the mash up to 168 with a RIMS?
 

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