RIMS or HERMS?

[sandyeggoxj]

So brewing today. I took 23 gallons in the hlt @150 degrees and 7 gallons + 20# of grain in the MLT from 148 degrees to 168 degrees grain bed temp in 34 minutes today with the herms.

 

[kcmobrewer]

Nice that's not bad at all. You may have just changed my mind on rims lol


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[atoughram]

So brewing today. I took 23 gallons in the hlt @150 degrees and 7 gallons + 20# of grain in the MLT from 148 degrees to 168 degrees grain bed temp in 34 minutes today with the herms.

Where were you measuring the temperature of the mash at?

Not sure how 150f water can raise the mash to 168f???

 

[byrone]

I use the 2" brewershardware rims tube and I couldn't be any happier with it. I'm running a 240V 4500W element on 120V and it maintains my mash temperatures perfectly. I chose to go with a rims system mainly because I didn't like the amount of water needed to run a herms system. Especially when doing a 5g batch in 15 gallon kettles. I feel the rims system is more versatile but this is my opinion. All in all you can't go wrong with either type. Plus a benefit to the blichmann rims rocket is that you also get a hop back.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attach...6-hybrid-gas-electric-rims-build-img_0749.jpg

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Where were you measuring the temperature of the mash at?

Not sure how 150f water can raise the mash to 168f???

Sorry I wasn't clear. That was my starting points. Hlt was 150 and mlt was 148. Then raised the mlt to 168 by heating the hlt to 172 or so. I lose several degrees as the wort goes through the pump.

 

[atoughram]

Sorry I wasn't clear. That was my starting points. Hlt was 150 and mlt was 148. Then raised the mlt to 168 by heating the hlt to 172 or so. I lose several degrees as the wort goes through the pump.

Where were you measuring the temperature of the mash at?

I'd be really interested in you HEX too - could you take a picture of it?

I'm not sure of the calculations (I should've taken ME classes...). You've got 7 gallons of water (58.38 pounds) and 20 pounds of grain and raising it 20 degrees in a little over a half and hour so your HEX is really efficient! You must have designed it well. It sounds as if your transferring heat more efficiently with the HERMS than the RIMS - you definitely have more surface area.

 

[Bensiff]

I have a 20 gallon stout HERMS setup. My issue is the same as others, with the coil raised above the element it requires top up water after mash in. That means there is lag time while I wait for the HLT to come back to temp. With no insulation on the MLT, even in the summer I lose too much temp. That leaves a few options, pre heat extra water, mash in 3-4 degrees too warm, or insulate the MLT. The other issue I have is that I have to keep my HLT around 3-4 degrees hotter than my mash set temp to account for temp loss as the wort goes through the tubing and pump.

 

[atoughram]

I have a 20 gallon stout HERMS setup. My issue is the same as others, with the coil raised above the element it requires top up water after mash in. That means there is lag time while I wait for the HLT to come back to temp. With no insulation on the MLT, even in the summer I lose too much temp. That leaves a few options, pre heat extra water, mash in 3-4 degrees too warm, or insulate the MLT. The other issue I have is that I have to keep my HLT around 3-4 degrees hotter than my mash set temp to account for temp loss as the wort goes through the tubing and pump.

I guess there are pro's and con's to each system..

 

[kcmobrewer]

Yeah in plan to wrap my MLT in reflectix


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[BillNye]

Just heat up some water in your boil kettle and use that as your strike water. Problem solved, no lag time.

I am trying to compare both options myself, I keep bouncing back and forth.

How quick can you bring the mash up to 168 with a RIMS?

 

[kcmobrewer]

How quick can you bring the mash up to 168 with a RIMS?

Check post #31. That's already been answered.


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[GotPushrods]

An insulated MLT and/or heating strike water in the BK is a good HERMS solution.

I have to say, there is something elegant about a HERMs only having 2 elements. And only 1 that every touches wort.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Im planning on doing a HERMS/RIMS Hybrid. I will use a heat exchanger instead of a coil in the HLT, so 2 loops. Thats the HERMS, then I have a 2000w band heater on my mash tun so sort of RIMS. I hope it works out....

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Where were you measuring the temperature of the mash at?

I'd be really interested in you HEX too - could you take a picture of it?

I'm not sure of the calculations (I should've taken ME classes...). You've got 7 gallons of water (58.38 pounds) and 20 pounds of grain and raising it 20 degrees in a little over a half and hour so your HEX is really efficient! You must have designed it well. It sounds as if your transferring heat more efficiently with the HERMS than the RIMS - you definitely have more surface area.

Temp is measured in the grain bed. If I manually probe it with a calibrated CDN thermometer is agrees with my bcs reading with less than 1 degree F of variance. I'll get a picture of the hex tonight. Need to keg a "mild" and kick off 10 gallons of hard cider.

Everything in my system is stainless steel and tri-clamp. The only threads in the entire brewery are on the ss center inlet chugger pump head. Those will be gone soon.

 

[kcmobrewer]

S

 

[sandyeggoxj]

The more I think about it the more I wanna do HERMS. Especially a setup when I can run the bk element and the HLT element separately. For either back to back bathes or hearing the wort fast and early


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What sort of power feed do you have? Are you going to use PIDs or a PLC?

I bought a bcs 462 because I plan to have it controlling my glycol and fermenters soon. It can do 8 temp sensors.

 

[atoughram]

Temp is measured in the grain bed.

That's impressive. Thanks!

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Ambients have been 80+ during brewing here at 7100' MSL. I should add that measured voltage at the output studs of my control panel is typically 235, but fluctuates between 230 and 242. That is as measured by my fluke 179 meter. I know that voltage impacts ACTUAL heat input into the water/wort. Also, here are some pictures of the HEX.

Standalone shot:


Looks to be 1/2" OD. Unknown length, but I would guess around 50'


Here it is next to a 5 gallon ball lock for scale:

 

[sandyeggoxj]

You will notice that every time there is a bend there is a corresponding weld. I don't like that at all! There is also a weld in the middle of the coil somewhere. Freaking Stout kettles built this. Their stuff is cost effective, but it is still cheap chinese $#!T. I am not impressed with the welds on my kettles. Especially when you look at the made in USA brewhemoth right next to it.

 

[BillNye]

Check post #31. That's already been answered.


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Maybe you should check it and also re-read the thread.

He has an eHERMS, I specifically said RIMS.

 

[kcmobrewer]

Idk what kettles I'm going with. I like blichmann mostly because of the clean in place of the sight glass. Seems really convenient

Gonna go with their boil could too I think because of the ability to unplug them during cleaning.


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[atoughram]

I specifically said RIMS.

Mine can go from 148f to 168f in about the same time - 30 minutes.

EDIT - I might add that my batch sizes are 11 gallons and typically 25 pounds of grain and 8 gallons of strike water.

 

[brewmasterorr]

Herms will work well one batch at a time but you cannot pre-heat water in the boil kettle if you already have wort boiling in it.....

 

[kcmobrewer]

Could always put all the water in your HLT and add whatever you're gonna need to the MLT. Recirc the whole time your HLT is getting to temp. Using hot tap water I wouldn't think it'd take too long.


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[Frymn1969]

Just heat up some water in your boil kettle and use that as your strike water. Problem solved, no lag time.

I am trying to compare both options myself, I keep bouncing back and forth.

How quick can you bring the mash up to 168 with a RIMS?

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!

Strike close to mash temp, then raise it up a few degrees with RIMs tube.


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[byrone]

When I started building my system I was in the same boat (HERMS or RIMS). And like I stated in a earlier post I decided on a rims system but using gas burners. I was originally going to go all electric rims but when I was in the design phase of my control panel I decided against it. Why? It was due to the cost of the components to handle a 40 amp system. The problem with having an electric system and a rims is that the current draw is too high for a dryer outlet when both the rims and hlt are powered. Even if you used a 240V 4500W element on 120V in the rims tube it draws 9 amps plus then a 240V 5500W hlt would then draw 23 amps for a total of 32 amps. So to run this type of system you need a 40amp service which is not cheap to put together. The only way possible to run this on a dryer outlet is that only one element could be on a time and that would be annoying to orchestrate or to have a separate power input for the rims. I'm not sure if you have taken this into account so I just wanted to throw this out there as this was what I went through. If you are set on having an electric system I would recommend a herms setup.

 

[atoughram]

Even if you used a 240V 4500W element on 120V

The equation changes when you use a 2000W element at 240V in the RIMS tube

2000 + 4500 = 6500 = ~27A - A 30amp breaker will easily handle it.

I've got a 5500W and 2000W running simultaneously at about 33a measured and a 40a breaker. Haven’t tripped it yet

 

[kcmobrewer]

you have to consider the amps used by the pumps too though right?


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[sandyeggoxj]

Those are something like 1 amp each. 1.2 maybe? Almost nothing.

 

[byrone]

The equation changes when you use a 2000W element at 240V in the RIMS tube

2000 + 4500 = 6500 = ~27A - A 30amp breaker will easily handle it.

I've got a 5500W and 2000W running simultaneously at about 33a measured and a 40a breaker. Haven’t tripped it yet

You're correct by increasing the voltage from 120V to 240V you will draw less current. The voltage is user preference because of the scare of possible scorching but must be taken into account when deciding on the electrical components. Personally I wouldn't push the outlet that close to max current rating. I always put in a 80% safety factor so for a 27A load I would install no less than a 40 amp breaker and 8 awg wire(power into the controller). As with the current draw of your system a 40 amp breaker is fine to handle the pumps and both the hlt and rims running at the same time without tripping the breaker.