RIMS for Dummies

[limulus]

In a traditional system you still need to sparge even when you recirculate your wort. I use a no sparge system.

 

[IPAAAA]

I found this and thought I'd share...

http://www.vandelogt.nl/htm/rims_herms_uk.htm

Helps explain it for use newbs.

Limulus, why do you use a no sparge system? Just ease of use or you have a bigger, better setup so you don't have?

 

[limulus]

I found this and thought I'd share...

http://www.vandelogt.nl/htm/rims_herms_uk.htm

Helps explain it for use newbs.

Limulus, why do you use a no sparge system? Just ease of use or you have a bigger, better setup so you don't have?

To save time and out of general laziness. I did a couple of Brew In A Bag (BIAB) sessions last year and it worked pretty well (search for BIAB and you will see a lot of threads here and on other forums).

I had brewed back in the 90s and stopped when the kids came along. I already had a pump from those days and just decided to go with a no sparge RIMS. There are others on HBT who also use similar systems (bakins for one). He uses a real RIMS heater and not the bucket heater I have. If my lazy man RIMS does not work, I will buy a real RIMS tube but will stick with the no sparge method...at least for now.

 

[klyph]

Whats the purpose of having a T-peice on both ends ? In other words run the wort straight in from the opposite side the element is installed.

Well, the original design was to have the element at one end, and the probe at the other, for no reason other than that's how most of the one's I've seen were built. So, I bought all the parts I needed, figuring instead of using a 1.5" to 1" reducer to a 1" to 3/4 reducer (limited selection) I'd just solder that brass fitting into the 1.5" end cap. I soldered up the 1.5" pieces and then got to thinking about it (usually a bad idea) and I didn't like that the probe wire was going one direction, and the element wire the opposite. I guess I wanted to tidy it up by having all the electrical going one direction, and the hoses all going one direction. It wasn't perfectly planned or executed, but it works very well.

Short answer: there is no good reason to have T's at both ends, I changed the design halfway through.

 

[newrbrewer]

I have a RIMS tube on order and I am trying to decide on the element. I will be running 120v and need to stay around 1500w or so. I can get a low density 5500w 240v element locally and was wondering what you guys thought about running at 1375w vs 1500w?
Most 1500w low density elements appear to be zinc plated and I am just not sure if I'm comfortable with that.

 

[Shackled]

I found this and thought I'd share...

http://www.vandelogt.nl/htm/rims_herms_uk.htm

Helps explain it for use newbs.

Thanks for that link. Helped explain it to this noob.

If you use a RIMS system could you essential make it a no sparge if you start with the full boil volume of water,and after the normal mash time you set the PID to the higher sparge temp and the recirculate for the remaining sparge time?

I could be way off here. But havent seen this answered elsewhere. If its found anywhere else please feel free to show me where it is

 

[klyph]

Thanks for that link. Helped explain it to this noob.

If you use a RIMS system could you essential make it a no sparge if you start with the full boil volume of water,and after the normal mash time you set the PID to the higher sparge temp and the recirculate for the remaining sparge time?

I could be way off here. But havent seen this answered elsewhere. If its found anywhere else please feel free to show me where it is

Yes, you do this even with a sparge, it's called mashing out.

 

[pickles]

Thanks for that link. Helped explain it to this noob.

If you use a RIMS system could you essential make it a no sparge if you start with the full boil volume of water,and after the normal mash time you set the PID to the higher sparge temp and the recirculate for the remaining sparge time?

I could be way off here. But havent seen this answered elsewhere. If its found anywhere else please feel free to show me where it is

If i'm following your logic correctly, you would have a very, very thin mash. Not an ideal situation.

 

[Shackled]

I may not have asked this in the best way.
And Im going to just toss out some numbers as an example

lets say I need ~6 gallons for my full boil.
If I would normally mash with 4 gallons, 1 gallon absorbed by the grains, leaving 3 gallons from the 1 hour mash, then sparge with another 3 gallons to get my 6 gallons
Could I in theory use a RIMS setup with 7 gallons, with the same 1 gallon lost to grains, after first mash of 1 hour just up the temp to what it would be after a normal sparge?


I have many thoughts, most of them are not good ones......

 

[IPAAAA]

Thanks for that link. Helped explain it to this noob.

If you use a RIMS system could you essential make it a no sparge if you start with the full boil volume of water,and after the normal mash time you set the PID to the higher sparge temp and the recirculate for the remaining sparge time?

I could be way off here. But havent seen this answered elsewhere. If its found anywhere else please feel free to show me where it is

No problem. I am a total noob and that helped explain a lot of it to me too.

 

[Reelale]

Yes, you do this even with a sparge, it's called mashing out.

If you are planning on using a 120v element, don't plan on hitting mash-out temperatures very quickly. I tried this on Monday, recirculated for 45 minutes thinking that I could set the PID to 168 for the last 15. It didn't work. I was only able to get it to 158 in 15 minutes. From my experience, you need a way to boost the temperature other than RIMS. In my set-up, that would be direct-firing the BK which I use as a grant. But since I no-sparge, I really don't see the need for mash-out anyway. I'm starting the boil as the MLT is draining into the BK.

EDIT: This reply was to Shackled's question. I see from your pictures you are using 220VAC.

If i'm following your logic correctly, you would have a very, very thin mash. Not an ideal situation.

Why? That is the whole premise behind no-sparge.

I may not have asked this in the best way.
And Im going to just toss out some numbers as an example

lets say I need ~6 gallons for my full boil.
If I would normally mash with 4 gallons, 1 gallon absorbed by the grains, leaving 3 gallons from the 1 hour mash, then sparge with another 3 gallons to get my 6 gallons
Could I in theory use a RIMS setup with 7 gallons, with the same 1 gallon lost to grains, after first mash of 1 hour just up the temp to what it would be after a normal sparge?


I have many thoughts, most of them are not good ones......

Yes you can. But you can't expect the RIMS to heat it up that fast. It's real utility is to keep mash temperatures constant during recirculation. You'd need an additional boost of heat if you planned on mash-out in a reasonable time.

 

[craigsphillips]

Nice thread, Sawdustguy! It has been very informative and I've learned a lot.

Could you use Auber PID Model #SYL-2342, instead? It has a built-in relay that can handle 10A at 120VAC. That means a 1200 watt load can be connected directly to the controller without the need of an external relay or SSR. It would save the cost of the 1/4 DIN PID and 25A SSR. Thanks in advance for commenting.

 

[craigsphillips]

I guess this thread is dead...

 

[Sawdustguy]

On a forum like this you can't expect answers immediately. It can take a couple of days. Sure you can do that, and if you read the auber website for that particular PID, you would have known that it is designed to eliminate the need for an SSR with a low draw device.

From the Auber Website:

One of the unique features for this controller is that the built-in relay can handle 10 A of current at 120VAC. That means 1200 watts of load can be connected directly to the controller without the need of an external relay or SSR. That is a very convenient for applications that only a small heater is used.

1200 watt, 120 volt, low watt density elements are not common. After a quick Google search, the first page yielded only one: 1200 watts @ 120 Vac Water Heater Element

 

[kladue]

You could use a 240 volt rated element and feed it 120 volts for 1/4 the rated wattage.

 

[craigsphillips]

On a forum like this you can't expect answers immediately. It can take a couple of days. Sure you can do that, and if you read the auber website for that particular PID, you would have known that it is designed to eliminate the need for an SSR with a low draw device.

From the Auber Website:



1200 watt, 120 volt, low watt density elements are not common. After a quick Google search, the first page yielded only one: 1200 watts @ 120 Vac Water Heater Element

No worries, Sawdustguy. I'm electrically slower than most. I did read that on Auber's website, but justed wanted to run it by some other to see if there was something I was missing. It appears I was missing something, the size of the element.

So, if I understand correctly, the 1500 watt low density element has too high wattage for the model PID I want to use. Is there a way to still use the 1500 watt low density element and limit the wattage so it doesn't go over 1200 watts? If not and I manage to find a 1200 watt low density element will it heat the wort enough.

Thanks for your help.

 

[Reelale]

It won't heat the wort in any time soon. It is designed to maintain heated wort at a steady mash temperature, which is does very well. If you want to heat to substantial temperatures, 1200 watts probably won't do it. I know that 1500 watts won't. To heat, you probably need 220v elements. At least that is my experience.

 

[craigsphillips]

You could use a 240 volt rated element and feed it 120 volts for 1/4 the rated wattage.

Kladue, maybe you could help me understand this idea. I get confused, because my house is 120V power. What size element would you use and how do you calculate to 1/4 the rated wattage. You guys must be electrical engineers or something.

 

[klyph]

Kladue, maybe you could help me understand this idea. I get confused, because my house is 120V power. What size element would you use and how do you calculate to 1/4 the rated wattage. You guys must be electrical engineers or something.

If you take a 4500w 240v element, and run it at 120v, it will run as 1125w. That is my understanding anyway.

 

[craigsphillips]

It won't heat the wort in any time soon. It is designed to maintain heated wort at a steady mash temperature, which is does very well. If you want to heat to substantial temperatures, 1200 watts probably won't do it. I know that 1500 watts won't. To heat, you probably need 220v elements. At least that is my experience.

Thanks, Reelale. I was only looking for this element to maintain wort temperatures, and curious to know if it will accomplish this task. I expect to direct fire the mash tun when needing to raise the temperature of the mash any substantial amount, although I don't expect to have to because I don't step mash.

 

[pickles]

craigsphillips - you need to read the thread title Electrical Primer. It sounds to me like you are entering an area that you have little or no knowledge of and that will get you or someone hurt really quickly. There are alot of nuances that come with electrcity. Its not just on or off like gas. I have an all electric system and spent almost a year researching and building it. Good luck!

 

[craigsphillips]

craigsphillips - you need to read the thread title Electrical Primer. It sounds to me like you are entering an area that you have little or no knowledge of and that will get you or someone hurt really quickly. There are alot of nuances that come with electrcity. Its not just on or off like gas. I have an all electric system and spent almost a year researching and building it. Good luck!

Pickles - I will look up the thread and read it. Your concerns are appreciated. I've been researching this set up for months, but I'm just about ready to buy my components and wanted to be sure the pieces I already have are compatible with ones that I'm looking to buy. I've got the ability and experience necessary to build and assemble the system, just needed a little help making sure I have compatible components. Thanks for your concerns and I'll read the post you've recommended.

 

[kladue]

While the controller is rated at 10 Amps it would be better in the long run to spend a bit more and go with a SSR to carry the heavy loads of the element. This will make it much less likely to have problems when you try to tun the relay and the controller connectors at rated amperage and have a not quite tight enough connection heat up and and burn up the controller. If it were my choice I would look at the SSR output controller models and a SSR with a heat sink, this will give you more control method choices now rather than finding out later that the relay output is not what you need. As to the water heater elements, when the voltage is reduced 50% the wattage is reduced to 25% of original rating, 4500 watts @240 volts = 1125 Watts @120 volts. When looking for the heating elements look for the most element length you can find as surface temperature on the element is a function of surface area to dissipate heat, longer element equals lower surface temperature.

 

[newrbrewer]

Moved to new post

 

[jerryalan]

I purchased all of the parts listed in the original post except I went with the 1.5" SS tubing. I'm getting ready to wire everything together and am wondering if the power cord can be 14 gauge or if it need to be heavier. Also wondering about the internal wiring size.

Thanks!

 

[jerryalan]

I purchased all of the parts listed in the original post except I went with the 1.5" SS tubing. I'm getting ready to wire everything together and am wondering if the power cord can be 14 gauge or if it need to be heavier. Also wondering about the internal wiring size.

Sorry, I found exactly what I was looking for in the Electric Primer

I found this extension cord on Harbor Freight's website. It's a 12 gauge cord but it says it's only rated for 15 amps. Could this be because of the plugs? Perhaps I can cut off the plugs and solder 20 amp plugs to the ends?

 

[paledragon]

for short runs of wire, 12 gauge can carry 20 amps. when you get into longer runs (e.g. an extension cord), you need to start derating the current carrying capacity of the wire. that's why there are 15 amp plugs on it.

when i had a herms system, i bought a 12 gauge extension cord and chopped it into smaller chunks (<10 feet) to run the heating elements. also, you don't have to solder plugs on. if you take a trip to lowes or home depot, check out the replacement plugs. you can just screw the wires in place.

p.d.

 

[jerryalan]

for short runs of wire, 12 gauge can carry 20 amps. when you get into longer runs (e.g. an extension cord), you need to start derating the current carrying capacity of the wire. that's why there are 15 amp plugs on it.

Thanks paledragon. Looking at the HB site I see that even their 10 foot cord is rated for 15 amps. I need to measure the distance from my kitchen 20 amp outlet to the brewing area in my garage but I'm going to need at least 25 feet for sure. Should I be looking for 10 gauge instead for that distance?

 

[Sawdustguy]

Thanks paledragon. Looking at the HB site I see that even their 10 foot cord is rated for 15 amps. I need to measure the distance from my kitchen 20 amp outlet to the brewing area in my garage but I'm going to need at least 25 feet for sure. Should I be looking for 10 gauge instead for that distance?

A larger gauge certainly is not going to hurt you.

 

[Reelale]

Thanks paledragon. Looking at the HB site I see that even their 10 foot cord is rated for 15 amps. I need to measure the distance from my kitchen 20 amp outlet to the brewing area in my garage but I'm going to need at least 25 feet for sure. Should I be looking for 10 gauge instead for that distance?

FWIW, I'm running a 120vac element and a march pump on a 15 amp GFCI circuit, and I have not tripped the breaker once in 4 brews. I know it's pushing the envelope for amperage, but it's working for me.