First time PID user

[user 345769]

Good morning, everybody.

I am currently in the process of building a drying cabinet, low-temp kiln. So far, I have been able to achieve a temperature of about 120°C. I am using a 240V stovetop burner, specifically the Lg 3000w one, for the project. I intend to upgrade to a higher quality burner, but for now, the current setup works well. Now, onto my question.

I have purchased the following components:
- Inkbird PID Temperature Controllers Thermostat ITC-106VH with K Sensor
- Aluminium Heat Sink
- 25A DA Solid State Relay 100ACV - 240ACV

I have connected everything to the PID and the solid state relay (SSR), except for pin 2 on the SSR. I have attached photos for reference.

At the moment, pin 9 and 10 are connected to my 240V output, and I have successfully connected my thermocouple. Additionally, my PID is wired to the SSR, and the SSR is connected to the heatsink with thermal paste and grounded. I connected the neutral line to pin one on the SSR and added a pigtail from pin 10 of the PID to pin 1 of the SSR, allowing for only 120V.

My main issue is how to connect both the neutral and hot lines to the SSR to achieve 240V output in order to run my burner. Simply connecting both lines to pin one of the SSR raises questions about power distribution. I can't split the power to pins 9 and 10 of the PID simultaneously as that would result in 240V going into both pins. So, I need to figure out how to connect the 240V line to my SSR and PID to enable me to connect my burner element and have the PID control the temperature as intended.

While I can do this manually for now, my ultimate goal is to attach a computer to monitor the heating process and replicate it consistently. I must admit that I'm not an expert in electricity, and I have a healthy respect for it given my past experiences. Any assistance in getting my system to work would be greatly appreciated. Once everything is working as intended, I plan to create an enclosure for the entire setup. Thank you in advance for any advice or corrections.

 

[Broken Crow]

Good morning, everybody.

I am currently in the process of building a drying cabinet, low-temp kiln. So far, I have been able to achieve a temperature of about 120°C. I am using a 240V stovetop burner, specifically the Lg 3000w one, for the project. I intend to upgrade to a higher quality burner, but for now, the current setup works well. Now, onto my question.

I have purchased the following components:
- Inkbird PID Temperature Controllers Thermostat ITC-106VH with K Sensor
- Aluminium Heat Sink
- 25A DA Solid State Relay 100ACV - 240ACV

I have connected everything to the PID and the solid state relay (SSR), except for pin 2 on the SSR. I have attached photos for reference.

At the moment, pin 9 and 10 are connected to my 240V output, and I have successfully connected my thermocouple. Additionally, my PID is wired to the SSR, and the SSR is connected to the heatsink with thermal paste and grounded. I connected the neutral line to pin one on the SSR and added a pigtail from pin 10 of the PID to pin 1 of the SSR, allowing for only 120V.

My main issue is how to connect both the neutral and hot lines to the SSR to achieve 240V output in order to run my burner. Simply connecting both lines to pin one of the SSR raises questions about power distribution. I can't split the power to pins 9 and 10 of the PID simultaneously as that would result in 240V going into both pins. So, I need to figure out how to connect the 240V line to my SSR and PID to enable me to connect my burner element and have the PID control the temperature as intended.

While I can do this manually for now, my ultimate goal is to attach a computer to monitor the heating process and replicate it consistently. I must admit that I'm not an expert in electricity, and I have a healthy respect for it given my past experiences. Any assistance in getting my system to work would be greatly appreciated. Once everything is working as intended, I plan to create an enclosure for the entire setup. Thank you in advance for any advice or corrections.

Hey there fellow Canuck! First: Thanks for the pic! Reminds me of the literal breadboard I tested my own Inkbird 106VH with.
Second: My apologies for not responding earlier. Normally this sort of thing is right up my alley, but for brain-injury reasons I've had a few weeks of extra difficulty in processing simple wiring and I tend to avoid giving wiring advice when I'm like this. Hopefully this bump will help get you some answers.... all I can see is that something is 'wrong' or at least less than ideal, but I've only got fog at the moment trying to sort it out. Given that you're highly motivated, you may have already dicovered for yourself, the many threads, particularly those answered by our esteemed @doug293cz with detailed explanations and schematics for just about every configuration of controller. If you haven't yet, here's a few threads to look over:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/search/8472609/?q=simple+controller&c[users]=doug293cz&o=relevance
Though now that I've tagged him, he might stop by with some sound advice.

 

[user 345769]

@Broken Crow i was beginning to think I my question was to confusing lol. no I have not found any answers to my dilemma unfortunately. I am still reading, watching youtube, and i still having trouble understanding schematics and still no luck but the unit as a whole is looking good and working nicely on manual lol. Thank you for the link
thanks for taking the time to reply.

 

[doug293cz]

Greetings. Sorry for the slow reply, but I have been under the weather this past week, and not particularly motivated to do much of anything.

At the moment, pin 9 and 10 are connected to my 240V output, and I have successfully connected my thermocouple. Additionally, my PID is wired to the SSR, and the SSR is connected to the heatsink with thermal paste and grounded. I connected the neutral line to pin one on the SSR and added a pigtail from pin 10 of the PID to pin 1 of the SSR, allowing for only 120V.

Terminals 9 and 10 on the PID are power inputs, and should be connected to your power source (power outlet on the wall.) Using the term "output" w.r.t. these connections is incorrect. The PID can operate from either 120V AC or 240V AC. So, if you have 240V power input, you can connect one of the terminals to neutral, and the other to one of the hot legs, to operate at 120V. Or, you can attach the two hot legs, each to a different terminal, and operate at 240V. The operating voltage of the PID is independent of the operating voltage of the heating element - you can operate the PID at 120V and the element at 240V, or the other way around. In your case, it would be easiest to operate both at 240V, so that you don't even need to connect the neutral wire to anything.

It sounds like the two wires you have connected to terminal 1 of the SSR are shorting together neutral and one of the hot legs! This is dangerous, and will not work. It should cause your circuit breaker to trip as soon as you apply power.

My main issue is how to connect both the neutral and hot lines to the SSR to achieve 240V output in order to run my burner. Simply connecting both lines to pin one of the SSR raises questions about power distribution. I can't split the power to pins 9 and 10 of the PID simultaneously as that would result in 240V going into both pins. So, I need to figure out how to connect the 240V line to my SSR and PID to enable me to connect my burner element and have the PID control the temperature as intended.

As mentioned above, if you want to operate the element at 240V, then there should be no neutral connection to the SSR or element. I will draw up a simple schematic of wiring that will work for your application. It will have a couple of additional components that I believe are must haves for any high current power control system.

The first is a mechanical power switch for the element power that isolates both voltage and current (SSRs do not isolate voltage, and leak current when off.) There are two reasons for having this switch:

1. If you plug the control panel cord into the power outlet, there is a good chance that the element will come on immediately at full power (depending on the state of the PID when you power up.) This can cause arcing between the plug blades and the power outlet, scaring you and damaging the plug/outlet. You want to be able to power up the PID and configure it, before any power can be applied to the element.
2. SSRs tend to fail in the "ON" state (either temporarily or permanently), and in the case of an SSR stuck on, you want another way to disconnect the power to shut things down. Shutting down by pulling the plug at the outlet will also result in arcing and the negative effects stated above.

The second added component is an "Element Firing" indicator lamp wired in parallel with the element. This lamp will let you know if the element is actually getting power, and can tip you off to an SSR that is stuck ON. Neither the output LED on the PID, nor the LED on the SSR, provide any useful information if the SSR has failed. There is a quirk associated with an Element Firing LED - it will always light up if you try to operate/test the control panel if the element is not connected. This is due the the SSR current leakage mentioned earlier.

Need a few pieces of information from you before I do the diagram:

• What is the maximum rated element power that you want to control?
• What is the current rating of the circuit breaker on the circuit connected to the outlet you will be using?
• Do you want to make use of the alarm relay on the PID, and if so, for what?

Brew on

 

[user 345769]

@doug293cz thanks for your response and no need to apologize we all have our own lives.
But I do need to apologize because I think some of my wording is incorrect as I am no electrician by any means let alone any one who has that kind of knowledge and terminology so I kind of just use what makes sense so again I apologize for any confusion That my post might have had.

Just for clarification when you are talking about hot leg and neutral that is a 120 volt system correct? As in my case both those lines are connected directly to a breaker See below.


So I understand that my plug is not the output in this case it's the input from how I'm understanding what you said.
so for my power supply I have a 30 amp breaker x2 hot (black) and neutral (White) wires are individually connected to each 30amp breaker Now I did not do this wiring originally this was done about five years ago by certified electrician. all I did was swap out the wire for a longer wire I'm currently running a 10 gauge 3 wire one neutral one hot one ground white black and green for me.
when you look at my photos number 1011 Where I'm holding my pid you'll see that on the left hand side of my thumb is my thermalcouple and by my index finger at the top is pin 7,8,9 and 10, I have pin 7,8 connected to the ssr with the polarity is correct as i have Positive to positive and negative to negative.

"It sounds like the two wires you have connected to terminal 1 of the SSR are shorting together neutral and one of the hot legs! This is dangerous, and will not work. It should cause your circuit breaker to trip as soon as you apply power."

The two wires that you see coming from the SSR one comes from my supply side the 240 volts which technically I guess in this scenario is only 124 as I only connected one of the power lines from the 240 Volt plug and the other one that's connected to that same SSR was going to the pid it was a pigtail I guess you could call it or a jumper wire so I didn't have to run another wire from my block at the back where I had my power coming in if that makes sense. Also when I did check my voltmeter As I only had pin one connected on the ssr I had 124 volts on the ac side on the dc side I had 24 volts that would fluctuate And the red light or orange light that's on the ssr was lit.

I then connected my 240 Volt plug with the white wire to pin 9 and black wire to pin 10 Each one of these wires is carrying 124 volts again I'm no electrician so I can only tell you what I see and what i read on my voltmeter.
I connected in the same photo the Orange Wire which I labeled the pigtail that went to pin one on the ssr which can handle the 124 or the 240 volts Also in one of my photos you'll see a blue wire going to the SSR that is 1 124v Connection whereas I believe I need 240 going into the SSR to control my element. I guess to your question.
unfortunately I do not know what the maximum rated power for this element is, from what I've read online it's about 3500 watts i'm using an old stove element at this time due to money constraints and I can't really find a element that I don't have to put into water because most elements I find are for either a boil Kettle or for hot water tank but I am waiting on some replies from an American and a Japanese manufacturer that deals with elements for metal smelting furnaces which I know is probably overkill I won't ever put that much energy through my system so I'm thinking 3500 watts max But I'm not exactly sure how to test that I've never really done that before I'm very leery when I'm around AC power so even using my meter and the probes my brain doesn't stop wondering if I'm going to get shot backwards 20 feet Lol I know that is probably an extreme Thought but I'm a ***** when it comes to electricity.

I have disconnected everything as I've been working on my project over the weekend and have installed everything into my backboard ready for rewiring I did rewire my thermal couple and my ssr but have left my power lines the 240 volt

• What is the maximum rated element power that you want to control?
• What is the current rating of the circuit breaker on the circuit connected to the outlet you will be using?
• Do you want to make use of the alarm relay on the PID, and if so, for what?

Current rating of my breakers x2 @30 amps each
And yes I do want to use the alarm feature so that for whatever reason if my high alarm goes off it will cut the power to the element At least that's how I understood the Youtuber that was talking about it. I have not setup a pid before so this is still very new to me Plus the manual doesn't really describe what all of these options and features do but I figured I'll worry about that after I get the electrical aspect working.

one thing I did notice on my pid that I do have it set to auto and it does say run on it and I have played around with the alarm settings And they have gone off the high alarm the low alarm And there's another alarm but not sure what it's called at least on this model Currently no piezo connected to it yet But I'm not sure if I need a DC or AC Version and figured I'd wait until I talk to someone a little bit more about this.
I hope I answered your questions and made some clarifications please feel free to drop me a line if you need some more clarifications or want more photos.
Again for your reply have a great day enjoy

 

[user 345769]

I thought I’d include this photo of my re-doing of my installation. This is what I’ve done so far. Hope it helps.

 

[Broken Crow]

I have a 30 amp breaker x2

That's just dual 120V breakers possibly supplying the same 2 120V legs. Take a look at the breakers for your stove or dryer; A 240 breaker is a dual-pole (and double wide one)
Disclaimer: I get really annoyed when manufacturers ignore peer-juried and agreed upon Standards and from what I can see in the picture looks like a NEMA 10-50 plug which actually is rated for 240V, but the wires are those of a 120V cord: 240 three-wire cords have the green ground, 1 Black Hot (Phase 1) and 1 Red Hot Phase 2). The cord in your picture indicates green ground, Black Hot, White Neutral which means it is a 120V cord. It could well be delivering two hot legs and a ground, but the colours are not Code-Compliant and if they're from 2 separate 120V breakers, they may well be the same phase.
Dealing with the SSR alone and ignoring the control signal; You connect Hot (1, Black or Red) to pin 1 and for a 120V setup, White (neutral) goes straight to one leg of the element, for a 240V setup the other Hot (Red or Black) goes to this leg.
Do you have the Inkbird ITC-106VH manual? It has a brief wiring diagram that may help.

 

[user 345769]

Take a look at the breakers

Here is my breaker panel and my plug I hope this helps

 

[user 345769]

well I got all my power connected and everything turns on, now I can set up my PID internal setup to have my burner turn on and off now. Ya so happy I finally figured it out.

Thank you @Broken Crow
I had to decipher some of what you had to say a lot of the being terminology and the lack of standardization between governing bodies and training, but I think I did get the gist of what you're saying because now everything turns on as intended.

 

[Broken Crow]

Sorry I haven't been more useful... I should have mentioned that if you're looking at youtube vids; At least half of them are truly dangerous. Here's a link to a guy who knows his stuff and explains it well:

There is one other detail that might be of concern; It sounds like you bought the inkbird/ssr/heatsink/probe package that is popular on ebay and amazon.. The stubby K-type temp probe that ships with it might not give an entirely accurate reading for the full area inside your cabinet. When it comes time to test your setup, I'd advise using a separate known-accurate temp probe or thermometer to check the actual area where the malt will be (as the stubby probe will be stuck to the wall). You might want to get a longer probe that extends out into the area of action. Probably the best and most reliable ones that are easily available come from Florida dealer Auber Instruments (and you'll want the PT100 RTD type..faster and more accurate):
https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=20_131
Being in Canada and not wanting to pay shipping and duty, I bought probes from ebay, aliexpress and amazon but found them less reliable than the vetted ones I gave in and bought from Auber...caveat emptor.
In any event; Can you draw a quick schematic of take a couple more detailed pics? (If we keep bumping this thread, you'll probably get more useful insights and advice than I'm able to offer )

 

[doug293cz]

Here is my breaker panel and my plug I hope this helps

You have a typical 240V breaker arrangement of two single pole breakers mechanically tied together to create what is effectively a dual pole breaker. The mechanical coupling makes it so that if one of the breakers overloads and trips, it also switches off the other breaker of the pair. Vertically adjacent breaker slots in the load panel always connect to opposite phase busses, so that if you pair any two adjacent single pole breakers, you get opposite phases, and will have 240V between the two wires connected to the breakers (as compared to 120V between ground/neutral and the hot wire of any single pole breaker.) So, that breaker pair is appropriate for your application.

Looks like you have a NEMA 6-30 plug and receptacle:

This plug/receptacle pair is appropriate for 30A at 240V. It is less common than the NEMA 10-30, which is commonly found on dryer power cords. Since it appears to be a commercially made cord (molded plug), I'm surprised that the hot wires are white and black, rather than red and black. Standards say white wires should be the neutral conductor, but with a 6-30, there is no neutral wire present. North American 240V wiring normally uses black for one hot phase and red for the other hot phase. Where did you get this cord?

Brew on

 

[user 345769]

@Broken Crow

Sorry I haven't been more useful... I should have mentioned that if you're looking at youtube vids; At least half of them are truly dangerous. Here's a link to a guy who knows his stuff and explains it well:

There is one other detail that might be of concern; It sounds like you bought the inkbird/ssr/heatsink/probe package that is popular on ebay and amazon.. The stubby K-type temp probe that ships with it might not give an entirely accurate reading for the full area inside your cabinet. When it comes time to test your setup, I'd advise using a separate known-accurate temp probe or thermometer to check the actual area where the malt will be (as the stubby probe will be stuck to the wall). You might want to get a longer probe that extends out into the area of action. Probably the best and most reliable ones that are easily available come from Florida dealer Auber Instruments (and you'll want the PT100 RTD type..faster and more accurate):
https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=20_131
Being in Canada and not wanting to pay shipping and duty, I bought probes from ebay, aliexpress and amazon but found them less reliable than the vetted ones I gave in and bought from Auber...caveat emptor.
In any event; Can you draw a quick schematic of take a couple more detailed pics? (If we keep bumping this thread, you'll probably get more useful insights and advice than I'm able to offer )

oh no, you all have been helpful even if i got more confused at times.
and yes I've been watching George from Barley and Hops on Youtube where the link you provided, i been watching him for several years and I have been looking at him about my PID Some of the things I could not see in his youtube that made come to the forum. I'm currently watching him today about setting up my PID internal settings. Yes I got mine from Amazon.Ca I know Amazon kind of sucks for the quality of the things that they sell unfortunately if you want something good quality you have to pay a little extra and not buy from Amazon, I will look at the link you provided I am currently not using the provided thermal couple that came with the inkbird pid I have a different one that I actually purchased separately several years ago that was for my stir plates. yeah and George as well said the pt100 would be a better thermal couple to get, I will be getting 4 as I do have another don't think it's a pid but it has four channels for my thermal couples as my box can hold two shelves and I want to know what each shelves temperature is as well as Bottom temperature and exhaust temperature might be overkill but I like to be in the know. Yeah I'll include some more photos this afternoon When I get home from work, i'll give you guys a full run down of everything I've done and it's pretty much finished other than just some wiring one of my switches terminal screws stripped out so I could not use it so I'm currently waiting for a new one in the mail It'll arrive tomorrow. you said you request a drawn of a quick schematic i'm not sure really how to do that but I can give you photos .


@doug293cz

This plug/receptacle pair is appropriate for 30A at 240V. It is less common than the NEMA 10-30, which is commonly found on dryer power cords. Since it appears to be a commercially made cord (molded plug), I'm surprised that the hot wires are white and black, rather than red and black. Standards say white wires should be the neutral conductor, but with a 6-30, there is no neutral wire present. North American 240V wiring normally uses black for one hot phase and red for the other hot phase. Where did you get this cord?

Well for some conversations I've had with some electricians that have been around my house lately I actually brought that question up about the red black and white and their reasoning is is that the red is usually for stuff that comes directly from outside to the breaker box and they could not really answer why the electrical cables we buy from Home Depot , Rona and whatever are black and white with just a bare copper ground wire but they usually chop it up to lack of standardization. I do understand that white is neutral, Black is hot, green is ground. So the cable that you're asking about I actually got it from my old Brazila that I bought from kegland along time ago that died during COVID so instead of just throwing it all out I removed all those electronics kept what I wanted and I did BAIB for a while until I had some money saved up for my new system that's coming in. So that cord is the one electrical piece I salvaged as the rest of the Electronics/circuitry we're toast.

 

[doug293cz]

And yes I do want to use the alarm feature so that for whatever reason if my high alarm goes off it will cut the power to the element At least that's how I understood the Youtuber that was talking about it.

The alarm output is nothing more than a single pole double throw relay, with one NC (normally closed) pair of contacts, and one NO (normally open) set of contacts. When the alarm condition is not triggered, the alarm common terminal is connected to the alarm NC terminal, and when the alarm is triggered the common terminal is connected to the NO terminal. For your PID, terminal 12 is the common alarm terminal, terminal 1 is the NC terminal, and terminal 11 is the NO terminal. There are no connections to the alarm terminals internal to the PID, so whatever power is required to effect the alarm action must be supplied to one of the alarm terminals.

It might seem that the simplest way to have the over-temp condition shut off the power to the element is to connect one of the SSR control outputs to the common alarm terminal (12) and the NC terminal (1) to the SSR control input. Wouldn't matter if this was done with the positive or negative SSR control input. However, the most likely cause of an over-temp condition is that the SSR is latched (stuck) in the ON state, in which case the SSR control inputs have no effect on whether the SSR is on or off. Thus, this simple method will not work in the case of the most likely failure mode.

To get the alarm to reliably cut off power to the element (even if the SSR is latched on), you need to add a contactor (high current relay), which switches power to the SSR and element, to the circuit. I will add this to the diagram I create for you.

Brew on

 

[user 345769]

Well here it is all done. And working some what.

 

[user 345769]

Well I am returning to sender as the PID will not control diddly squat. I’m just gonna go back to analog where I don’t have any issues thanks for your help guys. I am Not wasting anymore time on POS technology.

 

[user 345769]

Well, since I've had time I drew up that schematic that was asked for oh no scar so I hope it's legible, I got rid of that POS PID that I had got a new one it's currently working well

I still think there's a few things I need to add to it, but I'm not quite sure. Internet keeps telling me that put things in between. Ie capacitor, rectifier. Just to mention a few as I don't quite understand all of what they do and why so I've just put that part on the back burner.

All the little symbols I got from the Internet so I hope they are correct.

 

[Bobby_M]

Internet keeps telling me that put things in between. Ie capacitor, rectifier

The internet is a strange place. There is no need or practical reason I can think of that you'd want to use discrete electronics like capacitors in a build that is almost entirely done with a couple modular components.

 

[user 345769]

@Bobby_M Oh my God, the Internet definitely is a strange place, It frustrates me so much sometimes.

Do you all think if I put a resistor in between my SSR and burners would that help with the leakage?

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm not sure what leakage you're talking about.

A PID and SSR combo is pretty basic. ONE of your hot wires gets routed through the SSR before continuing on to your load (the heating element). The other hot wire goes directly to the other side of the element. When the PID calls for heat (where the PV is lower than the SV that you set), it sends 12 volts DC to the SSR trigger terminals and opens up current flow through.

If you're not getting that action, either the wiring is done wrong or the PID settings are wrong.

Before you go down a rabbit hole of trying to trigger alarms, add multiple temp probes (no cheap PID supports more than one probe), it's important to get the very simple combination of PID + SSR operating as expected.

 

[user 345769]

I'm not sure what leakage you're talking about.

A PID and SSR combo is pretty basic. ONE of your hot wires gets routed through the SSR before continuing on to your load (the heating element). The other hot wire goes directly to the other side of the element. When the PID calls for heat (where the PV is lower than the SV that you set), it sends 12 volts DC to the SSR trigger terminals and opens up current flow through.

If you're not getting that action, either the wiring is done wrong or the PID settings are wrong.

Before you go down a rabbit hole of trying to trigger alarms, add multiple temp probes (no cheap PID supports more than one probe), it's important to get the very simple combination of PID + SSR operating as expected.

The PID in this scenario was not on the unit was plugged in to 240v 30amp with a 4 pin switch as my main power cut off so I did not have to always unplug it as well and it was in the off position. Only power going in to the system from my understanding it the connections between the SSR and the burners.


Early on Thursday morning, I noticed a 2 amp draw through one of the wires connected to a burner. Initially, I thought it might be due to the cheap $15 Amazon amp meter. While I was drying some malt, I didn't feel any heat at that time and considered it to be negligible and as a precaution I increased my fan speed to high so the burners couldn't generate enough heat while I was at work. When I got home, the amp meter showed 0 Amps and the temperature range was normal, so I thought it was just a glitch that sorted itself out while I was at work. I used my volt meter at the time and it showed the expected draw.

Then, on Friday evening, as I was finishing up my dextrin malt, I turned off my system and lowered my fan speed to allow the malt to cool overnight (the fan is 120v on its own circuit). When I woke up the next morning, 8 hours later, I noticed a familiar aroma coming from my garage. To my surprise, my unit had been on all night, generating enough heat. Combined with the low fan speed, the internal temperature reached 83°C. At the same time, the cheap amp meter was now reading 9 amps, and my PID wasn't sending as the system was technically turned off from the main power. It turned out that I had forgotten to unplug my unit, and then it dawned on me that there might be a leakage. I grabbed the voltmeter and found a 124-volt draw on the AC side of the SSR, and zero draw on the 12-volt side.

 

[doug293cz]

Do you all think if I put a resistor in between my SSR and burners would that help with the leakage?

Oh hell no. Adding a resister in series with your SSR and element will just reduce the power to the element, plus the added resistor will get hot for no useful purpose. Your 3000W heating element is nothing but a 19.2 ohm resister (P = V^2 / R --> R = V^2 / P.) If you added a 10 ohm resistor in series, the total resistance would be 29.2 ohms and the total power delivered to the two load resistors would be 240^2 / 29.2 = 1972.6 W. The current would be V / R = 240 / 29.2 = 8.22 A. We can then use P = I^2 * R to determine the power delivered to each load resistor individually. Your heating element will get 8.22^2 * 19.2 = 1297.3 W and your added resistor would get 8.22^2 * 10 = 675.7 W (the two powers don't quite add up to the total power due to some rounding in the calculations.)

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

The PID in this scenario was not on the unit was plugged in to 240v 30amp with a 4 pin switch as my main power cut off so I did not have to always unplug it as well and it was in the off position. Only power going in to the system from my understanding it the connections between the SSR and the burners.


Early on Thursday morning, I noticed a 2 amp draw through one of the wires connected to a burner. Initially, I thought it might be due to the cheap $15 Amazon amp meter. While I was drying some malt, I didn't feel any heat at that time and considered it to be negligible and as a precaution I increased my fan speed to high so the burners couldn't generate enough heat while I was at work. When I got home, the amp meter showed 0 Amps and the temperature range was normal, so I thought it was just a glitch that sorted itself out while I was at work. I used my volt meter at the time and it showed the expected draw.

Then, on Friday evening, as I was finishing up my dextrin malt, I turned off my system and lowered my fan speed to allow the malt to cool overnight (the fan is 120v on its own circuit). When I woke up the next morning, 8 hours later, I noticed a familiar aroma coming from my garage. To my surprise, my unit had been on all night, generating enough heat. Combined with the low fan speed, the internal temperature reached 83°C. At the same time, the cheap amp meter was now reading 9 amps, and my PID wasn't sending as the system was technically turned off from the main power. It turned out that I had forgotten to unplug my unit, and then it dawned on me that there might be a leakage. I grabbed the voltmeter and found a 124-volt draw on the AC side of the SSR, and zero draw on the 12-volt side.

Leakage thru a properly operating SSR is typically spec'ed as less than 2 mA. So, worst case with the PID not triggering the SSR on, the power to your element (19.2 ohm) would be less than 0.002^2 * 19.2 = 0.0000077 W. If your chamber is getting hot while the PID is not triggering the SSR, then your SSR has failed.

Brew on

 

[user 345769]

SSR has failed.

Oh ya I was hopping it was not another POS lol. so this would be the 2nd SSR from INKbird most of the SSR iv seen on line all look Pretty much the same other than different labels. So where can I get a good one that's not going to fail after 5 sessions?

Oh hell no.

And thanks for your input, I guess I did not fry that many brain cells when I was younger. Besides the numbers that you posted, I actually seem to understand and get what you're saying as that was kind of what I was thinking. that a resistor wouldn't be helpful. But I wanted to ask to make sure. So thanks again.

 

[doug293cz]

Oh ya I was hopping it was not another POS lol. so this would be the 2nd SSR from INKbird most of the SSR iv seen on line all look Pretty much the same other than different labels. So where can I get a good one that's not going to fail after 5 sessions?


And thanks for your input, I guess I did not fry that many brain cells when I was younger. Besides the numbers that you posted, I actually seem to understand and get what you're saying as that was kind of what I was thinking. that a resistor wouldn't be helpful. But I wanted to ask to make sure. So thanks again.

In your photo in post #14, you show your SSR mounted to a sheet of plywood. This is a big problem. SSRs generate heat when current is going thru them, and they need to be properly mounted to a heatsink that is open to air flow, or have a fan blowing across the heatsink fins. Heat is the main cause of SSR failures.

Typical voltage drop across an SSR while on is about 1.5 V, so with 240 V input, the voltage across your 19.2 ohm element would be 240 - 1.5 = 238.5 V. The current flowing will then be 238.5 / 19.2 = 12.4 A. 12.4 A at a voltage drop of 1.5 V gives power dissipation in the SSR as 12.4 * 1.5 =18.6 W. I used to have a 15 W soldering iron, which (naturally) got hot enough to melt solder, and that is more than hot enough to kill an SSR.

One of the best SSR brands is Crydom, but they can be pricey. You can get a reasonable quality SSR from Auber Instruments, but I don't know the ins and outs of ordering from Canada. Mager is also a pretty good bet, and you can find them on eBay.

Brew on

 

[user 345769]

heatsink

Oh, I have a heatsink its mounted to the backboard and the heatsink to the SSR with thermal paste, the photo was straight on to see it.
I have new wire coming in today so I will rewire/cleaning with just to colors and continuous lengths, no splits in between.

Typical voltage drop across an SSR while on is about 1.5 V, so with 240 V input

Is it just referring to all of the power that my unit is using or just my elements?
If it's just for my elements were would I put the new inline 240V Volt/Amp display should I connect in series and if so what side of the circuit? SSR or hot side?
My elements are running in parallel at this moment.

I did have some Volt meters problems as well and the new one is coming in today, as the Explanation about the power droppage. I never experienced when I was testing connection points. except for at the SSR. So maybe my old voltmeter was having some problems as it's like or was 20 years old. if it helps I can record the info and post it here.

SSR brands is Crydom,

Well, they may be pricey but I'm tired having to order something from Amazon every two to three weeks and just get it replaced. So thank you for the link. I will be taking a look at them here shortly.

 

[user 345769]

Found this 80 bucks not as bad as I was expecting

 

[doug293cz]

Found this 80 bucks not as bad as I was expecting

The linked SSR is only rated for 10A and your load draws a nominal 12.5A. At a minimum I would recommend a current rating of 25A, and a voltage rating of 480V.

Brew on

 

[user 345769]

The linked SSR is only rated for 10A and your load draws a nominal 12.5A. At a minimum I would recommend a current rating of 25A, and a voltage rating of 480V.

Brew on

lol yep so it is

found this DUAL SOLID STATE RELAY, SURFACE MOUNTED, 25 A MAX OUTPUT CURRENT, SCR, 240VAC OUTPUT
As the 480v is a bit difficult to find the moment at least for the sites. I’m looking at not to mention the price point.

​

​

 

[Broken Crow]

I apologize for not being more useful here.. I probably should have begun by providing some "Basics of SSR buying & use" information: If you had a bad 'Inkbird' branded SSR, then it's likely the seller was not Inkbird, but a third party selling counterfeit SSRs. Probably 60% of the SSRs with reputable names on them that you can buy online from amazon, aliexpress or ebay are fakes; In practice, it is common practice to over-rate the SSR, getting one that can carry about twice the current it's expected to handle. Unethical sellers are aware of this and label 10A SSRs as '20A' and so on, often selling factory rejects as well. Inkbird maintains thier own amazon store, so it's generally safe to buy as long as they are listed as the seller. Of course there are far more reputable brands carried by the likes of DigiKey, Mouser (and in Canada https://www.e-sonic.com/en/ )
Although these do come at a price premium. I have the 40A inkbird myself for an HLT controller and it performs flawlessly. I did however, want to get something with a north-american approval and bought a couple of the UL-certified 40A SSRs fro Auber and I made it worth the reasonable shipping and duty by buying temp probes and temp probe wires while I was at it.
Here's the reasonably priced 40A one I got: https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_30&products_id=980 They also have a UL-listed 25A one if you want to go that way: https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_30&products_id=1031
You may want to look around their site, support forum, and some of the product documentation as this kiln of yours is the sort of reason their whole business exists.
Hope this is some help.

 

[Bobby_M]

Well here it is all done. And working some what.

It's really hard to troubleshoot wiring with so many mixed wire types and conductor colors. Like, even at the main power entrance terminals, you switch the white and black wires on the way to the power switch. I know what I'm doing and I'd still get all turned around with that many color changes. The two hots in a 240v setup are called L1 and L2. Usually L1 is black and L2 is red though using pre-made 3-wire cables will often use white as L2. If you end up having to switch wire colors at a splice, it best to convert an L2 white to L2 red and NOT black. Black will always track in my mind as L1.

I don't recommend using the wire terminals on the back of the PID as a way to splice high current connections. I don't LOVE wire nuts, but that's a much better way to join larger gauge wires with a small gauge tap wire. If you really want to use a terminal to do it, it would be better to run the larger wire directly to the SSR terminal and then stack a ring terminal to supply the voltage to the PID.

One issue you have is that your manual power switch is AFTER the L1 splice to your heating element. In other words, even with the switch off, the L1 is connected to the element. It's a little safer to have EVERYTHING as downstream of the switch as possible.


Be careful! This kind of open exposed wiring is one "oops I let my guard down" away from tragedy.

 

[user 345769]

I apologize for not being more useful here.. I probably should have begun by providing some "Basics of SSR buying & use" information: If you had a bad 'Inkbird' branded SSR, then it's likely the seller was not Inkbird, but a third party selling counterfeit SSRs. Probably 60% of the SSRs with reputable names on them that you can buy online from amazon, aliexpress or ebay are fakes; In practice, it is common practice to over-rate the SSR, getting one that can carry about twice the current it's expected to handle. Unethical sellers are aware of this and label 10A SSRs as '20A' and so on, often selling factory rejects as well. Inkbird maintains thier own amazon store, so it's generally safe to buy as long as they are listed as the seller. Of course there are far more reputable brands carried by the likes of DigiKey, Mouser (and in Canada https://www.e-sonic.com/en/ )
Although these do come at a price premium. I have the 40A inkbird myself for an HLT controller and it performs flawlessly. I did however, want to get something with a north-american approval and bought a couple of the UL-certified 40A SSRs fro Auber and I made it worth the reasonable shipping and duty by buying temp probes and temp probe wires while I was at it.
Here's the reasonably priced 40A one I got: https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_30&products_id=980 They also have a UL-listed 25A one if you want to go that way: https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_30&products_id=1031
You may want to look around their site, support forum, and some of the product documentation as this kiln of yours is the sort of reason their whole business exists.
Hope this is some help.

I did find a Crydom 480v 25 DUAL SOLID STATE RELAY locally for $164can plus shipping, I'm only looking at the dual as I have two burners running off the 1 output on the current SSR. I did pick an Inkbird from their store on amazon but unfortunately, the SSRs are just Chinese-made garbage. I may be a Canuck but I prefer to buy USA or Canada-made way before Chinese-made garbage but this is amazon for you. Too many times I've talked with amazon customer service about them selling crap but as they don't seem to care in the end as most of what comes out of their lips is just a script. As the saying goes if they will buy it, we will make it no matter how crappy it is. and thank you input and links I will be looking at them later today.

It's really hard to troubleshoot wiring with so many mixed wire types and conductor colors. Like, even at the main power entrance terminals, you switch the white and black wires on the way to the power switch. I know what I'm doing and I'd still get all turned around with that many color changes. The two hots in a 240v setup are called L1 and L2. Usually L1 is black and L2 is red though using pre-made 3-wire cables will often use white as L2. If you end up having to switch wire colors at a splice, it best to convert an L2 white to L2 red and NOT black. Black will always track in my mind as L1.

I don't recommend using the wire terminals on the back of the PID as a way to splice high current connections. I don't LOVE wire nuts, but that's a much better way to join larger gauge wires with a small gauge tap wire. If you really want to use a terminal to do it, it would be better to run the larger wire directly to the SSR terminal and then stack a ring terminal to supply the voltage to the PID.

One issue you have is that your manual power switch is AFTER the L1 splice to your heating element. In other words, even with the switch off, the L1 is connected to the element. It's a little safer to have EVERYTHING as downstream of the switch as possible.


Be careful! This kind of open exposed wiring is one "oops I let my guard down" away from tragedy.

ya, that was an old post as I have redone it and I am redoing all my wiring today or tomorrow just waiting on new red/black 12awg wire I do have 10awg but I'm thinking that might be a bit too big. I have realigned my lines to match the colours ie. white to white black to black and with the new wire coming it will be red instead of white and with no brakes.
So you don't recommend wire terminals, So would it be better to just solder the ends of the wire and insert them accordingly? I do have a bunch of ring terminals large and small.
I have also redone my switches where the main power now cuts off the main power, my other switch is connected to my elements, so it turns off my elements only and is Separate from the main power and my main power can stay on and the ssr will not be able to send power to the elements, thanks to the switch is working but I will still be replacing the SSR as it is still leaking.

Be careful! This kind of open exposed wiring is one "oops I let my guard down" away from tragedy.

LOL oh ya I had a couple of oopses, had my old volt meter pop in my hand and blew the main breaker to the house and every thing in between Scared, the living crap outta me; there is enough energy that it literally melted my terminals on my voltmeter I have no idea what happened and I did not think 250 volts and 30 amp would have done that But something crossed and yeah, I called it a day at that moment. Went back to it the next day. Now I'm making sure everything is unplugged and discharged. Double checking, Triple checking OCD moment. Especially with my new meter is always picking up a little bit of energy from what I Manuel says It's background noise But that's a different topic.

 

[Broken Crow]

I did find a Crydom 480v 25 DUAL SOLID STATE RELAY locally for $164can plus shipping, I'm only looking at the dual as I have two burners running off the 1 output on the current SSR.

Sorry again! I hadn't realized that you had 2 elements...What is the total current load? BTW; you can connect the elements in series and just get a single SSR providing for the total load. Honesty, I've ordered from Auber and shipping and duty to Canada even with the extra parts I got along with 2 UL-listed 40A SSRs was significantly less than the price of a single Crydom (which if I recall correctly though I might not; Is itself made in China and commonly faked, though digi-key will have genuine ones) bought domestically.

 

[user 345769]

Sorry again! I hadn't realized that you had 2 element

no need to apologize the second element was just hooked up about a week and a half ago. It hadn't really posted any information about it. other than the little diagram I drew and posted last week, which that diagram is obsolete because I've already changed. wiring locations and whatnot as parts have come in, I will try to upload a new photo of my back panel once it's all done Hopefully it'll be done in a day or two I just have to get the motivation. I was unaware that I could run them in series. I've been running them in parallel. And when you're saying that was an overload. my voltmeter never showed anything over the 240 volt. But I'm assuming that doesn't account for the draw from the unit itself only the draw within the wire correct? I am nowhere as close to being considered an electrician in any sense. I'm just an DYI'er that attempts to try everything, anything she can put her hands on. And yes, at the risk of hurting herself lol just because I am so accident-prone.

 

[Broken Crow]

But I'm assuming that doesn't account for the draw from the unit itself only the draw within the wire correct?

Correct..it's the current draw in Amps we need to see. I have to apologize again: Before brain-injury, with everything I ever worked on I had a complete cognitive 3D model of it running in my head with full specs at every point, but I can only work now from the memory of having done so many times before and no longer have the actual knowledge or math or complex image to work through... I'm pretty sure parallel is just fine and possibly better than in series, but still: it is the total load that matters most. As Bobby said above though: Ideally you want a main power switch that shuts off ALL current. As to another detail: The temp-probe: You said you had the K-type which sounds like the stubby one from the popular Inkbird package which means it will be mounted close to the wall of the chamber...definitely not ideal! You really do want a temp probe that extends into the 'area-of-action'...this is another good reason to make yourself relax a bit and take the time to look at all the details, and perhaps consider the cheaper but perfectly proven-reliable SSR from Auber and while on the site take a look at the more accurate PT-100 RTD probes which are available there in lengths to accomodate getting it where it needs to be.

 

[doug293cz]

If you put 2 3000W elements in parallel, you get 6000W total, but if you put them in series, you only get 1500W total. So, series is a no-no if you are adding elements to get more power.

Brew on

 

[Bobby_M]

You also don't need a dual channel SSR unless you plan to try to control each element separately (e.g. one element on and one off) or if you need to power each element from its own circuit breaker. I don't think you're trying to do either of those.

I highly recommend using an ohm meter to see what the resistance of those elements are so you can verify what your total current draw is going to be.

There is no reason to spend more than $25 on a 40amp SSR.

 

[user 345769]

If you put 2 3000W elements in parallel, you get 6000W total, but if you put them in series, you only get 1500W total. So, series is a no-no if you are adding elements to get more power.

Brew on

okay thanks for that.

would it be better to run both elements together off the same output on the current SSR (40amp 240v) or should I use a dual SSR? (dual 240v 25amp)

 

[doug293cz]

okay thanks for that.

would it be better to run both elements together off the same output on the current SSR (40amp 240v) or should I use a dual SSR? (dual 240v 25amp)

Like @Bobby_M said, I would run both elements off of the same SSR. What is the rated power (W @ V) for each element?

Brew on

 

[Broken Crow]

If you put 2 3000W elements in parallel, you get 6000W total, but if you put them in series, you only get 1500W total. So, series is a no-no if you are adding elements to get more power.

Brew on

Thank you!! That's why I try to refrain from commenting in these threads... I make risky mistakes!
@Miss Blueberry Hoppy ; This is a truly worthy project, but please; Slow down and take your time...Don't jump to conclusions and buy or return parts until you've fully understood each step. You've got two of the best authorities on the subject weighing in here and I'm not one of them! In years to come, other prospective maltsters will be looking to this thread for guidance.

 

[user 345769]

Like @Bobby_M said, I would run both elements off of the same SSR. What is the rated power (W @ V) for each element?

Brew on

Each are 3000w 240v. They both came from the same stove top.

Is there a way to measure the wats on my end? If so how? I have a Klein cl390 volt/amp meter if this helps