reducing "green" time in beer

[drummer4gc]

hey everyone,

i've brewed maybe 7 partial mash beers, and i'm just jumping into all grain. all of my beers have been tasty, and they have all had a period of about 2-3 weeks in bottles (after 3 weeks in a fermenter) where they tasted green before they started tasting good. most people say this is typical. however, i have been reading the forum a lot and come across people that are fermenting their beers in 10-14 days, force carbing for 3-5 days, and then drinking their beer.

my questions is, how is this beer not green? can you reduce the "greenness" in a beer with better brewing/fermenting technique? i haven't experimented with making yeast starters yet, and i'm wondering if this would help.

any ideas about ways that i can improve my skills and technique to pump out better tasting beer in a shorter time would be much appreciated. i am especially interested in improving this for my IPAs, since I want the hops to taste as fresh as possible without any of that greenness. thanks!

 

[DMartin]

A lot of what you taste as "greenness" is under-carbonation and undissolved CO2. This is not a problem when kegging the beer. Even kegged beer tastes better after a couple weeks, though.

 

[drummer4gc]

i've kegged my last few beers though, and even after two weeks of carbing, my amber ale still tastes really green, enough that i took it out of the kegerator and put it in a room temperature closet to speed up the process. any idea why that is? this is also the first time i've done three weeks in the primary without using a secondary fermenter...but my results are turning out less than stellar so far...

 

[chumpsteak]

How's your fermentation temp control? Are you able to hold the beer at a steady temp while it ferments? Maybe what you are detecting as "green" is some off flavors from stressed yeast?

 

[drummer4gc]

it started a bit rocky (pitched a little too high, cooled off a little low the first night) but maintained 68ish after that. i used safale-05. but my temp control is not what i would like it to be....i could improve on that. thanks.

 

[dzlater]

hey everyone,

>>>>>>>>> i haven't experimented with making yeast starters yet, and i'm wondering if this would help.

any ideas about ways that i can improve my skills and technique to pump out better tasting beer in a shorter time would be much appreciated. i am especially interested in improving this for my IPAs, since I want the hops to taste as fresh as possible without any of that greenness. thanks!

Yea, a starter would probably help.
as well as temp control.

 

[RM-MN]

If possible, ferment at 62 to 65 instead of 68 and try to chill a little more before pitching. after the fast ferment is over in about a week, warm the beer up to 70 to 74 to help the yeast with the cleanup. Leaving the beer on the yeast cake seems to make the beer mature faster. Instead of a week in the fermenter and 6 weeks in the bottle, try 3 weeks in the fermenter and 2 weeks in the bottle.

 

[trent]

Pitch the correct amount of yeast.

Always pitch below 70 (I go for 65).

Use temp control / ferm chamber.

If you brew the beer correctly in the first place then the beer is way less "green."

 

[samc]

Do the steps mentioned, however you will still always have age requirements. So the answer is build a pipeline and have patience.

 

[OldWorld]

Hoppy beers like IPA and Double IPA are better forced carbonated to preserve hop freshness. But other beers like holiday spiced beers and barleywine do better with aging.

If the gravity remains the same after three weeks then it is probably stable and ready to keg off.

IPA is always better fresh...If the beer tastes green then it probably needs more time in the fermenter...2 weeks primary, 1-2 weeks dry hop then rack it off.

Be sure to properly purge the beer with CO2...and don't be affraid to wait a day after carbing to let it go into solution...Purge it good let it rest and chill for at least a day or 4 48 hours.

Undercarbed beer tastes off...and sometimes it will oxygenate.

 

[Yooper]

Pitch the correct amount of yeast.

Always pitch below 70 (I go for 65).

Use temp control / ferm chamber.

If you brew the beer correctly in the first place then the beer is way less "green."

Yep, this will do it!

I would also suggest changing yeast strains. I like S05, but it takes a long time to flocculate and clear the beer, causing a longer time for aging.

I'd try a lower fermentation temperature, a more flocculant yeast strain, and of course pitching at the proper temperature. A good way to get a good flavor profile is to actually pitch UNDER the fermentation temperature and let it rise to where you want it. In my case, I'd pitch at 60, and let it rise to 64.

If you prevent off-flavors in the first place, the beer doesn't need time to "clean up".

 

[trent]

I would also suggest changing yeast strains. I like S05, but it takes a long time to flocculate and clear the beer, causing a longer time for aging.

what's a sub for this do you think? I've switched my IPAs to San Diego super, which flocs like crazy, but I actually think it flocs too fast and leaves a residual sweetness over 05. It SDSY makes a great beer fast, but I like the dryness of 05.

 

[Malticulous]

Pitching cold and allowing the temp to go up as fermentation progresses, especially as it slows down, gets it off to a clean start, speeds it up and helps them finish strong and clean. Cold crashing just a few days after FG and then fining has really shortened my turn around times. That's about what the British have done for hundreds of year now (but they could not cold crash.) Even in writings of the early 19th century I've read of preferred pitching temperatures of 59F and letting it go over 70F by the end of the week.

 

[chumpsteak]

what's a sub for this do you think? I've switched my IPAs to San Diego super, which flocs like crazy, but I actually think it flocs too fast and leaves a residual sweetness over 05. It SDSY makes a great beer fast, but I like the dryness of 05.

I recently switched to S04 because it clears much faster than 05 and in my opinion isn't much different in hop heavy beers.

 

[trent]

I recently switched to S04 because it clears much faster than 05 and in my opinion isn't much different in hop heavy beers.

What FG changes have you seen? I keep hearing 04 finishes higher -- might as well stick to SDSY then.

 

[chumpsteak]

I keep hitting my numbers or even a little below. My last IPA had a 1.015 target and I hit 1.014.

 

[Dgonza9]

Filtering would likely help. I filtered a batch of kolsch this summer to take a keg to a golf outing without sediment kicking up. It was a 10 gallon batch and I only filtered 5 gallons. I always felt the filtered batch conditioned much faster.

Just the one data point, but something to try if you like. In the end I went away from filtering, personally. A good cold crash works almost as well.

 

[C-Rider]

Yep, this will do it!

I would also suggest changing yeast strains. I like S05, but it takes a long time to flocculate and clear the beer, causing a longer time for aging.

I'd try a lower fermentation temperature, a more flocculant yeast strain, and of course pitching at the proper temperature. A good way to get a good flavor profile is to actually pitch UNDER the fermentation temperature and let it rise to where you want it. In my case, I'd pitch at 60, and let it rise to 64.

If you prevent off-flavors in the first place, the beer doesn't need time to "clean up".

Yooper, how do you chill down to 60 before pitching? I know you live "up north", but here in the islands I'd need to put it some sort of fridg to get it that cold. I guess I could put the unfermentd wort in my temp controlled freezer and pitch the next day. I have it set for about 62* and my brews are usually fermenting about 65*.

 

[Shockerengr]

Count me in the 10-20 days grain to glass camp. (5 weeks for a pilsner)

For me the keys are fermentation temps, and adequate pitch rates.

Both of those minimize the off products the yeast put off, and keep the turn around time quick.

For temp control I'm able to very accurately control temps using a glycol chiller, and I use a stirplate for building up yeast counts.

Yeast flocculation can be a bit of an issue if you're going for very clear, but I don't often worry too much about it, unless I feel it detracts from the beer. I do find a couple days of crash cooling will get most of the yeast out prior to the transfer.

 

[Thehopguy]

So what about a yeast like WLP001 which says to keep the temps above 70 degrees until fermentation has started and then keep within 68-73? Should this be done or still cool to 68 or below and then pitch?

 

[trent]

Yooper, how do you chill down to 60 before pitching? I know you live "up north", but here in the islands I'd need to put it some sort of fridg to get it that cold. I guess I could put the unfermentd wort in my temp controlled freezer and pitch the next day. I have it set for about 62* and my brews are usually fermenting about 65*.

I can only chill to 76 due to my tap water, so I put bucket into my ferm chamber, set to 30deg, then after 4 hours it's usually around 60-65 then pitch

 

[Shockerengr]

So what about a yeast like WLP001 which says to keep the temps above 70 degrees until fermentation has started and then keep within 68-73? Should this be done or still cool to 68 or below and then pitch?

I don't use wlp001, but us-05 or wyeast 1056....but I will often ferment those around 63-65...and usually at temp when pitching or very shortly after

 

[trent]

So what about a yeast like WLP001 which says to keep the temps above 70 degrees until fermentation has started and then keep within 68-73? Should this be done or still cool to 68 or below and then pitch?

Hey, I am not an expert, but I am going to take a stab at this.

WL states that a single vial is enough yeast to pitch directly into wort at 1.060 or below. I think they are making a compromise by starting the yeast at the higher temperature of 70deg to allow the yeast to start its job and replicate faster, while still producing good beer.

However, when making a huge starter, I feel it negates the reasoning for a higher temp, as you don't need the yeast to replicate heavily -- you already have enough to get job started correctly.

When I use 001, I pitch at 65 and ferment at 65 (I generally see an 8 degree increase during fermentation so my fridge will be set to an ambient of 57)

Cheers.
T

 

[audger]

A lot of what you taste as "greenness" is under-carbonation and undissolved CO2. This is not a problem when kegging the beer. Even kegged beer tastes better after a couple weeks, though.

green means young. the same as wine needs to age, beer does too. it has nothing do with carbonation.

last time i checked, there was no substitute for time, so letting your bottles properly condition for several weeks is the only way to age them.

 

[Shockerengr]

green means young. the same as wine needs to age, beer does too. it has nothing do with carbonation.

last time i checked, there was no substitute for time, so letting your bottles properly condition for several weeks is the only way to age them.

I agree with the first comment, "green" beer is the result of off flavors caused be yeast reproduction and fermenation, such as acetelhyde, diacetyl, that are slowly consumed by the yeast as a beer ages. (the "clean up after themselves" phase")

But there is an alternative/substitute for time. If you have the controls and processes in place up front to minimize the production of those "green" off flavors (or speed the clean up, as a diacetyl rest for lager brewing), aging requirements are really diminished.

2 weeks is a standard turnaround time for me for most ales, unless I've done something wrong or have a very high alcohol beer. Lager's by nature take longer, but I'm still inside 6 weeks, with the last one going on tap at 5 weeks. The only real issue I run into with these time frames is some yeast strains haven't fully flocculated in that time frame, which may or may not be an issue for a beer (it certainly add's its own character...but not one I typically associate with green)

 

[SkiNuke]

I was curious what sort of time schedules people use for kegging. I kegged an Irish Red Ale a week ago after it was in the primary for 2 weeks and in the secondary for 1 week (4 weeks total before i started drinking). I thought I had bottling down, but kegging seems to be a different animal and it doesn't quite taste as I think it should (probably just a bit green). But either way, should I be letting my beer condition in the kegerator at 40 degrees, or should I leave it out at 60-70 degrees for x amount of time (and what would "x" be)?

I'd like to streamline this process and get it as efficient as possible.

 

[corncob]

I am drinking my youngest beer yet right now. It is a big mild, brewed 3.5 weeks ago. I pitched carefully-rehydrated Nottingham per MrMalty at ferm temp. and slowly let the temp rise during fermentation. After 10 days, the gravity was stable and the green taste was absent, so I kegged. I left it at 2X pressure for 1 day, turned it down, and started drinking it at 3 days. It didn't really get completely clear until day 18 or 19--2.5 weeks.

I credit pitching the right amount of yeast and carefully controlling fermentation temperatures. I have been drinking a lot of green yeasty beer right out of the primary for awhile now, so I feel confident going on taste, rather than time. I think everyone should do it this way, but be sure to invest in a stainless turkey baster and a spray bottle of StarSan.

I love my fermentation chiller!!

 

[Yooper]

I was curious what sort of time schedules people use for kegging. I kegged an Irish Red Ale a week ago after it was in the primary for 2 weeks and in the secondary for 1 week (4 weeks total before i started drinking). I thought I had bottling down, but kegging seems to be a different animal and it doesn't quite taste as I think it should (probably just a bit green). But either way, should I be letting my beer condition in the kegerator at 40 degrees, or should I leave it out at 60-70 degrees for x amount of time (and what would "x" be)?

I'd like to streamline this process and get it as efficient as possible.

If you pitch the proper amount of yeast and ferment at the proper temperature, it's fine to keg at two weeks or so. If the beer tastes green, it's best to leave it at room temperature but mine go right into the kegerator. If you avoid green flavor in the first place, it doesn't need to age out. I have a stout though that needs a couple more weeks to meld. The roasty flavor is too much at two weeks, but perfect at 6 weeks. Otherwise, I'm drinking most of my beers (not lagers) at 3 weeks old.

 

[rico567]

Do the steps mentioned, however you will still always have age requirements. So the answer is build a pipeline and have patience.

THIS. I think "Revvy" has a thread somewhere about pipelines. In any case, I'm sure I read something by him several years ago, so I rearranged* my basement and installed shelves for more storage, bought more fermenters, and increased my bottle collection. If you are feeling pressed waiting for your beer to mature, a pipeline is your friend.

*threw crap out

Note: I am not minimizing any other advice in this thread. Temperature control, in particular, is very important. I pitch <70F, and my basement stays around 60F.

 

[SkiNuke]

So, being in a position where my beer tastes a bit green. Should I detap it and let it sit out for a week or so. Or will it condition just fine in the kegerator? My time frame is dictated by a party on the 15th.

 

[Dgonza9]

I agree with the first comment, "green" beer is the result of off flavors caused be yeast reproduction and fermenation, such as acetelhyde, diacetyl, that are slowly consumed by the yeast as a beer ages. (the "clean up after themselves" phase")QUOTE]


This summer I basically filtered 5 gallons of Kolsch at .5 microns. This removes essentially all the yeast. If anything, this beer seemed to need less conditioning than the 5 gallons I didn't filter. So I don't necessarily think "yeast cleanup" has anything to do with green beer.

I use starters and control fermentation temps. My beer stil is generally much better after a few weeks in the keg. About a month is a decent time frame for me. 2 weeks to ferment. I pressure ferment, so after two weeks I crash cool and the beer is already fermented. It's often drinkable after 2 weeks, but even better after 2 more.

 

[Dgonza9]

I agree with the first comment, "green" beer is the result of off flavors caused be yeast reproduction and fermenation, such as acetelhyde, diacetyl, that are slowly consumed by the yeast as a beer ages. (the "clean up after themselves" phase")

This summer I basically filtered 5 gallons of Kolsch at .5 microns. This removes essentially all the yeast. If anything, this beer seemed to need less conditioning than the 5 gallons I didn't filter. So I don't necessarily think "yeast cleanup" has anything to do with green beer.

I use starters and control fermentation temps. My beer stil is generally much better after a few weeks in the keg. About a month is a decent time frame for me. 2 weeks to ferment. I pressure ferment, so after two weeks I crash cool and the beer is already fermented. It's often drinkable after 2 weeks, but even better after 2 more.

 

[Shockerengr]

if it's an ale, it will condition faster at warmer temps (60's) as the yeast are slightly more active.

Not knowing what is green for you or how strong, it's hard to say how long it will take in the kegerator....but they will condition there too.

 

[Malticulous]

if it's an ale, it will condition faster at warmer temps (60's) as the yeast are slightly more active.

The maturation phase is only a few days, not weeks. As the yeast go into starvation they will scavenge up some of the by products.


In this typical lager fermentation the maturation/diacetyl rest is just days five and six.

With the right pitching rate, using fresh healthy yeast, and proper aeration of the wort prior to pitching, the fermentation of the beer will be complete within 3-8 days (bigger = longer). This time period includes the secondary or conditioning phase of fermentation when the yeast clean up acetaldehyde and diacetyl.

What's happening after that is mostly yeast and proteins falling out and cold helps with that, be it ale or lager.