Recipe Request: Bass No 1 Barleywine?

[Protos]

Gentlemen, does anyone have a clone recipe for Bass No 1 Barleywine?
I fail to find any on the web (besides an extract recipe on Brewersfriend, which with no sources provided could be just a personal approach on the theme, no better or worse than I could concoct myself).
I've studied Ron Pattinson's blog extensively and have found quite a few mentions of the elusive No 1 but no recipes. No idea where to look further.
Anyone's keeping the knowledge on how that beer is made?

 

[DBhomebrew]

I've studied Ron Pattinson's blog extensively and have found quite a few mentions of the elusive No 1 but no recipes.

You, too?

I kind of resigned myself to a Truman's or such.

 

[Protos]

Yes. It's now my time to join the Quest for The Red Diamond. It seems I'm not alone
Trumans, too, if nobody has the answer...
The recipe on BF doesn't look as silly as it might look given the 20% Dextrose suggestion (no doubt, it should be inverted sugar and some Caramell instead). The guy at least knows about the use of Clusters in strong historical beers of this kind. I wonder where did he take his recipe.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Trumans, too, if nobody has the answer...

Ron's got both the S1 and R1 from the 1960's. S1 aged then blended with fresh R1 to arrive at their barleywine. Same as Bass, I believe.

 

[patto1ro]

Gentlemen, does anyone have a clone recipe for Bass No 1 Barleywine?
I fail to find any on the web (besides an extract recipe on Brewersfriend, which with no sources provided could be just a personal approach on the theme, no better or worse than I could concoct myself).
I've studied Ron Pattinson's blog extensively and have found quite a few mentions of the elusive No 1 but no recipes. No idea where to look further.
Anyone's keeping the knowledge on how that beer is made?

You need to get in touch with Coors, who own the Bass records. I've been trying to see them for more than a decade. The bastards won't let anyone look at them.

Truman No. 1, however, is a good substitute. I'm drinking one right now.. It's full of blendy goodness.

 

[patto1ro]

Ron's got both the S1 and R1 from the 1960's. S1 aged then blended with fresh R1 to arrive at their barleywine. Same as Bass, I believe.

Goose Island release their version tomorrow. It's lovely.

 

[Protos]

The bastards won't let anyone look at them

Which means my chances to brew a No 1 are nonexistent, since the recipe is inaccessible even to the gurus.

Well, then I have to choose another recipe to mark the coming personal anniversary of picking up the brewing hobby. Last time, it's been a 1972 Gold Label. A formidable beer. If no Bass No 1 recipe is available, then, yeah, Trumans.
Or, rather, another Gold Label of a different vintage.

 

[Miraculix]

Which means my chances to brew a No 1 are nonexistent, since the recipe is inaccessible even to the gurus.

Well, then I have to choose another recipe to mark the coming personal anniversary of picking up the brewing hobby. Last time, it's been a 1972 Gold Label. A formidable beer. If no Bass No 1 recipe is available, then, yeah, Trumans.
Or, rather, another Gold Label of a different vintage.

I'd recommend the pinnacle of brewing history. It goes by the name of "Miraculix Best".

 

[Protos]

I've had a look at it in the Recipes section. A nice beer, I'd lovely brew it as a replacement for my recent version of Centennial Blonde, which I nurtured fond expectations for and which I screwed.
But for an anniversary batch, you need a cellarable beer to drink it after a year or five. Hence, my quest for a Barleywine.

 

[Miraculix]

I've had a look at it in the Recipes section. A nice beer, I'd lovely brew it as a replacement for my recent version of Centennial Blonde, which I nurtured fond expectations for and which I screwed.
But for an anniversary batch, you need a cellarable beer to drink it after a year or five. Hence, my quest for a Barleywine.

I did not have many barley wines but the very best I've had happened to be a brew of my own. It is so dead simple and possibly also pretty much the same thing they would have brewed back in the days, given the historic ingredients.

Chevalier malt as the Base
10-20% home made Medium invert sugar
2% Heritage Crystal malt (I'd skip this one and go with chevallier and invert only these days).
50 ibus bittering additions only from noble hops of your choice, preferably Goldings
Og 1.11
Fg whatever your yeast reaches.
Yeast: imperial pub (brew a bitter with it first as a starter, pitch the barley wine wort directly on the yeastcake)
After two days add one pack of us05 to aid attenuation.

Let it sit in the fermenter for three weeks, ferment on the cool side of pub, meaning about 18c. You can let it warm up to room temperature after one week.

Still have bottles of this batch and they keep getting better and better. Malty goodness.

 

[Protos]

^ Love this.
It's exactly my oldish surplus of the Chevalier malt that I planned to use up in this recipe. Your recipe is impeccable, I'd compile exactly the same if I planned to concoct my own English Barleywine (sans Crystals, of course).
Probably, will do that if I don't find a historical recipe that hits my string (Trumans doesn't, unfortunately: I'm not sure I'm very good at blending beers and didn't like my previous attempts).
A Gold Label looks nice too but I already have a batch of it for the anniversaries to come.
So I'm bookmarking your posting, just in case

 

[Miraculix]

^ Love this.
It's exactly my oldish surplus of the Chevalier malt that I planned to use up in this recipe. Your recipe is impeccable, I'd compile exactly the same if I planned to concoct my own English Barleywine (sans Crystals, of course).
Probably, will do that if I don't find a historical recipe that hits my string (Trumans doesn't, unfortunately: I'm not sure I'm very good at blending beers and didn't like my previous attempts).
A Gold Label looks nice too but I already have a batch of it for the anniversaries to come.
So I'm bookmarking your posting, just in case

Thanks!

You cannot really go wrong with that one. It really showcases all the qualities of Chevallier, which in itself already delivers all the goodness that is associated with the correct amount of crystal malts. But of course, as you know, it benefits greatly from aging time. After 3 months it is really good. After half a year it is really really good. After one year it becomes marvelous. After one and a half years... oh my goodness

 

[deere322]

Which means my chances to brew a No 1 are nonexistent, since the recipe is inaccessible even to the gurus.

Well, then I have to choose another recipe to mark the coming personal anniversary of picking up the brewing hobby. Last time, it's been a 1972 Gold Label. A formidable beer. If no Bass No 1 recipe is available, then, yeah, Trumans.
Or, rather, another Gold Label of a different vintage.

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2016/11/lets-brew-1954-tennants-gold-label.html
Brewed this one, a wonderful beer.

Pic from the English Ale thread back in 2016

https://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/data/attach/328/328837-ImageUploadedByHome-Brew1484098689.916878.jpg

 

[Protos]

It really showcases all the qualities of Chevallier

Great! That's what I need. I've tried Chevallier in several styles but never tried it in a really strong beer. Am really interested to learn how it tastes at the higher gravity level.

Brewed this one, a wonderful beer.

A wonderful beer, indeed.
I brewed the 1972 version - just because it had less Maize content in it (8% in 1972 against 20% in 1954). I wasn't too sure that so much Maize would stand aging very well. It didn't in my American Malt Liqours (Lagers), which contained 33% of Maize and quickly got stale - probably, because of the higher fat content in Maize.

 

[Miraculix]

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2016/11/lets-brew-1954-tennants-gold-label.html
Brewed this one, a wonderful beer.

Pic from the English Ale thread back in 2016

https://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/data/attach/328/328837-ImageUploadedByHome-Brew1484098689.916878.jpg

That was second on my list when I brewed the one above

 

[Protos]

Yay! Found a satisfactory Barleywine: Truman's 1850 KXXX!
Almost what Miraculix suggestsed, just no sugar, a pure 11%ABV Chevallier SMaSH.
Definitely, a beer to be drunk a bottle each year.
Well, the anniversary recipe is finally settled.
Just gonna lower the insane IBUs down to some 65-70 and screw dry-hopping.

 

[bwible]

I did not have many barley wines but the very best I've had happened to be a brew of my own. It is so dead simple and possibly also pretty much the same thing they would have brewed back in the days, given the historic ingredients.

Chevalier malt as the Base
10-20% home made Medium invert sugar
2% Heritage Crystal malt (I'd skip this one and go with chevallier and invert only these days).
50 ibus bittering additions only from noble hops of your choice, preferably Goldings
Og 1.11
Fg whatever your yeast reaches.
Yeast: imperial pub (brew a bitter with it first as a starter, pitch the barley wine wort directly on the yeastcake)
After two days add one pack of us05 to aid attenuation.

Let it sit in the fermenter for three weeks, ferment on the cool side of pub, meaning about 18c. You can let it warm up to room temperature after one week.

Still have bottles of this batch and they keep getting better and better. Malty goodness.

I’m planning an English Style Barleywine too. Question I searched and could not find an answer - does anybody use Dark or Amber Candi Sugar in place of invert? Are they similar enough or would that be wrong?

 

[Miraculix]

I’m planning an English Style Barleywine too. Question I searched and could not find an answer - does anybody use Dark or Amber Candi Sugar in place of invert? Are they similar enough or would that be wrong?

I would gladly use it. It is not the exact same thing, but for my taste it should go into the right direction and contributes something that should benefit this type of beer.

 

[Miraculix]

Yay! Found a satisfactory Barleywine: Truman's 1850 KXXX!
Almost what Miraculix suggestsed, just no sugar, a pure 11%ABV Chevallier SMaSH.
Definitely, a beer to be drunk a bottle each year.
Well, the anniversary recipe is finally settled.
Just gonna lower the insane IBUs down to some 65-70 and screw dry-hopping.

Perfect choice. And yes, skip the dry hop, no point in a beer that is aged 6 months+. You want to mash long and low though, otherwise you might run into attenuation problems. Also the choice of yeast is more crucial in this case than it would be with 20% invert.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Dry hopping for these stock ales isn't just aroma. It's the antiseptic value along with the hop creep to help the brett.

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2018/03/why-dry-hop.html?m=1

 

[Protos]

the choice of yeast

Old good Nottingham, I reckon...
Even if it struggles, I love my beers on the higher side of attenuation.
If anything, I struggle to replicate those ultra-low attenuations of yore. Which I'd prefer, if I could replicate them.

 

[Protos]

does anybody use Dark or Amber Candi Sugar in place of invert?

I do. I don't see any substantial difference betwen inverted and uninverted sugars.
I see a difference between the brands of beet sugars, though. Some taste the same in beer, inverted or not. Some are really cidery when uninverted and need to be inverted before use.
Cane sugar, no difference. To my palate.

 

[Miraculix]

Old good Nottingham, I reckon...
Even if it struggles, I love my beers on the higher side of attenuation.
If anything, I struggle to replicate those ultra-low attenuations of yore. Which I'd prefer, if I could replicate them.

Noooo use something Special! ... And on the second day, pitch Nottingham or us05 to up the attenuation .

 

[Protos]

Willingly would to.
But, what could be called a Special Yeast among the dry options, only available to me?
The most Spezial dry yeast I have is M29, which doesn't fit well the English styles...
Actually, Nott is much more than just a "neutral" English yeast. Given a high-grav wort and a warm ferm temp, it used to make wonders to me.

 

[Miraculix]

Willingly would to.
But, what could be called a Special Yeast among the dry options, only available to me?
The most Spezial dry yeast I have is M29, which doesn't fit well the English styles...
Actually, Nott is much more than just a "neutral" English yeast. Given a high-grav wort and a warm ferm temp, it used to make wonders to me.

Oh,dry only... Ok. Then you can either go the notty route, or you can copitch one pack notti, one pack verdant. But you really need to like fruity yeasts, otherwise it wouldn't make any sense. I cannot recommend co pitching Nottingham and London ale, I just did that and I think Nottingham alone would have produced a better bitter. You could also try Windsor and Nottingham, that's kind of a classic copitch combination. Otherwise I'm out of ideas. I would use Imperial yeast pub and us05 after two days, but if you cannot get it, then you cannot get it.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

If you want more historical accuracy and don't have to worry about the AA of the yeast, you could always age it in secondary on some wood and Brett.C for a few months before bottling.
I had a bottle of Fullers Vintage 2020 last night after the kids went to sleep and I could park myself in the couch.
Apart from making me want to go to sleep immediatly after the pint was finished I picked up some subtle pineapple and leathery notes in the background, and they usually are drier than you'd expect beers of that gravity to be, wich lead me to suspect brett but does anyone know for sure wether it is aged on brett or no? I tinker on a late 1800's Stock/Old ale myself and am debating if I should secondary it on some oak cubes with brett or not and what I could expect from it.

 

[Miraculix]

If you want more historical accuracy and don't have to worry about the AA of the yeast, you could always age it in secondary on some wood and Brett.C for a few months before bottling.
I had a bottle of Fullers Vintage 2020 last night after the kids went to sleep and I could park myself in the couch.
Apart from making me want to go to sleep immediatly after the pint was finished I picked up some subtle pineapple and leathery notes in the background, and they usually are drier than you'd expect beers of that gravity to be, wich lead me to suspect brett but does anyone know for sure wether it is aged on brett or no? I tinker on a late 1800's Stock/Old ale myself and am debating if I should secondary it on some oak cubes with brett or not and what I could expect from it.

That is really something I'm intending to do in the future ... Since ages. But isn't Brett in general a bit sensitive towards higher alcohol content, meaning, would it actually start to do something in a 10% abv+ scenario?

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I suppose most yeasts would struggle in that case, although I will likely mash somewhat high to get only about ~70% AA in the first fermentation to leave the Brett some sugars to work with and not too much alcohol initially. And it will be an 1.075 OG brew so I don't count on the abv to get much past 8%.
I suppose I could also add a few percent of Heritage Crystal or DRC aswell to have a little sweetness left after the Brett is done, it wouldn't be wrong since British brewers in the late 1800's started taking out the turns a bit more in K/KK/KKK ales and you can often see recipes with a little Brown/Amber, Crystal and even a pinch of Black Malt thrown in the mix.

 

[Miraculix]

I suppose most yeasts would struggle in that case, although I will likely mash somewhat high to get only about ~70% AA in the first fermentation to leave the Brett some sugars to work with and not too much alcohol initially. And it will be an 1.075 OG brew so I don't count on the abv to get much past 8%.
I suppose I could also add a few percent of Heritage Crystal or DRC aswell to have a little sweetness left after the Brett is done, it wouldn't be wrong since British brewers in the late 1800's started taking out the turns a bit more in K/KK/KKK ales and you can often see recipes with a little Brown/Amber, Crystal and even a pinch of Black Malt thrown in the mix.

Ah,OK. I was talking about protos recipe, which has an og above 1.1. having your beer in mind, you're certainly right. I don't know if it is really necessary or a good idea to mash higher in these higher abv brews. There will be plenty of dextrins and longer sugars left anyway, but you might end up with too much of it if you mash high.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Well, I guess I will have to go buy a 12L Speidel fermentation tun and a bottle wand to be "Funky Only"...
I got an old timey inspired Ris recipe in the works aswell that I intend to age on oak and Brett.