Mixed-Fermentation Sour Beer Really Easy Fruit Sour

[Shenanigans]

A bit off topic but I brewed a kettle sour with SourPitch and 50% pils 50% wheat over the weekend.
I soured it for about 45 hours at 35oC.
I also added a table spoon of lactic acid to get the PH down before adding the SourPitch - no exact science or PH meter but the PH should have been around 4.2
It tasted much different than when done for a week at 19oC and no acid.
Very lemony as described on the manufacturer website.
I added 15g salt , 20g Corriander and 60g Tradition hops at the start of a 15 min boil.
I got 23 Litres of 1.048 wort with 12 IBUs and am fermenting it with M21 Witbier yeast.
Hopefully it will be a refreshing Summer drink around 5%.

 

[cmac62]

anyone on here try the philly sour yeast? Thoughts?

 

[JTOVERMOHLE]

anyone on here try the philly sour yeast? Thoughts?

I have a brew day planned on Monday or tuesday next week. 4 gallon split batch using philly sour. 2 gallons each of peach and rhubarb. No experience using it yet, but i will post here with my experience along the way.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

For anyone interested in a slightly less sour version with a tad more complexity, my current version is now a bit different.....I'm including 5% 20-30L crystal malt (additional to the original malt bill) and using Nottingham yeast at 16.5C/62F. The rest of the process is the same (including using a half dose of sour-pitch). I think the lower ferment temperature inhibits the lacto a bit, leaving enough sourness to balance the beer but not be berliner-weisse like. I really like it, especially with raspberries.

 

[Just_another_drunkard_666]

So second time I made this there was a definite pellicle formed .... not that familiar with souring or lacto but kegged anyway and it tasted fine. Serving through a picnic tap tho instead of my normal lines because the pellicle had me worried some other bug had got in there. Is this normal with lacto I.e., don't need to worry that much?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Probably no need to worry, but something might have got in from the fruit. Give everything a through clean and you should be alright.

 

[Just_another_drunkard_666]

Thanks for the response! Kinda what I figured but was a little worried.

 

[TwogunRocky]

For 2 gallons at 72% efficiency (which may or may not suit your system) you'd use about 3.3lbs of grain, so 2.2lbs of pils malt and 1.1lbs of wheat malt.

Hey mate,
I'm looking to brew your recipe at the scale above, so 2.2lb(1kg) pils malt, 1.1lb(0.5kg) wheat malt & I'm putting in 0.22lb(100g) flaked oats too.
It's my first ever AG brew, and I'll be BIAB on the stove top.... Ideally I'd like to finish postboil with 11/12 litres in the fermenter so I could split it into two batches. I really don't want to screw it up so hope you could give me some advice as best you can. It's the mash I'm most concerned about, what volume of strike water would I use and what temp am I looking for, for the modest grain bill and required final volume above?.... I only have one SS kettle to boil with, so would a full volume mash be best?, then top up to required volume with water?
The online calculators are a bit above my level of knowledge right now... So to condense my question, it's the volume, temp & length of the mash required to achieve a post boil volume of approx 11/12 litres at 1.045.
I know there are too many variables to give anything like a specific answer, but if you could give me an educated guesstimate I'd really appreciate the help, as I say its my first AG brew and am very excited to try your recipe, I'm jumping in to AG with both feet albeit on a sensible level, so if it goes wrong its not the end of the world but I'd like to give it the best odds of turning out drinkable.
Appreciate any help very much

 

[Gnomebrewer]

That's 3.5lbs of grain.
At 35ppg (a rough guesstimate) you'll have about 120 gravity points available.
Assuming 75% efficiency, you'd end up with about 90 points in your finished wort.
Over three gallons, that's a starting gravity of 1.030.

So, to get to 1.045, I'd suggest you add 50% more grain, and have some extract on hand to bump the gravity up if your efficiency is lower than 75%. It won't matter if your gravity ends up being above 1.045 (better than 75% efficiency).

5lbs of grain will absorb roughly 2.5 litres of water without squeezing or hanging for a while to drain. You'll get that down to about a litre if you give the bag a good squeeze and somewhere in between if you hang it to drain. So you'll need about 13 to 15 litres of mash/sparge water.

For mashing, you need at least 6 litres (1.5 gallons) of water. The rest can be used for sparging. Or you can use the full volume for mashing with no sparge, or anywhere in between!

Having said all of that, I don't think this is the best recipe for a first all-grain (unless you really like sours). Wheat (and oats) are notoriously a PITA to mash (but less so in BIAB systems, so go for it if you want to).

 

[Drewch]

Hey mate,
I'm looking to brew your recipe at the scale above, so 2.2lb(1kg) pils malt, 1.1lb(0.5kg) wheat malt & I'm putting in 0.22lb(100g) flaked oats too.
It's my first ever AG brew, and I'll be BIAB on the stove top.... Ideally I'd like to finish postboil with 11/12 litres in the fermenter so I could split it into two batches.
... So to condense my question, it's the volume, temp & length of the mash required to achieve a post boil volume of approx 11/12 litres at 1.045.

Having said all of that, I don't think this is the best recipe for a first all-grain (unless you really like sours). Wheat (and oats) are notoriously a PITA to mash (but less so in BIAB systems, so go for it if you want to).

I've gone up to 100% wheat BIAB without issue; so I wouldn't worry about that aspect of it. But I agree with Gnomebrewer that you'll need more grain to hit the OG you're looking for. At 75% mash efficiency, I'd suggest (to keep the numbers even...): 1.5kg pils, 700g wheat malt, 150g flaked oats all crushed as fine as you can get it. I crush my grains at 0.025 gap and routinely hit 80%+ mash efficiency at a moderate OG like this with a 30 minute mash. You'll need about 15-17L of total mash water depending on what you expect to lose in the boil (BrewFather says I'd need 14.96L but I only boil for 30 minutes).

 

[Gnomebrewer]

You'll need about 15-17L of total mash water depending on what you expect to lose in the boil (BrewFather says I'd need 14.96L but I only boil for 30 minutes).

This is a 15 min boil, so 13 to 15 litres should do it for 11-12 litres into the fermenter.

 

[TwogunRocky]

Thanks lads,
Yes I love sours so it's a no brainer me starting on one like this, couple of things.... I ordered my grain precrushed in 500g bags (4xpils 2xwheat 1xoats ) hoping to get two brews going by the values in gnomebrewer's recipe, so if I were to use the original grain volumes of 2.2lb pils, 1.1lb wheat etc, how much would I reduce the water volume by( ⅓ to 8-10 litres instead of 13-15?) to get 1.045 @ approx 75% efficiency?, The most important aspect is the quality and not the final amount in the fv, it'll leave me with identical grain to do another brew for comparison and adjustments.
Just one other thing if you be so kind, the mash temp and length.... Ive read so much but just need a starting point, is 66°c mash (73°c strike water, maybe less as not much grain) for 1hour suitable for these types of grains?... also sparge water temp is very important so I've read to extract the remaining sugars and not tannins, general consensus is not to exceed 77°c with that.... If indeed I do sparge, but probably do full volume anyway. I will add if necessary 1/200g sugar to hit gravity if needed as I've read the Philly sour yeast( which I'm using ) greatly benefits from simple sugars for souring, not aware of this goodbelly stuff here in England, or an equivalent.
Appreciate your time and thoughts

 

[Drewch]

I don't sparge; I just squeeze the bag. For this recipe with a 15-min, BrewFather says start with ~13L & strike at ~70C.

I just pitched my fourth batch with PhillySour, and say go with the sugar idea. That grain bill plus 200g of table sugar should get you to about 1.038 OG.

 

[marc1]

Thanks lads,
Yes I love sours so it's a no brainer me starting on one like this, couple of things.... I ordered my grain precrushed in 500g bags (4xpils 2xwheat 1xoats ) hoping to get two brews going by the values in gnomebrewer's recipe, so if I were to use the original grain volumes of 2.2lb pils, 1.1lb wheat etc, how much would I reduce the water volume by( ⅓ to 8-10 litres instead of 13-15?) to get 1.045 @ approx 75% efficiency?, The most important aspect is the quality and not the final amount in the fv, it'll leave me with identical grain to do another brew for comparison and adjustments.
Just one other thing if you be so kind, the mash temp and length.... Ive read so much but just need a starting point, is 66°c mash (73°c strike water, maybe less as not much grain) for 1hour suitable for these types of grains?... also sparge water temp is very important so I've read to extract the remaining sugars and not tannins, general consensus is not to exceed 77°c with that.... If indeed I do sparge, but probably do full volume anyway. I will add if necessary 1/200g sugar to hit gravity if needed as I've read the Philly sour yeast( which I'm using ) greatly benefits from simple sugars for souring, not aware of this goodbelly stuff here in England, or an equivalent.
Appreciate your time and thoughts

You can also sparge with room temp water. It takes longer to bring to a boil afterwards, but doesn't involve heating more water beforehand.

Also, this thread is about mixed fermentation sour beer (with bacteria), not lactic acid producing yeast.

There's a big thread on Philly Sour here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...-sour-feedback-or-experience-to-share.682096/
You might get better feedback there (specifically on fermentation) because it will be more on topic.

 

[TwogunRocky]

Thanks Drewch,
Grains & yeast arrived today so I'm gonna go on the lower volume side of things, probably 11 litres no sparge and see where I end up.... Rather overshoot the gravity and be able to liquor back than thin it with more sugar.
Thanks for your comments marc1, I've read that thread entirely by the way.... my questions to the OP have nothing to do with fermentation, I am concerned with recipe, volumes, temps & time.

Thanks lads

 

[JeffersonStateBrewing]

The rest of the process is the same (including using a half dose of sour-pitch).

Half dose? Is that half of the package is half of the original recipe meaning only a half gram? Or did you mean 1gram as listed in post #1? Sorry if this has been addressed already I am only on page 4 of this thread. Little more reading to go.

This looks interesting and I intend to try it pretty soon. Gotta source some fruit!

Thanks in advance

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Half dose? Is that half of the package is half of the original recipe meaning only a half gram? Or did you mean 1gram as listed in post #1? Sorry if this has been addressed already I am only on page 4 of this thread. Little more reading to go.

This looks interesting and I intend to try it pretty soon. Gotta source some fruit!

Thanks in advance

1g per 5 gallon of beer. It's half the dose of the packet instructions. I now use half that again (0.5g per 5 gallon batch). I think the instructions/recommended pitch rate is more targeted at kettle souring, where the souring needs to happen quickly (eg overnight). Co-pitching with yeast means it has more time to do it's thing, so a smaller pitch is needed.

 

[JeffersonStateBrewing]

Do you believe that a sour starter is necessary? I am a total n00b with sour stuff and reading as much as I can to get the feel of knowing a little something.

I have always made yeast staters, always. And I will do so for this recipe as well. However I am wondering if making a sour starter might give it too much of an advantage and beat out the s-05 (not certain if I will stick with the s-05 or go with a different liquid yeast option yet) competition rendering this way too sour?

Or should I make a starter using the s-05 and sour pitch together so that they grow side by side to reduce the 'competition'?

I have never had a dry pitch yeast actually work as advertised before. I was originally taught to brew using a large healthy starter so that is how I have always done it.

Brainstorming before brew day. Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks

 

[Gnomebrewer]

A sour starter isn't necessary if you use the lallemand powder. If you used probiotic pills, it's worth making a very small starter to check that the Lactobacillus is alive.

 

[Drewch]

1g per 5 gallon of beer.

Wow! I've been doing 1g per liter based on Sui Generis's blog post (1 million cells per ml and my own math using on Lallemand's quoted CFUs / g of PhillySour) — with pretty good results.

 

[1brewdon]

INGREDIENTS:
2/3 Pilsner malt. 1/3 Wheat malt. Aim for an OG around 1.045.
No hops.


Looking at several sour beer recipes, I see people using several different types of wheat malt. I see a lot of white wheat. Anyone use red wheat? Any opinions on that?

Also, someone remind me what amount of rice hulls to keep me from spending the whole day tending my spare.

Thanks,

The White Wheat has a larger kernel size. Some people prefer it over Red Wheat because they don't need to change their mill gap.

 

[Beernoob88]

Brewed this back in December as my first sour. Kept it simple and opted for DME and frozen mango and wow you guys were not wrong...

My 3-Gallon Recipe:
2 lb Light DME
1 lb What DME
0.5 lb each White Wheat and Carapils steeped (I wanted to ensure good head retention)

Pitched US-05 and 4 o.z. Goodbelly Mango

4 days later I added 2 lb of frozen mango

View attachment 720527

Next time I might opt for less goodbelly to drive the sourness down slightly but that's more for others than it is for me.

Thanks Gnomebrewer!

Dumb question. But how much water did you use? I assume that 1 lb of what DME is Wheat DME?

 

[cmac62]

Dumb question. But how much water did you use? I assume that 1 lb of what DME is Wheat DME?

DME = Dry Malt Extract.

edit: Doh!, read the whole post first. LOL

 

[Bobby Marinelli]

This has become a staple beer at my house. It's loved by non-beer drinkers, lager drinkers and craft beer drinkers. Kegs go faster than anything else I make. This is really simple, using the co-pitching method (sacch and lacto go into the ferment at the same time) which is easier than kettle souring. It gives a bit more complexity from the lacto and always seems to end up at about the right acidity level. The OG and mash temp give the right body and sweetness to work with the acidity, and allow the flavours from the fruit to shine through. There are some really good threads about co-pitching simple sours including Fast Souring - Modern Methods
Importantly, don't be worried about contaminating equipment. It WON'T happen. L. plantarum is so hop intolerant that it won't infect your other hopped beers.

INGREDIENTS:
2/3 Pilsner malt. 1/3 Wheat malt. Aim for an OG around 1.045.
No hops.

PROCESS:
Mash at 155F for an hour.
Collect wort and boil for 10 minutes.
Chill to pitching temps and pitch a packet of US05 per 5gal and 1g of Lallemand/Wildbrew Sour Pitch (Lactobacillus plantarum). That's half of what the instructions say to use for Sour Pitch, but is more than enough. I suspect pitching half a gram per 5 gal would get the job done.
Ferment at around 66 to 70F until primary is nearly finished then rack onto fruit. Try to rack just BEFORE reaching FG so the yeast are still active to scrub oxygen picked up during transfer. It normally takes about 4 to 5 days to this point.
Rack onto fruit (explained below) and leave for a further 2 weeks. Try to minimise oxygen/splashing during transfer as it seems to reduce the fresh fruit flavour.

FRUITING:
I mostly use packaged frozen fruits which work really well. There's no need to pasteurise or sanitise. Fruit should go into a grain bag (or paint strainer bag) into the secondary fermenter, then rack beer on top.
Raspberries: Use about 1.5 to 2lbs in 5 gal. Tip them straight into the grain bag.
Mango: Mush up thawed, chopped frozen mango. I bash it with my grain paddle. Use about 3lbs in 5gal.
Blueberries: As per mango.
Passionfruit pulp: Use about 3lbs per 5gal. Tip it straight into the grain bag. Others have reported good results with passionfruit puree.
These are the only fruits I've tried so far, and all have been great. Raspberries have definitely been the favourite.
There's lots of other good fruiting info on the Milk the Funk Wiki Soured Fruit Beer
but I find I use a lot less that what is suggested in this beer.
Cheers and enjoy!

If I wanted to add peanut butter for a pb&j taste... at what point would I do that and how would you go about that? Any ideas?

 

[Just_another_drunkard_666]

If I wanted to add peanut butter for a pb&j taste... at what point would I do that and how would you go about that? Any ideas?

Peanut butter powder? I've used it in a stout but I feel that would be odd in a sour haha

 

[Paola]

I only rack to secondary because I split a big batch into two or three smaller batches over different fruits.

I'm a beginner and I have done this recipe successfully with raspberrys and DME. Thanks for sharing your find!

Now I'm trying to make the process even easier (and to understand the steps).

• So adding the fruit to the primary is as good as to rack to a secondary and add the fruit there? Or is there any benifit with racking to a secondary (except from splitting the batch to smaller fractions)?
• Is it possible to add the fruit to the primary at the beginning, together with the yeast and lacto? If not: why is that not advisable?

Thanks in advance!
/Paola