Question: I've gone to all grain shall I ever go back?

[MartinH]

I've brewed all grain for an year plus. I just do not see the point of ever going back to the "syrup".. I mean everything will get you drunk "some taste good" and kits "syrup" are much easier and faster to brew. But my self I love to see someone drunk and "great" beer that I made form start to finest. "But the malting"

Brew on!!

 

[StunnedMonkey]

Rough night in Reno?

 

[bradjoiner]

I actually started all grain and untill just recently had never done a partial mash. i have started doing ten gallon batches on my session beers and cannot always fit all he grain in my mash tun. my lhbs has really fresh breiss malt syrup all the time so will continue to do partials for this type of brewing as well as maybe use some syrup in my next barley wine. i think the key to using syrups either way (in my opinon) is to only use about 30 to 40 percent syrup to the rest grain

 

[buffalobrewer]

sometimes life gets in the way of ag weekend brewing and I rip open a bag of extract and squeeze in a quick batch on a weeknight. I need to get my pipeline full!

I also do one when teaching a total noob how to brew (usually have an ag going at the same time to show them both worlds).

 

[BrianTheBrewer]

Ya when you dont have the time for all grain, extract is where it is at. You also dont have to use just syrup. I have never used a can or syrup. Just DME. Made a few good brews with the stuff.

 

[david_42]

Since there is no discernible difference between a well-made extract beer and a well-made all-grain beer, I don't understand your problem.

 

[Revvy]

Since there is no discernible difference between a well-made extract beer and a well-made all-grain beer, I don't understand your problem.

+1,000

I think people who do AG who feel the need to diss extract don't realize that the reason their original extract batches tasted like crap to them was NOT that extract recipes/beers suck, it's that their process as brewers sucked.

And that if they went back and applied all the techniques they now know and employ in their ag batches (full boils, temp control, patience, rapid chilling, etc) to an extract recipe, using the best/freshest ingredients possible, they will find that their Extracts batches are not so bad after all.


Kinda reminds me of the saying by Mark Twain, "When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much he had learned."

I wrote about this awhile ago in my Why Can't We All Just Get Along?

There are still certain recipes in my "stable" that taste much better as Extract w/grains than with AG...No matter how many times I have brewed them as AG. Even tweaking the recipe. The original recipe is still superior. Yooper's Dead Guy Clone for one, My simple Bel's amber clone for another.

So if I want them, I brew them as extract.

Plenty of AG brewer's on here also brew extract batches, due to time constraints, brewing indoors in the winter, don't want to spend 6 hourse brewing etc.

Or just aren't snobs about the whole ag's better than extract thing.

I don't consider myself an AG'er or an Extracter...I'm a homebrewer, I make the best damn beer I can! The way I choose to do it differs from batch to batch, recipe to recipe, time commitment or mood...But, I put the same effort and skill in an Extract recipe, as I do to an allgrain.

 

[rwinzing]

Revvy I couldn't agree more I have said this before to each his own. I perfer AG but it is all about the process not the end result.

We are all married to the same obsession we just have different mistresses.

 

[KayaBrew]

I agree on the point that one can brew an extract beer that tastes just as good (if not better, depending on your procedure) than AG, but I'm calling BS on AG taking longer to brew than extract. Start to finish (including clean-up) an AG brew takes me 3.75-4 hours. Same as extract. I think it all depends on your organization when it comes to time consumption.

 

[Steelers77]

I totally agree with Revvy. I gave a how to brew class to a bunch of noob's at my wife's Co-Op back in October, and I was pretty suprised at how well the extract brew came out. In fact I was so suprised, I bought some extract to do a partial mash English Mild.
I think time and experiance helped in brewing a better extract beer. That being said I won't be leaving AG anytime soon, but maybe a few partial mash's.

 

[Steelers77]

If I may add one more thought. I think my beer actually started tasting better when I bought a oxygen stone to aerate my wort. This coupled with proper pitch rates really helped the flavor of my beer. The AG was just a natural progression

 

[Trevor57]

I agree on the point that one can brew an extract beer that tastes just as good (if not better, depending on your procedure) than AG, but I'm calling BS on AG taking longer to brew than extract. Start to finish (including clean-up) an AG brew takes me 3.75-4 hours. Same as extract. I think it all depends on your organization when it comes to time consumption.

I made an extract batch once while my kids were napping. Total time was 2:10. 2 weeks ago I made 2 extract batches (15 gallons) during the bears game.

 

[humann_brewing]

So we have had this conversation here but Martin has not chimed in again, let's keep in mind that it was written in the we hours of the night and there may have been some inebriation involved.

 

[maida7]

Revvy I couldn't agree more I have said this before to each his own. I perfer AG but it is all about the process not the end result.

We are all married to the same obsession we just have different mistresses.

I also agree with Revvy but I'm an extract devotee. I make great beer with extract. I have no desire to do AG. In fact if they stopped making extract, I would probably stop making beer. Or atleast make a whole lot less then I do now.

 

[weirdboy]

I agree on the point that one can brew an extract beer that tastes just as good (if not better, depending on your procedure) than AG, but I'm calling BS on AG taking longer to brew than extract. Start to finish (including clean-up) an AG brew takes me 3.75-4 hours. Same as extract. I think it all depends on your organization when it comes to time consumption.

AG is guaranteed to take longer than extract, because with AG you're adding an essential extra step that is already done for you with an extract batch. That is, you are mashing the grain and extracting the sugars. On top of this process step, you also have extra equipment to clean, more transfers of liquid, etc. It is not even a question of whether AG takes longer, just a matter of how much.


Personally I do mostly AG because it is substantially cheaper, I get more control over the final product, and I enjoy doing it. However I do keep a couple bags of DME around, and sometimes I throw together a quick extract or PM recipe using grains that I have sitting around when I don't have enough base malt, or I'm trying to get a quick batch out in the evening.

 

[MartinH]

As I see it, when I brew it is an all day thing. Even if it takes me 4+ hours, its an event. So, I really dont care how long it takes me as long as it comes out great.

I have used DME and the sryup, the sryup being the same taste over and over. With almost all kits.. Almost.. I have tasted some great sryups but not many. I have to say DME is good ,well great. But myself I have the room to do up to 28+lbs AG. So I see no reason to use sryup or DME other then higher alcy level; which I have got up to 15.2% with my AG. I.B.A.

As I'm an total noob to the whole web thing in the frist place and I'm not a "Brewmaster". I have no real say.. Just an opinion.


All I can say when I brew an AG I know what temp and mashes that it has gone though. I think I have more control over fav. and the achly %, another then just adding more sugar which sometimes adds an off fav.:rockin:

 

[MartinH]

Rough night in Reno?

??

Nope, just up late..

 

[MartinH]

So we have had this conversation here but Martin has not chimed in again, let's keep in mind that it was written in the we hours of the night and there may have been some inebriation involved.

What you getting at?

 

[maida7]

All I can say when I brew an AG I know what temp and mashes that it has gone though. I think I have more control over fav. and the achly %, another then just adding more sugar which sometimes adds an off fav.:rockin:

I would agree with this. With AG you can control the mash temp and the fermentability of the wort. However with power comes responsibility because the AG brewer also has the chance of screwing it up.

The Extract guy has a few tricks to replicate this shortcoming. Adding simple sugar is one way. Mashing your extract is another. But for most beers the extract is already the perfect balance of fermentable and non fermentable sugars.

 

[Synovia]

Since there is no discernible difference between a well-made extract beer and a well-made all-grain beer, I don't understand your problem.

Seriously.


Unfortunately, theres a huge difference between a poorly made extract beer, and a poorly made AG... the poorly made AG is much worse.


The advantage in AG against (fresh) extract is diversity. IE, being able to use Rye, and things like that.

 

[MartinH]

However with power comes responsibility because the AG brewer also has the chance of screwing it up.

The Extract guy has a few tricks to replicate this shortcoming.

Not to be an ass, but would that make the AG a better brewer? Or a person that wants more responsibility?

 

[MartinH]

Seriously.


Unfortunately, theres a huge difference between a poorly made extract beer, and a poorly made AG... the poorly made AG is much worse.


The advantage in AG against (fresh) extract is diversity. IE, being able to use Rye, and things like that.

I have not yet tasted a bad "poorly made" AG so I have to take your word of it.

 

[maida7]

Not to be an ass, but would that make the AG a better brewer? Or a person that wants more responsibility?

I wouldn't use the word better. Only if the resulting beer is better do you get to use the word better. The AG brewer certainly has some added responsibilities. Personally, I'm not interested in taking on those added responsibilities. I'm quite content with the simplicity of extract brewing. Extract has some limitations but it makes brewing easier and for me, it's a more enjoyable experience.

 

[maida7]

I have not yet tasted a bad "poorly made" AG so I have to take your word of it.

Consider yourself lucky. I've tasted plenty of bad AG brew. It not often that the problems could have been cured by using extract. More often then not the problems have more to do with things extract and AG brewers have in common like fermentation temps, pitching rates, infections, etc... The truth is extract vs AG is not a very important factor in the quality of beer.

 

[MartinH]

Consider yourself lucky. I've tasted plenty of bad AG brew. It not often that the problems could have been cured by using extract. More often then not the problems have more to do with things extract and AG brewers have in common like fermentation temps, pitching rates, infections, etc... The truth is extract vs AG is not a very important factor in the quality of beer.

I have brewed well over 50+ AG, I would not call myself lukcy.. Just precious and take brewing very serious.

 

[maida7]

I have brewed well over 50+ AG, I would not call myself lukcy.. Just precious and take brewing very serious.

50+ batches and never a bad one! Your a great brewer :rockin:

 

[chrisgray]

I definitely feel looked down upon by my AG buddies. They are always sayin' "man, you GOTTA go ALL-GRAIN" while they sip one of my extract beers. They seem to genuinely enjoy my beer and my forays into lagering last year got them working in that direction. I know that I will get into AG in due time but I feel my beer is god and am proud of it.

 

[HoppyDaze]

AG feels more "homemade" and is much cheaper and much more versitile. Does this mean that the end product is better? No, but there are more options it seems.

 

[Weezknight]

I have not entered any competitions, but I have attended beer "fests" where extract brews have taken top prizes.

It really does come down to process and recipe, from what I can understand.

 

[MartinH]

Ok, as I see it people that brew AG take thier brewing "more serious" and like to have more control over their product. Taking almost every step to ensure their products are great.
To someone that brews with syrups and other kits. Who just let some esle do the work and just hope for the best. I see the only control over using sryup's is the hop's or steeping grains usage. Which I think all have a base malt taste.. After brewing 30+ batchs you start to taste the same taste. "I guess its only me"


Overall, all that matters if you make a drinkable subsets!!

 

[MartinH]

50+ batches and never a bad one! Your a great brewer :rockin:

I just knocked on wood!

 

[MartinH]

AG feels more "homemade" and is much cheaper and much more versitile. Does this mean that the end product is better? No, but there are more options it seems.

I think it all about the quality and the Brewer!

 

[Weezknight]

Ok, as I see it people that brew AG take thier brewing "more serious" and like to have more control over their product. Taking almost every step to ensure their products are great.

Actually I brew with extract & steeping grains, and I take my brewing VERY seriously. I take every step to ensure my product is great, including making sure I get fresh extract. I'm not really sure what you're getting at, but you're walking very closely on that line of claiming AG-brewers are superior for whatever reason.

 

[MartinH]

I definitely feel looked down upon by my AG buddies. They are always sayin' "man, you GOTTA go ALL-GRAIN" while they sip one of my extract beers. They seem to genuinely enjoy my beer and my forays into lagering last year got them working in that direction. I know that I will get into AG in due time but I feel my beer is god and am proud of it.

Anything you make should make you fill great! I know it makes me feel like, I'm the best at what I do. Or try to be any ways.

"If you make it, they will come" No matter sryup, DME or AG.

 

[Catch-22]

You probably will. I do mostly all grain but on occasion..such as this weekend I'll be making two beers simultaneously. I'm doing an extract for my Dad while I'm mashing the one for me.

 

[Revvy]

Ok, as I see it people that brew AG take thier brewing "more serious" and like to have more control over their product. Taking almost every step to ensure their products are great.

That's so much bs....I take ALL my beers serious. Regardless of whether I am using extract or mashing grain. I don't skimp on anything, or cut corners. I pay as much attention to my fermentation temps, my pitching rate, my sanitization regimine, everything. Hell one could argue I pay MORE attention when using extract, making sure to do late extract additions, and other little tricks to make the best beer I can.

You'll find that most brewers on here, no matter whether they are doing ag, or extract are after the same thing. Making great beer! That's why their here to begin with. There are just as many passionate extract brewers on here as there are AG'ers.

 

[MartinH]

Actually I brew with extract & steeping grains, and I take my brewing VERY seriously. I take every step to ensure my product is great, including making sure I get fresh extract. I'm not really sure what you're getting at, but you're walking very closely on that line of claiming AG-brewers are superior for whatever reason.

OO no, I'm taking a step back.

If you do take the time as I have seen some people using kits do. "maybe yourself" Using steep grains and several different hops to make something that I couldn't even rap my head around, because they took it to level myself have not even look at.

All I'm saying I like to take control over my malt and mashing. Which I guess I am saying; I thought that was the next step to became a great brewer.. I guess...

LOL, you took me down a peg..:cross:

 

[MartinH]

You probably will. I do mostly all grain but on occasion..such as this weekend I'll be making two beers simultaneously. I'm doing an extract for my Dad while I'm mashing the one for me.

LOL!!

I'm doing that next week!

 

[thataintchicken]

There is a school of thought that equates extract brewing with making kool-aid. Those that subscribe to that belief often feel that AG is the only true brewing.

Apply this to another creative process.
Painting.

If one paints with a selection of paints from Wal-mart -vs- someone that grinds their own pigments out of dead bugs, twigs and pebbles --- is there a difference in the pleasure derived from the process of painting?

Is the picture any better?
Does it hang on the wall prettier?

no.

To say that that going AG means never going back -- would be saying that an oil painter would ignore inspiration just because they only had a pencil nearby.

 

[maida7]

Ok, as I see it people that brew AG take thier brewing "more serious" and like to have more control over their product. Taking almost every step to ensure their products are great.

Your generalizing when you say that AG brewers are "more serious". Perhaps they have been brainwashed into thinking that using extract makes inferior beer. Perhaps the extract brewers know that they can make the best beer possible with less effort. It's like the guy who uses power tools. Sure the hand tool guy works harder but does that make the power tool guy less serious? Does the use of power tools diminish the quality of the finished product or do they only serve to increase the probability of success?

To someone that brews with syrups and other kits. Who just let some esle do the work and just hope for the best. I see the only control over using sryup's is the hop's or steeping grains usage. Which I think all have a base malt taste.. After brewing 30+ batchs you start to taste the same taste. "I guess its only me"

Using extract is not "hoping for the best". Extract is a very well made and consistant product. The methods of making extract are undoubtable more percise and consistant then whatever it is you use to mash your homebrew. There is also a wide variety of extracts avaibale. It's not limited to american 2 row. There is munich, pilsner, english, wheat, etc... Just about any type of base malt you'd want.

Don't underestimate steeping grains. You can do almost any flavor with steeping grains. The hops, water & yeast are the same for both AG and extract.