Question: I've gone to all grain shall I ever go back?

[Shooter]

To say that that going AG means never going back -- would be saying that an oil painter would ignore inspiration just because they only had a pencil nearby.

Nicely said!

 

[MartinH]

That's so much bs.

All I can say is I still taste the base malt in Sryup Kits.. I know people that won Comps and I think all their beer taste the same.. "meaning the malt background" form his pilsner to his Porter.

I also know people that never brew the samething more then two times.

 

[maida7]

All I can say is I still taste the base malt in Sryup Kits.. I know people that won Comps and I think all their beer taste the same.. "meaning the malt background" form his pilsner to his Porter.

I also know people that never brew the samething more then two times.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that your bias controls your perception. Don't feel like this is an insult. Everybody's perception is controlled by there mind. The only way to make true comparisons is a blind tasting. If you can judge a competition and pick all the extract beers from a flight simply on some malt flavor then maybe you've got something. I just don't see how that's possible. I brew extract and all my recipes taste different. There is just way too much flavor imparted from the different hops, steeping grains, yeasts for all extract beer to taste the same.

 

[MartinH]

Perhaps they have been brainwashed into thinking that using extract makes inferior beer."

I have tasted some great beer and I have not tasted all the extract brands. I have only try'd about 4 different extracts brands, which after making each one about 5 times I found that all of them had a base taste. I used steeping grains right way.. Only use the base kits about my frist 7 times.. Always used fresh hops!

"Perhaps the extract brewers know that they can make the best beer possible with less effort."

Like I said, its an event for me, I always try to make it easy and spend the less amount of money. Plus I'm a DIY'er I have no problem working hard for something so great!

But if you dont have the time still try to make the best damn beer you can!

"Don't underestimate steeping grains. You can do almost any flavor with steeping grains. The hops, water & yeast are the same for both AG and extract.

Its 2010!

 

[klyph]

"But the malting"

Well put!..........

 

[MartinH]

I brew extract and all my recipes taste different. There is just way too much flavor imparted from the different hops, steeping grains, yeasts for all extract beer to taste the same.

Ok, more then the majority of the beers that I make and tasted do have "for me" the same Malt background taste. I have drank a Vanilla Porter that was made form the same kits that I used and I didn't know..

So ya, a blind taste test would be the only true test..

 

[MartinH]

If I may add one more thought. I think my beer actually started tasting better when I bought a oxygen stone to aerate my wort. This coupled with proper pitch rates really helped the flavor of my beer. The AG was just a natural progression

Really an oxygen stone!! I will have to look into that!

 

[Revvy]

I've tasted plenty of bad AG brew. It not often that the problems could have been cured by using extract. More often then not the problems have more to do with things extract and AG brewers have in common like fermentation temps, pitching rates, infections, etc... The truth is extract vs AG is not a very important factor in the quality of beer.

Yep, as the local beer "doctor" I've tasted many a lousy AG and met many an ag brewer who was lazy and didn't work a serious process, cut corners wherever he could. And tasting some amazingly well crafted extracts and even mr beer beers.

I frequent a brew pub that uses extract and they make great beers.

And as the guy that answers a few questions about brewing here and there , I found just as many all grain brewers who's "mistakes" were about process, you know those folks who have to be told use a hydrometer. Just as many idiots brew AG as brew extract.

 

[Revvy]

Really an oxygen stone!! I will have to look into that!

Oh really, you mean you don't use one?

Gee, I was using one of them from about my second or third extract batch.

Maybe THAT's one of the reasons my extract batches taste just as good as my AG ones.

 

[shroomzofdoom]

As a new extract/partial brewer, but an experienced chef...let me tell you that when I make a meal from scratch and spend all day on it, it will taste better than if I had used pre-prepared ingredients. I make my own dough for pizza and the end result is 100 times better than any store bought dough, with very few exceptions (mistakes, bad yeast batch, etc)

Sorry gang---the painting analogy doesn't work for me---you don't eat paintings.

 

[Weezknight]

Ok, more then the majority of the beers that I make and tasted do have "for me" the same Malt background taste. I have drank a Vanilla Porter that was made form the same kits that I used and I didn't know..

So ya, a blind taste test would be the only true test..

Once again, I think it comes down to process and recipe.

My first extract brew was an Irish Red, and it came out perfect. If I was going to brew a stout next, I'm not going to use the same malt extract, steeping grains, or even the same yeast strain, and I'll guarantee it will be different.

It's not like I'm going to brew up the Irish Red recipe, toss in some dark roasted barley to make the brew black and call it a "stout."

Maybe the extract recipes that all tasted the same weren't brewed "to style," were underpitched, fermented improperly. The list could go on as to why they tasted similar, but I can't imagine it's only because they were extract.

 

[MartinH]

Oh really, you mean you don't use one?

Gee, I was using one of them from about my second or third extract batch.

Maybe THAT's one of the reasons my extract batches taste just as good as my AG ones.

Maybe, but then my AG would have the same taste too..

 

[Revvy]

As a new extract/partial brewer, but an experienced chef...let me tell you that when I make a meal from scratch and spend all day on it, it will taste better than if I had used pre-prepared ingredients. I make my own dough for pizza and the end result is 100 times better than any store bought dough, with very few exceptions (mistakes, bad yeast batch, etc)

Sorry gang---the painting analogy doesn't work for me---you don't eat paintings.

Yeah but according to the OP, you're just sh!tty extract brewer, so what do you really know about anything?

 

[Weezknight]

As a new extract/partial brewer, but an experienced chef...let me tell you that when I make a meal from scratch and spend all day on it, it will taste better than if I had used pre-prepared ingredients. I make my own dough for pizza and the end result is 100 times better than any store bought dough, with very few exceptions (mistakes, bad yeast batch, etc)

Sorry gang---the painting analogy doesn't work for me---you don't eat paintings.

The key part here is that you are an "experienced" chef. Someone who doesn't have their extract/partial process down, and is making bad beer, is not suddenly going to make great beer because they've "spent all day making it from scratch." I think that is the point people are making.

 

[Revvy]

The key part here is that you are an "experienced" chef. Someone who doesn't have their extract/partial process down, and is making bad beer, is not suddenly going to make great beer because they've "spent all day making it from scratch." I think that is the point people are making.

+1,000,000,000

 

[MartinH]

The key part here is that you are an "experienced" chef. Someone who doesn't have their extract/partial process down, and is making bad beer, is not suddenly going to make great beer because they've "spent all day making it from scratch." I think that is the point people are making.

Is anyone here a "Brew Master"..

If not the same to you..

 

[MartinH]

Overall, thanks I like the info!!

 

[shroomzofdoom]

Beer is like cooking for me. If you put love into it the end result is going to be great. My point was more like, if you are passionate about it--it will show in the final product. As when cooking, you try to seek the best available ingredients.

If using extracts, I would advise folks to find the freshest sources possible. I noticed a big difference in the canned variety that comes in packaged kits and the bulk kind from the high turnover 55G drum at the local u-brew.

 

[Synovia]

As a new extract/partial brewer, but an experienced chef...let me tell you that when I make a meal from scratch and spend all day on it, it will taste better than if I had used pre-prepared ingredients.

When you make chinese cuisine, do you brew your own soy sauce? Do you squeeze your own olives to make olive oil when you make italian? Do you grind your own flour? Refine your own sugar?


Have you had independent people taste your food vs commercial examples? Are you sure that your homemade food isn't just more to YOUR taste, and not actually "better"

Are you sure the fact that you have a vested interest isn't making your food taste better? Your mind will convince you of that (see cognitive dissonance)



I'm not really trying to take a shot at you, but most of the companies that make extract do a damn fine job.

 

[gtpro]

If there is one great reason for going AG, (and I am) it is that a majority of recipes are developed by AG brewers, hence they are AG recipes.

Extract brewing does not detract from quality one bit, only from variety.

 

[oceanselv]

AG feels more "homemade" and is much cheaper and much more versitile. Does this mean that the end product is better? No, but there are more options it seems.

Well said. Great brews are made using extract and all grain recipes. In my opinion there are 2 differences between the 2 styles. In all grain you have more control over the recipe and can make small but significant changes in the recipe. Also there are more gadgets and toys for all grain.

 

[Revvy]

If there is one great reason for going AG, (and I am) it is that a majority of recipes are developed by AG brewers, hence they are AG recipes.

And WHERE in the heck did you come up with THIS idiotic statistic? If you look around in the world of brewing you will find out that MORE BREWERS brew extract than brew all grain.

The ability to easily brew All grain is a relatively recent thing....Discoveries like turkey fryers and Cooler mash tuns in brewing are not that old, and those things have made AG brewing much easier for hobbiest. Prior to that only a few folks had the dedication and or patience to do it like papa Charlie did it in his book.

But people have been brewing with extract AND CREATING RECIPES for extract batches significantly longer that.

And MANY of your so called AG recipes, actually started as Extract recipes and then when the brewer shifted to AG, he THEN transposed his recipes into all grain...That's the case with at least a half dozen of my recipes, they were extract with grain recipes that I translated into AG much later.

Except for the two that still taste better as extract w/ grains than as ag.

 

[klyph]

Extract brewers are lazy slobs. I'll bet they give custom names to their kool-aid. Having just done my first all grain batch, I look down on extract brewers with disgust.

 

[BierMuncher]

As long as we’re not stomping on pink grapes and trying to make White Zin…it’s all good.

 

[thataintchicken]

Except for the two that still taste better as extract w/ grains than as ag.

You have a couple like that too eh?

The competition Hefeweizen is a time consuming, decoction monster.
The on tap, perfect for Raiding ICC Hefeweizen is an extract/grains make it before going to work simple recipe.

both rock hard with the clove and . Both taste great, and one sold out at the AHA convention last June. Care to guess which one it was?

 

[thataintchicken]

As long as we’re not stomping on pink grapes and trying to make White Zin…it’s all good.

you mean that's not how it is done?

 

[cheezydemon3]

I have brewed well over 50+ AG, I would not call myself lukcy.. Just precious...............

Congrats on that! I tried to be precious last year but it just didn't seem to suit me....(WTF?)

Actually I brew with extract & steeping grains, and I take my brewing VERY seriously. I take every step to ensure my product is great, including making sure I get fresh extract. I'm not really sure what you're getting at, but you're walking very closely on that line of claiming AG-brewers are superior for whatever reason.

Boy, I wish someone named Revvy would just write something on this very subject.......Oh Well.



My dreams of a 25 gallon session brew involved mashing all of the specialty grains my mash tun can hold, and boiling 5 gallons and 18 or so lbs of DME.(with hops of course)

I couldn't do a 25 gallon AG, but I can do extract and top up to 25 gallons.

+1 point for extract just from a practical standpoint..

 

[KYB]

I've only brewed 1 extract batch, which was my 2nd brew ever (1st was AG), only because it was a Gluten Free beer. I don't ever plan to do extract unless it's GF, although I'd rather be able to find some Sorghum and malt it myself. For everyone it's different, but for me, I enjoy making beer from scratch, all natural - grains, water, hops, and yeast. To me using extracts is like making a pie with premade crust, and canned apple pie filling. I'm not putting down extract brewing, but that is how I look at it and personally don't care for it.

 

[impatient]

Wow:rockin:

 

[gtpro]

And WHERE in the heck did you come up with THIS idiotic statistic? If you look around in the world of brewing you will find out that MORE BREWERS brew extract than brew all grain.

The ability to easily brew All grain is a relatively recent thing....Discoveries like turkey fryers and Cooler mash tuns in brewing are not that old, and those things have made AG brewing much easier for hobbiest.

Well I stand corrected, I'm just going by the fact that when I look in the recipes section of this website, most recipes are all-grain. That combined with the bold presumption that with AG you can make beer from different types of fresh malt rather than the pre-made syrup from a dusty can on the shelf at your LHBS.

I just feel like you can never truly "invent" beer until you brew with grain, its never really "your own beer."

If extract is so great why do commercial breweries use grain?

 

[Synovia]

To me using extracts is like making a pie with premade crust, and canned apple pie filling.

Yeah, its exactly like that, if the absolute best pie crust you can make is the same as the companies sell premade.

If your extract brews are coming out less than spectacular, either you're doing something wrong, or you're getting old ingredients.

 

[Synovia]

If extract is so great why do commercial breweries use grain?

Because its cheaper. Period.

 

[Weezknight]

That combined with the bold presumption that with AG you can make beer from different types of fresh malt rather than the pre-made syrup from a dusty can on the shelf at your LHBS.

I just feel like you can never truly "invent" beer until you brew with grain, its never really "your own beer."

If extract is so great why do commercial breweries use grain?

That's why you need to find a supplier who sells fresh extract, and not a dusty old can off a shelf.

And a lot of times you're not even "inventing" anything, since, chances are, the base grains that you're mashing are probably the same things that have already been mashed into the extract. 2-row, is the same whether you mash it, or someone else does it for you.

The beer truly becomes your own when you add certain levels of specialty grains, adjuncts, sugars, spices, hops, special yeast strains, and (most importantly) when you sanitize, ferment, and bottle/keg properly.

 

[Whut]

+1,000

I think people who do AG who feel the need to diss extract don't realize that the reason their original extract batches tasted like crap to them was NOT that extract recipes/beers suck, it's that their process as brewers sucked.

Amen! I've only been at this for a couple of years but I do both. And yes, I still consider myself a noob.

 

[FxdGrMind]

I've made good if not great PM and I'm into my 2nd AG (not yet tasted).

I consider it a learning experience going from easy DME+hops to PM and now AG. I want to learn how each item affects the taste, flavors, aromas, mouth feel, etc etc. I had to start with DME+hops as I just needed a way to break into brewing with a relatively simple way.

The Progression to PM then AG is just something I need to do so I can understand the influences of all the aspects of the ingredients involved in brewing.

Back to the original question: Will I ever go back to DME or LME??

Sure I will, As soon as I fully understand the variations and the roles of all the ingredients. Why do AG to get something you can get already done... "Conversion" without the time and hassle?

I'll probably do all 3, DME/LME, PM and AG, it will always depend on the recipe and what my desired end product needs. Nothing more/less.

Cheers and happy brewing to all, no matter the process they use... It's still BEER!

 

[gtpro]

Alright guys, it got a little hostile there. . .I'm really not saying that AG is better, especially since I'm an extract brewer. I just cant get away from the notion that the harder you work to produce something, the better the end result.

I've made 3 kick ass beers with extract, they each took just over an hour to brew. . .that just doesnt seem like long enough. Besides, the cost effectiveness of all grain is very attractive to me. Who knows, maybe AG will kick my ass and I'll be right back to the dusty can.

 

[Saccharomyces]

I still do partial mashes from time to time for a quick 5 gallon batch when I don't want to drag out all of my equipment for a 10 gallon AG batch. Still makes great beer, I just don't do it often because extract is expensive and I typically have over 300# of grain on hand.

 

[klyph]

The fun of homebrewing is doing it yourself. AG isn't "better" than extract, but I think it is more fun. I also think it would be fun to grow your own barley, malt it, and brew with it, but that's outside my means. As long as you're doing something you enjoy, it's all cool with me.

 

[maida7]

The fun of homebrewing is doing it yourself. AG isn't "better" than extract, but I think it is more fun. I also think it would be fun to grow your own barley, malt it, and brew with it, but that's outside my means. As long as you're doing something you enjoy, it's all cool with me.

I thought the fun part was the drinking

 

[Steelers77]

AG in my opinion is more like cooking from scratch and that's why I like to do it. It being less expensive is a bonus but was not the main reason I started doing it.
Anyway, I think this thread should end. It's almost like hearing Democrats and Republicans argue, just never going to agree.