poor attenuation with S04

[TrickyDick]

Wondering is this is salvageable.
Did a English Brown ale and used properly rehydrated S04. Fairly typical grain bill with mash at 154
12 days into fermentation I have gone from 1.049 to 1.020 (58% AE, minimum reported is 71%), where is has been for at least the past 3 days. Fermented at 68º with swings between -1/+2.
Unfortunately, I have dumped most of the yeast from the bottom in order to get a clean sample to measure, twice.
There is still some yeast in suspension for sure.
Pitch more rehydrated yeast?

If this was a 1.090 OG double bock I might not mind, but its not.


TD

 

[WoodlandBrew]

Interesting. It could be the mash being a little too warm, or yeast vitality. How long did the yeast float when it was rehydrated? What was the volume of wort? When did you dump the yeast the first time?

 

[Yooper]

I don't use S04 much anymore but it's never been underattenuated for me. I'm wondering if your mash temp was higher than 154, and that left a lot of unfermentables.

 

[masskrug]

"properly re-hydrated"?

Why did you re-hydrate? Unnecessary? Possibly a problem there?

 

[TrickyDick]

"properly re-hydrated"?

Why did you re-hydrate? Unnecessary? Possibly a problem there?

Not according to Chris White. I followed his instructions from his book, "yeast".
I'm not going to say that I didn't just pitch it dry in the past without problems, but after reading the book, I always rehydrate dry yeast now. By not rehydrating, you end up killing a lot of the dry yeast cells in the sachet by pitching directly into wort, ending up under pitching possibly. Did you read his book or have some information to the contrary? It seems to make sense to me, and after all, he does know a thing or two about yeast. I've been half tempted to setup a Bunsen burner and get a yeast table to verify cell counts and viability, but I'm not quite there yet. Need to get my exhaust hood for indoor brewing first. Then would be a short step to the yeast lab.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Interesting. It could be the mash being a little too warm, or yeast vitality. How long did the yeast float when it was rehydrated? What was the volume of wort? When did you dump the yeast the first time?

I honestly don't really know.

I didn't take notes on the yeast rehydration, I just followed the steps from the yeast book by White. 11 gallons of 1.049 OG wort I dumped the yeast at day 10.

Mash was not too hot. Continually recirculated over a thermocouple and cross verified with a dial type thermometer.

Could possibly be wort pH. I was lazy and didn't check it, but I can't imagine it would be solely responsible for 58% AE. I'm not sure if I under oxygenated. I do inject through a stone pure O2, usually for 90 seconds-120 seconds after the wort has chilled.

I sort of wonder if the yeast flocculated prematurely. The conical was next to the glycol reservoir and could have been slightly cooler than intended. I will check the BCS temp logs and see if that could be it. That's about all I can think of though.

It's really strange.

Thanks for the troubleshooting help!

 

[TrickyDick]

I don't use S04 much anymore but it's never been underattenuated for me. I'm wondering if your mash temp was higher than 154, and that left a lot of unfermentables.

Seems unlikely in my setup. I'm frankly not sure what it was. PH? I was lazy and didn't check. At any rate, all I have now is premature floculating yeast from being next to the glycol reservoir. The conical is insulated, but maybe it settled out too soon. I've heard that can happen with S04.

Well, I ended up pitching some slurry from another fermenter that has a clean dry profile. Since I'm already at 58%, I'm hoping that the ester profile is preserved from what's already fermented, and the other yeast can get down another 12-15%. I used the west coast IPA wyeast strain about 75-100 ml of slurry..

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Well half a day later and SG hasn't budged.
I am starting to suspect that it was lack of sufficient oxygenation. I believe that my Oxygen cylinder may have run empty and I didn't realize it, during the oxygenation step. I'm giving it another 5 days. I added a few drops of light olive oil, which has worked in the past when I totally forgot to oxygenate.

TD

 

[day_trippr]

I gotta say I've always found S04 to be a total beast.
And when this topic first popped up I steered hard left.

Unless that yeast was way out of date and/or had been horribly mistreated at some point since leaving the production facility, I'd be looking for some other reason(s) for out-of-spec attenuation. My guess is there were multiple factors, each contributing a couple/few points..

Cheers!

 

[Yooper]

I gotta say I've always found S04 to be a total beast.
And when this topic first popped up I steered hard left.

Unless that yeast was way out of date and/or had been horribly mistreated at some point since leaving the production facility, I'd be looking for some other reason(s) for out-of-spec attenuation. My guess is there were multiple factors, each contributing a couple/few points..

Cheers!

Yes, me too. I have never had S04 take more than 5 days to fully attenuate, and it's usually faster.

This seems so basic so I hate to ask, but did you check the reading with a hydrometer, and then double check that the hydrometer was reading 1.000 in water?

 

[ncbrewer]

Well half a day later and SG hasn't budged.
I am starting to suspect that it was lack of sufficient oxygenation. I believe that my Oxygen cylinder may have run empty and I didn't realize it, during the oxygenation step. I'm giving it another 5 days. I added a few drops of light olive oil, which has worked in the past when I totally forgot to oxygenate.

TD

I hope you'll post the results.

 

[TrickyDick]

Every time I've used S04 in the past it has also worked like a beast. Not sure what happened this time

 

[Hoosierbrewer]

I used it on oatmeal stout and mild. It took it awhile. It finally fell to target og after 3 weeks

 

[g-star]

If you overshot your mash temp by a few degrees and your grainbill had a lot of unfermentables (crystal, roasted malts), that type of attenuation wold be expected for S-04.

 

[TrickyDick]

If you overshot your mash temp by a few degrees and your grainbill had a lot of unfermentables (crystal, roasted malts), that type of attenuation wold be expected for S-04.

I didn't overshoot the mash temp. 18% specialty malts. Is victory malt (5.5%) considered fermentable? I believe it is, as it is recommended to be mashed and usage up to 25%. I've never used it before. Beersmith predicts a lower FG than what I hit.

I'm thinking oxygenation was problematic.
I'm checking gravity again today. If its still high, I'm just going to keg it and call it a mild.

TD

 

[unionrdr]

That is strange for S-04. I use it in my ESB & it fermented out & was clearing in 10 days flat! I rehydrated it in spring water nuked in my flask to 93F. Sprinkled it in to sit for 15 minutes per directions. Then stirred it in for about 15 minutes more. Stirred it & pitched at high krausen. It started visibly fermenting in about 3 hours. It's also meritorious to pitch within 10 degrees of current wort temp to prevent shocking the yeast.

 

[MXDXD]

Odd. But I say that and I never even bothered to check out any S-4 fermented wort before two weeks. And that was a 1.030 Mild Ale.

The mash is hot but not that hot... And ferment temperature was definitely in the high range for S-4,/so that's definitely not the problem.

 

[TrickyDick]

Hasn't budged in last 4 days.
I kegged it last night and racked the other half of my 10 gallon batch into a carboy for lack of free keg space. Will see what happens to that half. I suspect that nothing will happen. Next time I brew that particular beer, I'll mash at 148 and see if that was the culprit.

I followed the yeast hydration steps from the book Yeast, which included pitching within 15 degree of the target temp, which I did, I think it was actually within 5 degrees. Who knows. Maybe the yeast was old and poorly stored or transported before I received it. Pitching the Wyeast West Coast IPA slurry didn't do a thing to the gravity though.

Well, even at 1.020, it doesn't taste too cloying, in fact its pretty good. Half tempted to pitch some of the Dirty Dozen and Bug County into that carboy. Will see how much I enjoy drinking the half thats kegged before commiting to that though.

TD

 

[hunter_le five]

I've had S-04 crap out on me at 1.020 a couple times in the past, both times on the same recipe (an ESB). Pretty sure I hit my mash temps and everything else just fine, so I never was able to figure out what caused it. Maybe something in the grain bill it didn't agree with.

Both beers tasted perfectly fine though. Someone once told me you have to mash a tad low when using S-04; I don't know if that's good advice or not, but it suggests this person may have had similar issues that I had/that you are having.

Then again I've used S-04 other times without any issue at all. Go figure.

 

[ncbrewer]

I followed the yeast hydration steps from the book Yeast, which included pitching within 15 degree of the target temp, which I did, I think it was actually within 5 degrees.

Did you attemperate to the target temperature quickly? I asked Danstar (different yeast company, but might be applicable) about it and got this response: "Our technical manager suggests that you don't go longer than 30 minutes after the start of rehydration before pitching the yeast into wort as the yeast needs nutrients. If there is a delay you could actually add more wort to the rehydration water to give the yeast something to eat while you are waiting to pitch it, so long as it isn't too hot."

 

[soccerdad]

I had a similar thing with 04 ... but I was also dumb enough to use a packet dated Sept 14. Took my oatmeal stout from 1052 to 1019. Haven't checked in a few days so maybe it's a bit better now. I also think I started it low - like 60 degrees. Might have done better at 65. You'll get beer either way ! I will too - I think around 4% abv which no one gets killed over - you just beat yourself up.

 

[Gavin C]

Just had the same issue yesterday evening. Took a sample of an ESB after 4+ weeks in the primary. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f64/common-room-esb-83878/

Went from OG 1.050 to 1.018. No longer an ESB.

My target mash was 154. My target OG was 1.054 so clearly off the mark.

I have not used this yeast before but know it has a very solid reputation. Makes me question my mash technique, oxygenation etc. Like the OP I rehydrated as per the manufacturer's instructions. With 1lb of crystal malt mashed a little too high, could this be the source of my error?

I plan to redo this recipe with an alternative yeast to see what changes or improvements I can make. This is my first brew using Maris Otter so was interested to see what it might be like. Sample looked and tasted decent

With an ABV of 4.2% (Beersmith calc) it hopefully will still be an OK beer.

 

[guldalian]

I used s-04 in a Christmas brown that got 75% attenuation (1.051-1.013). I then used the slurry from that batch to ferment both a milk stout and a coffee stout. Milk got like 58% atten (1.052-1.022) and coffee got 66% (1.060-1.020). I expected the milk to be lower atten bc, well it's a milk stout. There was a lb of lactose in it and a heap of specialty grains with a mash of 154. But not quite that low. And the coffee was surprising. Idk what happened. I usually get significantly higher atten when using 2nd gen yeast.

 

[m00ps]

I stopped using s-04 entirely when I discovered it was the culprit of a number of my batches that developed off flavors. From my research, it looks like the occasional bad batch goes out so I found very mixed results using it.

Now I use liquid yeasts and occasionally us-05, but I'd recommend staying away from it. It doesnt have a good english character. My first ESB was with s-04, very sub par. My latest one has a great authentic English flavor using WY1318

 

[Gavin C]

I used s-04 in a Christmas brown that got 75% attenuation (1.051-1.013). I then used the slurry from that batch to ferment both a milk stout and a coffee stout. Milk got like 58% atten (1.052-1.022) and coffee got 66% (1.060-1.020). I expected the milk to be lower atten bc, well it's a milk stout. There was a lb of lactose in it and a heap of specialty grains with a mash of 154. But not quite that low. And the coffee was surprising. Idk what happened. I usually get significantly higher atten when using 2nd gen yeast.

I stopped using s-04 entirely when I discovered it was the culprit of a number of my batches that developed off flavors. From my research, it looks like the occasional bad batch goes out so I found very mixed results using it.

Now I use liquid yeasts and occasionally us-05, but I'd recommend staying away from it. It doesnt have a good english character. My first ESB was with s-04, very sub par. My latest one has a great authentic English flavor using WY1318

That sounds similar to my own unscientific sample size of 1. I still think it is more my methodology at fault rather than an issue with the s-04 due in a large part to my inexperience. Having said that I would be somewhat reluctant to use it again given the arguably better options available.

 

[guldalian]

That sounds similar to my own unscientific sample size of 1. I still think it is more my methodology at fault rather than an issue with the s-04 due in a large part to my inexperience. Having said that I would be somewhat reluctant to use it again given the arguably better options available.

That's exactly how I feel about 1469 Yorkshire.

 

[GFBrewboy]

Could I get other opinions? Brewed Imperial Stout (Northern Brewer extract kit) with S-04 dry sprinkled on wort foam after vigorous pours to aerate. Forgot to use yeast nutrient. SG was 1.090 (kit target 1.086). Ferm proceeded nicely with temps 59-64 deg. Vigorous activity for few days (required blowoff) and then stable gravity of 1.034 after 6-8 days. Racked to secondary because stable. Tastes good.

Called NB because final gravity seems high (62% attenuation). Guy said no target FG and suggested possibly adding yeast nutrient or more yeast and move to warmer temp. My first stout. Should I leave as is (planning 3 months in secondary)? In general, is it a good idea to add nutrient at this point? Thanks for you input.

 

[hunter_le five]

Could I get other opinions? Brewed Imperial Stout (Northern Brewer extract kit) with S-04 dry sprinkled on wort foam after vigorous pours to aerate. Forgot to use yeast nutrient. SG was 1.090 (kit target 1.086). Ferm proceeded nicely with temps 59-64 deg. Vigorous activity for few days (required blowoff) and then stable gravity of 1.034 after 6-8 days. Racked to secondary because stable. Tastes good.

Called NB because final gravity seems high (62% attenuation). Guy said no target FG and suggested possibly adding yeast nutrient or more yeast and move to warmer temp. My first stout. Should I leave as is (planning 3 months in secondary)? In general, is it a good idea to add nutrient at this point? Thanks for you input.

You dry sprinkled a single packet of S-04 into an imperial stout? Sounds like you waaaaay underpitched. Probably should've used two packets, and rehydrated before pitching.

Adding more yeast with a bit of nutrient and warming a bit *might* help, but I wouldn't just add nutrient at this point.

 

[GFBrewboy]

Appreciate your input, hunter la_5. Correct, just 1 pack dry sprinkled. I see that more yeast should have pitched! Not enough to handle the load. After 2 days at 68-70 deg (days 11-12), there is no airlock activity (ie yeast not reactivated). Thinking to add another sachet of S-04 (hydrated) - or is half packet sufficient? Thinking that come bottling time in 3 months, will need some viable yeast left in solution to carbonate. Seem correct?