Poll: Do you have, or plan to get, an electric car?

[RePete]

Is the tax credit still going for the Bolt? Do you know if the upcoming Bolt EUV be considered a different enough vehicle that it gets the full tax credit, or do existing Bolt sales count against it?

They were mostly used up from Volt sales. It’s based on EV sales for an entire company, not individual models. In lieu of that, Chevy is offering incentives which are about the same amount.

 

[mattdee1]

I'm just going to put this here.

Cool PR stunt, but it doesn't prove what Tesla's marketing department thinks it proves.

I say "marketing department" because I refuse to believe that Tesla engineers actually think this demonstration would impress anybody who paid attention in high school physics class.

The Ford probably weighs about 5,000 lbs and for some reason they picked a model with only rear wheel drive.

I don't know what the Tesla weighs, but with its rugged construction and battery pack, it's going to be at least 7,500 lbs, maybe over 8,000 lbs.

With standard unloaded weight distribution, only about 35% of the Ford's weight is carried by the rear (driven) axle. Which in this case would equate to about 0.35 x 5000 = 1,750lbs.

The Tesla's entire 7500(ish) lbs weight is supported by driven axles because both axles are driven.

The static coefficient of friction for a rubber tire on dry road is about 0.8. This is important because it places physical limits on how much tractive force each vehicle can put down to the road before the onset of tire slippage.

Max tractive force (Ford) = coefficient of friction x load on driven axle = 0.8 x 1,750 = 1,400 lbs

Max tractive force (Tesla) = coefficient of friction x weight of vehicle = 0.8 x 7,500 = 6,000 lbs

As we can see, the laws of physics say that the Tesla can transmit much more force to the road - and thus "pull the Ford - just by virtue of the fact that it's heavier and has 4 wheel drive. In other words, the flashy results of this demonstration show absolutely nothing meaningful about the brute strength (or lack thereof) of either truck's propulsion system.

Another thing I find humorous about this demonstration is that it almost looks like they've got the trucks on an incline, presumably to lend the impression that the Tesla is not only pulling the Ford around, but doing so UPHILL! In reality, if the road is indeed slanted, it's actually handicapping the Ford because in that orientation even less of the vehicle's weight is on the rear axle, and less traction is available.

There are clear and unquestionable advantages to electric traction motors vs. internal combustion engines, particularly in low-speed torque showdowns like this. Which is why I find it rather disappointing that Tesla would resort to an obvious sleight of hand like this demonstration to generate publicity. But I suppose they probably have a few million wrapped up in that prototype and don't want to abuse it too much. There's also the "no publicity is bad publicity" angle as well.

 

[NGD]

@mattdee1 Still looks cool and even trended for a few days..which was likely the intention. Teslas marketing dept are good at their jobs.

 

[brewbama]

The electricity produced is by fossil fuel and the batteries are toxic when disposal time comes. It’s a false sense of ‘green’ to buy an elec car.

 

[Bilsch]

The electricity produced is by fossil fuel and the batteries are toxic when disposal time comes. It’s a false sense of ‘green’ to buy an elec car.

Oh here we go again.

 

[brewbama]

Oh here we go again.

I guess there’s more than one opinion on the matter. I evidently don’t share yours.


enjoy:

 

[NGD]

@mattdee1 for some reason or another this part didn't post. Likely a user ID-10T error.

I also found it interesting that they used a 2wd ford f-150. Judging by the weight and power, an f-350 or f-450 would have been a better equivalent. i’m sure ot had nothing to do with the f-150 being the best selling truck in America at the time.

 

[NGD]

A bit OT, but for the others with PEV’s how does the charging mode affect your mileage while your driving. By this I mean the engine charging while driving and not regen from the brakes. Toyota has a “charging” mode that diverts a significant portion of the power to the battery, but absolutely kills your mileage (roughly 35mpg) if your driving at highway speeds (for me thats 70-80mph). Curious what the Rex, Volts etc do for this. I’m honestly not sure WTH toyotas charging mode is supposed to do except keep the battery pack from getting to low.
I tried this on a roadtrip before I found out that the prime will indeed recharge at 70 if on flat ground in hybrid mode. I can drive 200 miles in hybrid mode and end up a few percentage points higher while getting 60-65mpg.

 

[RePete]

A bit OT, but for the others with PEV’s how does the charging mode affect your mileage while your driving. By this I mean the engine charging while driving and not regen from the brakes. Toyota has a “charging” mode that diverts a significant portion of the power to the battery, but absolutely kills your mileage (roughly 35mpg) if your driving at highway speeds (for me thats 70-80mph). Curious what the Rex, Volts etc do for this. I’m honestly not sure WTH toyotas charging mode is supposed to do except keep the battery pack from getting to low.
I tried this on a roadtrip before I found out that the prime will indeed recharge at 70 if on flat ground in hybrid mode. I can drive 200 miles in hybrid mode and end up a few percentage points higher while getting 60-65mpg.

The Volt has 4 modes. Normal, Sport, Mountain, or Hold. Hold uses the engine and maintains current charge. Sport is fun, but uses more battery.

Mountain builds charge if the batteries are depleted, but only up about 50%. The engine seems to run at a faster pace than it normally would. It doesn't save fuel, but is more designed to provide extra power for going up long inclines.

 

[Bilsch]

I guess there’s more than one opinion on the matter. I evidently don’t share yours.

Yes there certainly are lots of opinions on the subject. And thank you for the video from 2016. Here is one more recent. P.S. When I was in grade school in the mid 70's, we still had text books that said, "Someday we will put a man on the moon".

 

[kh54s10]

When I was looking at getting my car I did wonder whether I'd be stuck replacing the high-voltage battery someday.

While I was car shopping I spoke to a Volt owner who had driven his car for over 200,000 miles and had never had an issue with his high-voltage battery. He wanted to buy another Volt and have one of his kids start driving the old one when he got his license.

Then I saw this. The GM exec did exaggerate the claim, but even after they clarified what Barra meant, it still sounds like the batteries are pretty solid. And as I was looking for a new or gently used vehicle, and I only intend to put 120,000 miles on it (give or take) before selling/trading it, I figured I was in pretty good shape.

There are miles, recharge cycles and time... The differences on whether you would need to replace the battery in your time could vary dramatically.

 

[kh54s10]

May I direct you to your own post, #101, where you mentioned EV carbon footprint. Last time I checked nuclear does not produce any carbon emissions so... thats 39% of the grid that is not producing CO2. I'm a big fan of Nuclear precisely because it isn't causing global warming. I think we should have more electricity made this way.

Ok how about this place.
https://www.retrievtech.com/lithiumionor this one
https://www.batteryrecyclersofamerica.com/electrical-vehicle-battery-recycling/or here
https://cleanlites.com/our-services/battery-recycling/lithium-ion-battery-recycling

Nuclear has it's own problems, making it's "green" footprint questionable, but you are right it doesn't add to co2 footprint. I am torn on nuclear. It is clean, with a couple of exceptions it is safe, but there is the problem to do with storing the waste material.

But again semantics... Arguing over the percentage still doesn't negate that electric vehicles still contribute to co2 production.

2 of those three links do not say what percentage is recyclable, the third says near 100% But they are talking of all types of recyclable batteries. They also don't say what is in the rest, how toxic it may be and what they do with it.

 

[Kent88]

There are miles, recharge cycles and time... The differences on whether you would need to replace the battery in your time could vary dramatically.

Sure there are differences, and odd things can happen. I could hit a deer with it tomorrow.

But it seems pretty rare that GM high-voltage EV batteries need to be replaced. And in many cases it seems like GM has owned up to it before it became a big issue for the vehicle owners.

Over 200,000 vehicles with batteries, and the replacements from suspected wear outs is a tenth of a percent.

I think it took me 8 years to rack up the kind of miles on my last car that it'll take for me to trade this one off. It's possible I'll have to replace the battery, but it seems unlikely.

Won't know until either it happens or I trade it. And heck, it might be that by the time my car's battery wears out that the price of new batteries will have dropped.

Edit: this is all about what I have seen / read about so far. Obviously these batteries won't last forever.

 

[binabik]

I guess there’s more than one opinion on the matter. I evidently don’t share yours.


enjoy:

I do think that it is interesting that the two videos reach two different conclusions. And this video does not take into account the building of the car and mining the lithium. That said it's still good information. Same with Solar Panels. I like the technology and what it can do though I think it is still not as
efficient as it needs to be to make a real difference.

While I would like an electric car it is not to be more green, its for the technology side of it. Though I don't really trust Elon Musk and Tesla's Privacy Policy, though it is far better than Google's (Lack of) Privacy Policy.

 

[Kent88]

... This video does not take into account the building of the car and mining the lithium. That said it's still good information. Same with Solar Panels. I like the technology and what it can do though I think it is still not as
efficient as it needs to be to make a real difference.

Not really sure about the differences in pollution produced by building ICE vehicles vs EVs. I would expect that they're not very different.

Fossil fuel extraction and handling, isn't terribly clean, never has been.

I'm far from an expert on fossil fuel collection vs lithium mining.

And I don't think you'd get an argument from anyone that solar should become more efficient, but it's already pretty darn efficient, and has a lot of potential to become more efficient.

 

[RePete]

Do some research into PragerU. The position the video takes on this isn't the least bit surprising. I don't know about the other one.

 

[NGD]

And I don't think you'd get an argument from anyone that solar should become more efficient, but it's already pretty darn efficient, and has a lot of potential to become more efficient.

They are actually quite inefficient. Best panels on the market currently are 20-23% efficient with an average loss between 0.5-0.8% efficiency per year. I wish it was better because half my home is shaded by tall redwood trees for half the day and kills any ROI I could get on purchasing a solar system.

 

[Kent88]

What sort or spectrum of efficiency are you citing?

 

[Bilsch]

The efficiency of the panels isn't really a factor, only the cost per watt. Who cares if they have to put on an extra panel if it's cheap?

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

The efficiency of the panel doesn't matter as much, given that they're using an inexhaustible [in our lifetime] energy source. From a "green" perspective, solar makes huge sense because I've heard no downsides to solar panel production from an environmental perspective and any energy produced comes from a source of energy that is basically 100% wasted without panels. 23% is way better than 0%, right?

At that point it becomes a question of install cost vs payback time. Inefficient panels make THAT calculation worse, so any improvements to efficiency make huge strides as it relates to the economic calculation a homeowner faces when asking whether he/she should install panels.

 

[RePete]

I wanted to install solar panels last year. But, we have some big trees. A guy came out, put up his light meter, and said "don't bother". It was a dissappointment. I may get another opinion.

 

[SanPancho]

when do we get electric trucks that dont like a ******* mars rover?
I mean seriously. WTF

 

[Bilsch]

when do we get electric trucks that dont like a ****ing mars rover?
I mean seriously. WTF

Very soon.
https://rivian.com/

 

[Kent88]

I don't like ford, but here is a link to what Ford is doing:

Ford F-150 Electric Pickup Truck: Everything We Know - Launch, Specs

 

[corkybstewart]

Where I live charging stations are almost impossible to find. And since town is a 30 mile roundtrip, most doctor visits are 300 mile roundtrips, and the nearest real airport is 200 miles away an electric car makes little sense. Having said that we also have a house in France that we will be spending several months each year at when my wife retires. Charging stations are everywhere. In our village there is a community owned bar-all proceeds go to their version of the PTA. There's a guy from a neighboring village who's there almost every Wednesday night because the charging station outside the bar costs him about $.40, and it takes just long enough for him to leisurely drink 2 beers. Over there it would certainly make sense to have an electric car, over here it doesn't.

 

[corkybstewart]

fossil fuel is a made up name. They've been telling us for around 50yrs now that its non sustainable and we're gonna run out. funny how we've never run out! even with increased usage in those last 50 or so years.

As a guy who just retired from 40 years in the oilfields I assure you there will always be petroleum based fuels, but it will not always be affordable. Somebody will maintain a small niche refinery for those people who refuse to give up their stinky, nasty internal combustion powered vehicles. But the cost will be enormous. When it will happen I can't know, but it will.

 

[NGD]

What sort or spectrum of efficiency are you citing?

I'm referring to the efficiency of power produced by the panel in relation to typical home application. I'm aware there are PV cells that are capable of double the best monocrystalline cells on the market for use in aerospace. However a panel that loses 0.8 efficancy per annum is banking on power rates to rise significantly over the next decade+. As I stated earlier, unfortunatley for my home due to position and surrounding trees my ROI would be well into 15 years even with the exorbitant rates I'm currently paying. Granted if they keep rising as they have been, solar + battery bank is going to start looking really good soon.

The efficiency of the panels isn't really a factor, only the cost per watt. Who cares if they have to put on an extra panel if it's cheap?
View attachment 693848

Efficiency of the panel does factor. If you buy a low efficiency panel to begin with, the ability of that panel to produce energy in 10-15 years will be a fair amount more impacted than a higher quality panel, but there is the tradeoff of upfront cost

So I started this reply on my home PC awhile ago and our local utility shut the power down to 200k people in rolling blackouts across Northern California. Since its dusk, solar would not have helped unless we had a way to store power. 20kw gen may might be ordered soon

 

[Kent88]

I'm referring to the efficiency of power produced by the panel in relation to typical home application. I'm aware there are PV cells that are capable of double the best monocrystalline cells on the market for use in aerospace. However a panel that loses 0.8 efficancy per annum is banking on power rates to rise significantly over the next decade+.

Huh? I'm neither an electrician nor an engineer. I'm afraid I need it dumbed down a bit further.

So I started this reply on my home PC awhile ago and our local utility shut the power down to 200k people in rolling blackouts across Northern California. Since its dusk, solar would not have helped unless we had a way to store power. 20kw gen may might be ordered soon

Maybe some wind turbines would have helped?

I've also heard that electric car batteries that are no longer road-worthy can find new life as home power storage.

 

[NGD]

If I had a EV vehicle right now, I would
Be stressed about making it to work tomorrow. Last time they did a power shutoff due to “wind”, it lasted 55hrs.

 

[NGD]

Maybe some wind turbines would have helped?

If only there was the slightest breeze right now.

I've also heard that electric car batteries that are no longer road-worthy can find new life as home power storage.

Tempted to see how long I can run 2 refrigerators on an 8kw Prius battery.