Poll: Do you have, or plan to get, an electric car?

[Broothru]

I was thinking it may have just been one. It was a funky looking little roadster type vehicle. Front bucket seats and a rear bench as I recall. Tiny little up front IC engine and conventional drivetrain of sorts, and an under-carriage driveshaft that spun a submerged prop on the back. The front and rear sloped up to accommodate entering and exiting a shoreline embankment.

I thought it looked like a Sunbeam Alpine with rear seats. LBJ used to load up a few unsuspecting first-time visitors to the ranch, take ‘em for a joyride across some pasture, and then fake going out of control and plunge into a nearby pond. Weird sense of humor.

Found a picture:

Lyndon Johnson Played Terrifying Prank With His Amphicar

 

[Thorrak]

We’re potentially going to become a 2 car household, and my experience with the Tesla has me seriously considering a PHEV assuming I can get one cheap. My 7 mile commute would finally let me make the “I’ve only bought one tank of gas” comment

 

[Kent88]

Hey, I noticed a post in another thread and I hope the author doesn't give me grief for responding here

What happens when the average family (2 working parents, 2 high school kiddies) all get home and want to charge their cars.

I assume that, if we don't have a software solution in the next few years, some 'triage' will have to be done. But before that, maybe the family considers how they can reduce the trips they're making. It could be a good day to carpool, or take the bus, or bike. Perhaps they will decide that someone needs to use public charging that day. Maybe the high schoolers live close enough to school that their round trip will be covered by plugging into a regular, household outlet overnight. Hopefully at least one parent lives close enough to their work that they don't need much for the next day. But I think it starts with attentive parenting, family communication, and knowing what your vehicles can do.

I'm really having trouble envisioning the amount of power required into that average home to make that happen overnight.

It wouldn't surprise me if the average changed over time.

Also, a lot of people don't park in their garage (I get 3 cars in there, but that's not typical). How does the one or two in the driveway get charged? I guess you have the charging station outside somewhere? I really don't know.

In places with lots of apartments and no access to a garage, landlords might see a benefit to offering charging in the parking lot, or we might need to get creative finding more public charging spots.

 

[passedpawn]

I'm not gonna comment on the "mom and dad carpool with neighbors and jody and buffy ride their bikes". But to suggest the average power required by a home might change over time, that one I can get behind. Seems obvious. It's gonna go much higher.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

Standardized battery packs that take 30 seconds to swap in and out at a gas station would go a long way to addressing most concerns about how long it takes to recharge. Kinda like the propane tank exchanges many gas stations around here in Minnesota do.

 

[Thorrak]

I'm not gonna comment on the "mom and dad carpool with neighbors and jody and buffy ride their bikes". But to suggest the average power required by a home might change over time, that one I can get behind. Seems obvious. It's gonna go much higher.

I’m about to leave for work, but this seems like a reasonable question to answer with some napkin-math. Our car takes ~280Wh/mi (supposedly) so if you multiply that by the average aggregate household commute you would get a daily power drain for charging. Compare that to peak-to-trough daytime vs. nighttime power usage and see which is greater.

I’m guessing EV usage, but not by much…

Standardized battery packs that take 30 seconds to swap in and out at a gas station would go a long way to addressing most concerns about how long it takes to recharge. Kinda like the propane tank exchanges many gas stations around here in Minnesota do.

I think Tesla did that briefly, and it never caught on. With the unibody construction (and other techniques where the battery forms part of the car’s structure) it seems like we’re rapidly moving away from this being an option, unfortunately.

 

[day_trippr]

Thinking about the traffic at my local gas station even out here in the wilderness, I don't think the "pack swap" paradigm could ever work with current battery tech, even if there was standardization at the pack level that made the swap time as short as the typical time to fill an ICE vehicle. My little station would need to keep hundreds of packs on hand and have the charge capability to manage them all. Seems overwhelming to me...

Cheers!

 

[Kent88]

I'm not gonna comment on the "mom and dad carpool with neighbors and jody and buffy ride their bikes".

I didn't suggest that scenario. I just gave a list of options. And I started off by suggesting that there will be software solutions to the issues soon. I also ended by emphasizing how communication is important. I didn't explicitly state it, but everyone knowing everyone else's schedule could help avoid situations like these. If Jody and Buffy know that mom & dad need the charger on Wednesday, they might make different decisions on Monday and Tuesday that keep them from needing to charge that night.

But let's say they all let themselves get to low and they can't all charge. The most plausible solution is that the kids don't get to fast charge unless someone uses public charging.

I remember being a teenager and rarely being able to completely fill my gas tank. Driving to school was a privilege for me. I'm sure that if my family had been caught in a situation like that, I would have had to ride the bus. And I'm sure my parents would have explained to me that I needed to pay closer attention to my fuel level, plan ahead, and remember that they need to be able to charge, while it was a luxury for me to be able to drive to school.

If one of my siblings had been close enough in age and we didn't have conflicting after school activities, I'm sure we would've had to carpool. But if mom and dad needed to charge in this hypothetical, they would have been the ones changing.

And I'm sure that two vehicles charging simultaneously is going to be pretty common. I'm pretty sure that there is already charging equipment that can handle that.

Something weird would have to happen for everyone to leave their vehicle in the garage/driveway the next morning.

 

[mac_1103]

If Jody and Buffy know that mom & dad need the charger on Wednesday, they might make different decisions on Monday and Tuesday that keep them from needing to charge that night.

If you're talking about the same Jody and Buffy who always bring the ICE cars back home running on fumes and expect Mom and Dad to gas them up, then I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[Airborneguy]

Standardized battery packs that take 30 seconds to swap in and out at a gas station would go a long way to addressing most concerns about how long it takes to recharge. Kinda like the propane tank exchanges many gas stations around here in Minnesota do.

Terrible inconvenience over home charging. May as well stick with gas.

 

[Kent88]

If you're talking about the same Jody and Buffy who always bring the ICE cars back home running on fumes and expect Mom and Dad to gas them up, then I wouldn't hold my breath.

Sounds like an even better reason to have them ride the bus for a couple days/weeks. If you can't take the responsibility of keeping your vehicle fueled/charges up, you don't need to drive.

 

[mac_1103]

Sounds like an even better reason to have them ride the bus for a couple days/weeks.

Well sure, but parents these days...

 

[Airborneguy]

Assuming home charging is available, how hard is it to switch cords? Or even better, plug in all 4 with splitters and set the apps to stagger charging times. That’s an already available function.

 

[Thorrak]

If you're talking about the same Jody and Buffy who always bring the ICE cars back home running on fumes and expect Mom and Dad to gas them up, then I wouldn't hold my breath.

42A of charging at 220V = 9.2kW/h = 33 mi/hr of charge.

The question really then is if your household as a whole drives more than 260 miles per consecutive day per circuit.

My guess is Jody and Buffy typically grab the ICE car at a quarter tank and don’t want to pay to fill it. For an EV they’re grabbing it at “full” every time and the cost to charge comes from the household electric bill.

 

[Kent88]

Well sure, but parents these days...

Apparently we have very different life experiences.

 

[mac_1103]

Apparently we have very different life experiences.

So nobody here has any experience with teenagers who can't be bothered to plug in a cord and parents who will complain loudly but can't bring themselves to actually impose consequences? Really?

edit - in that case, sorry for the digression

 

[Airborneguy]

So nobody here has any experience with teenagers who can't be bothered to plug in a cord and parents who will complain loudly but can't bring themselves to actually impose consequences? Really?

Wouldn’t these hypothetical teenagers do the same with gas? It’s even less convenient than plugging in a cord at home. Especially for the parent after the fact.

 

[mac_1103]

Wouldn’t these hypothetical teenagers do the same with gas?

Re-read #1750. My point was that the hypothetical teenagers will behave exactly the same with charging as they would with gas. I'm not saying this is an argument against EVs. I just don't expect EVs to change basic family dynamics.

 

[Broothru]

Terrible inconvenience over home charging. May as well stick with gas.

. Assuming there’s a ‘/s’ implied.

 

[Kent88]

I anticipate having enough trouble getting my kids to take my advice on such things. I can't concern myself with parents who aren't going to listen when I suggest that maybe they need to take away keys once in a while to teach their children about consequences and responsibility.

 

[Airborneguy]

. Assuming there’s a ‘/s’ implied.

I'm being facetious but not sarcastic. I would never give up home charging for a method that in practice would likely take even LONGER than gas fill ups.

For the slight tradeoff on road trips, home charging is way more than worthwhile. It's a convenience factor gas car committed people simply can't understand unfortunately.

 

[mac_1103]

home charging is way more than worthwhile. It's a convenience factor gas car committed people simply can't understand unfortunately.

Which strikes me as kind of bizarre. It should be the easiest thing to understand about EVs. Especially PHEVs. What's so difficult about "you only need to buy gas when you go on a long trip"?

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Standardized battery packs that take 30 seconds to swap in and out at a gas station would go a long way to addressing most concerns about how long it takes to recharge. Kinda like the propane tank exchanges many gas stations around here in Minnesota do.

I answered this one in the thread... Rather than retype I'll quote myself:

Not gonna happen in passenger vehicles. The battery packs are a stressed member of the frame in order to improve rigidity. Making them a removable item means that you have to massively bulk up the frame of the vehicle to reach the same rigidity, increasing vehicle weight and decreasing efficiency. It likely means that you also have to build a much more durable frame for the battery to have it withstand repeated insertion and removal. Again more weight, and less efficiency. All that increased weight means more load on tires, more load on drivetrain, more load on the road. It's one thing to do it in a cordless drill, it's another to do it in a multi-ton vehicle. And this is largely unnecessary in a world where most EV owners charge at home and it's only the rare exception that they need to figure it out for a road trip.

It's not a cooperation problem; it's an engineering trade-off that is unnecessary and unwise to make. Charging infrastructure is the answer, not battery swaps.

I haven't really looked at it closely when you think about vehicles like long-haul trucks, though. The battery and frame weight of the tractor on an electric 18-wheeler compared to the overall combined weight of a full trailer load, along with the much bigger size of a tractor, may make it viable there. Especially since those trucks make money when they're rolling, not when they're charging. What you give up in efficiency may be regained in what you can actually earn per day.

But it doesn't make sense in a typical passenger car.

It's a seemingly attractive concept, but it's unworkable in reality.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

@passedpawn Not going to try to quote your post from the other thread. But some ideas:

4 EV family question: My guess would be that they'd align their charging such that not everyone charges every day. If you think Tesla ranges (~300 mi?) and typical household driving needs (for many individuals, <50 mi/day), you don't all have to get your car to 80% every single night.

Driveway vs garage question: At least here in my neighborhood, I see PLENTY of EVs which are charged in the driveway via a cord from the garage. Being in SoCal where homes are insanely expensive and therefore small, and thus need to use a garage for storage of things other than vehicles, usually one or zero cars can actually fit into the garage. But it's not an impediment to EVs here. Got a neighbor with two Rivians in the driveway (assuming it's a couple who are both Rivian employees tbh).

 

[Airborneguy]

Which strikes me as kind of bizarre. It should be the easiest thing to understand about EVs. Especially PHEVs. What's so difficult about "you only need to buy gas when you go on a long trip"?

Don’t ask me.

I have people regularly trying to teach me that charging at home takes more active time than getting gas, costs more, and most of all, that the increase in my electricity cost does not equate with the drop to $0 gas spending.

It’s very strange.

 

[passedpawn]

4 EV family question: My guess would be that they'd align their charging such that not everyone charges every day. If you think Tesla ranges (~300 mi?) and typical household driving needs (for many individuals, <50 mi/day), you don't all have to get your car to 80% every single night.

Yea, I guess that makes sense, the same way one doesn't refill a gas tank every night. In my situation, all 3 kids are gone and independent. So, just two drivers here. I guess when the day comes when we are both driving EVs, I'll just install a charger in between them. Are the cords long enough to reach two vehicles like that?

I figure one will be a hybrid, just to avoid all the potential issues named above. I really like the look of that hybrid Ram

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Yea, I guess that makes sense, the same way one doesn't refill a gas tank every night. In my situation, all 3 kids are gone and independent. So, just two drivers here. I guess when the day comes when we are both driving EVs, I'll just install a charger in between them. Are the cords long enough to reach two vehicles like that?

I figure one will be a hybrid, just to avoid all the potential issues named above. I really like the look of that hybrid Ram

The people I see charging in their driveways have no issue with length of cord.

 

[mac_1103]

In my situation, all 3 kids are gone and independent.

Congratulations!

 

[Airborneguy]

The cord on my JuiceBox 40 is long enough to charge on both sides of the driveway and both inside spots. I’ve used all 4 depending on the parking situation, though I usually park facing in, right next to it, putting the charging port inches from the charger itself. My cord is usually coiled on a hook.

My cousin got a quote today to run cable from his panel, across the basement, up and out to a driveway-mounted charger (he doesn’t have a garage). They told him +/- $1500 total, with the charger. Not bad. He’s going to try to stay on 100amp service for now.

 

[Broothru]

The cord on my JuiceBox 40 is long enough to charge on both sides of the driveway and both inside spots. I’ve used all 4 depending on the parking situation, though I usually park facing in, right next to it, putting the charging port inches from the charger itself. My cord is usually coiled on a hook.

My cousin got a quote today to run cable from his panel, across the basement, up and out to a driveway-mounted charger (he doesn’t have a garage). They told him +/- $1500 total, with the charger. Not bad. He’s going to try to stay on 100amp service for now.

$1957.00 is the quote my electrician gave me last month. It’ll be a 50 amp circuit that will double for RV power on those occasions when we park it in the driveway. I’m also toying with the idea of an isolated circuit and transfer panel where I can back-feed from my 7,000W generator for emergency power. That’ll probably be more expensive than buying a natgas stand-alone Generex system though.