Poll: Do you have, or plan to get, an electric car?

[Rodent]

good question. I know he said he specifically charged to 100% in Leavenworth to ensure he didn't need to charge again before arriving at my place several hours (and a drive thru the mountains) away, and that he spent an hour there for charging, restroom, and eats.

I cannot say with certainty that he charged to 100% on any other leg, and given what he shared about his normal driving habits it could be that he followed his 80%/20% preference for all of the other segments since he'd be travelling on Interstate freeways where high capacity charging stations are more plentiful

I'll catch up with him in a couple days and do my best to remember and ask

 

[sibelman]

The devil is in the details, but this report shows a happy EV road trip, and things are getting even better. I'm bullish even though there are limits and shortcomings. Don't want a Tesla though.

 

[Airborneguy]

I took it to mean charges to 100% just before taking a road trip.

Yes, that part was clear but then he discussed 20%-100% on the road and provided an accurate amount of time if doing so.

 

[Rodrigue Planck]

https://www.foxbusiness.com/technol...eck-during-f-150-lightning-route-66-road-trip

 

[Kent88]

 

[day_trippr]

Clearly a hit piece...

 

[tracer bullet]

Clearly a hit piece...

I scanned it, it seemed reasonable. Had him also talking about some of it being good, and chargers available.

Or are you talking about the video? I didn't watch that, only read the small amount of text.

And to be clear I will never defend Fox, it can burn in hell as far as I'm concerned. I just didn't really see anything I'd call a hit piece.

 

[Kent88]

I didn't want to comment on the source, but I also scanned the article without getting into the video.

What I took away from it is people are still complaining about charging infrastructure. Infrastructure in my area isn't fantastic, but I've found that when I consider what I ask my vehicles to do and what EVs have been able to handle for the past few years, there are already several options that will work when it comes time to trade my vehicles.

Now I understand that this is just my experience, and there are parts of the U.S. that aren't so lucky. But we're still improving our charging infrastructure. The push to improve charging infrastructure is gaining momentum. I'm no expert, but I suspect it would take a massive blunder for that momentum to stop. Charging network companies/groups themselves might grow and shrink, some new ones might form, and some existing ones might fold, but the charging network as a whole is going to trend towards better coverage and faster, easier to use chargers.

 

[Rodrigue Planck]

So even the CEO of the business that is losing 3,200,000,000.00 in EVs this year is rolling of the eyes. Of course what I post probably should be in the debate area (insert rolling of eyes).

 

[Rodrigue Planck]

Clearly a hit piece...

LOL, from the CEO no less.

 

[Rodrigue Planck]

y experience, and there are parts of the U.S. that aren't so lucky. But we're still improving our charging infrastructure. The push to improve charging infrastructure is gaining momentu

So it's not up to speed, it will fail a lot of people, but keep on rolling the eyes at people who differ in their view of the subject and show legit articles of issues.

 

[Airborneguy]

It’s 100% up to speed if you own a Tesla. I’ll never choose my gas car for a roadtrip unless I’m towing.

For non-road trip use it’s not even close. EV wins by miles. Convenience factor is through the roof.

 

[Rodrigue Planck]

Frankly I'm shocked no one corrected me. Losses for Ford on EVs is now 4,500,000,000.00 not 3,200,000,000.00. What's a billion three hundred million more! Poppycock!

 

[Airborneguy]

Someone doesn’t understand how business works…

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, I was being sarcastic...

 

[Kent88]

Frankly I'm shocked no one corrected me. Losses for Ford on EVs is now 4,500,000,000.00 not 3,200,000,000.00. What's a billion three hundred million more! Poppycock!

Over in Debate I shared an interview this guy at Ford did with NPR where he addresses that, yes they are losing money on EV sales, but they're finding that people who buy EVs overwhelmingly tend to buy them again when it comes time for them to buy another vehicle. Ford (and I'm sure other automakers) also expect that they're going to be able to bring costs down as they scale up EV production and improve their supply chains. Ford is well aware that they're losing money on some EVs now, but they're expecting to make that money back when customers go to buy their second or third EV.

So it's not up to speed, it will fail a lot of people,

One of the things I have repeatedly stated is that it isn't my goal to sell any ICE drivers an EV today. That'd be nice, but I know I can't do that. What I really hope for is that I can share my experiences driving a PHEV, debunk myths, encourage people to look at what they ask their current vehicles to do, look at what EVs available today are capable of, and when their current vehicles reach the criteria for them to find new transportation have them give EVs honest consideration.

I have repeatedly stated that part of deciding whether an EV works for anybody is looking at ones frequently driven routes, considering the range of the EVs one likes, and considering where and when charging will take place.

But this blanket statement of the charging network as a whole not being sufficient is a dying argument and ignores how many people already do make it work with their current EVs and how many more people would be able to make it work if we could wave a magic wand and swap their ICE vehicle for an EV today.

 

[Rodent]

took a step yesterday towards our eventual EV future and spent a couple hours with a solar install tech sizing out a new system. given a couple options I want to utilize, it's likely not going to be the least expensive system possible - but I'm OK with that as I'm not looking to install a Yugo (or a Ferrari for that matter)

charging an EV will definitely help reduce the ROI time, but that's a future objective that falls later on in the priorities list

 

[sibelman]

Some obvious thoughts:

• There are good and bad things about all vehicles.
• EVs still cost more than similar ICE vehicles. Transition to new tech usually imposes major costs.
• ICE vehicles pump CO2 and other pollutants out their exhausts.
• Manufacturing any vehicle (indeed, any thing!) has environmental consequences.
• Charging infrastructure (and the grid more generally) will need major expansion to meet increasing demand.

Given all these obvious facts, some thoughtful and well informed people will keep buying and driving ICE vehicles, while others make the switch to EVs.

Cheers!

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I have repeatedly stated that part of deciding whether an EV works for anybody is looking at ones frequently driven routes, considering the range of the EVs one likes, and considering where and when charging will take place.

But this blanket statement of the charging network as a whole not being sufficient is a dying argument and ignores how many people already do make it work with their current EVs and how many more people would be able to make it work if we could wave a magic wand and swap their ICE vehicle for an EV today.

I think it's a complex argument. I think that argument, as @Airborneguy points out, doesn't hold water--IF you drive a Tesla.

Tesla, for all the problems I have with them, understood that no third party is going to build chargers until there's demand, and that nobody was going to buy EVs if there weren't chargers, so there will be no demand. So they built out their own charging network, and got basically half to 3/4 of a decade lead on the rest of the market.

Legacy automakers thought "we'll build the EVs, people will buy them, and third parties will build a robust charging network similar to the gas stations we have today." And that meant that non-Tesla EVs don't today have nearly the robust charging capability that Tesla has, because third-party charging has a long way to go to catch up, because there was VERY little demand outside of Tesla.

So the argument can simultaneously be true that there is a robust charging network for [Tesla] EVs and for the CEO of Ford to admit "hey, this isn't exactly the easiest situation for buyers of *our* EVs."

 

[Airborneguy]

Teslas do not cost much more than the comparable ICE vehicles, if at all. But of course in online discussions they’re routinely compared the cheapest vehicles on the market so the gulf of disagreement remains wide.

 

[Kent88]

That's another change happening in charging: major automakers are adopting Tesla compatible charging equipment. I don't understand all the details, but in a few years Ford, GM, and others will, for better and worse, all be able to charge with Tesla charging equipment. The J1772 plugs are probably going to be phased out, while Mach-E, F150 Lightning, Silverados, and Blazers will probably be able to use Tesla Superchargers.

I'm leery of how much proprietary tech is still connected to Tesla charging, but no industry bigwigs are calling me to ask what they should do. I've been fine with J1772 plugs.

I assume that companies like ChargePoint are going to scramble to develop and sell charging equipment with Tesla style plugs, but there are J1772 to Tesla adapters out there, and eventually there are going to be good Tesla to J1772 adapters available (but probably not for SuperChargers) so EV owners with J1772 plugs should be ok.

There was also some big joint venture announced among some big automakers including GM to start another charging network. Tesla might be the 800lb gorilla in EV charging, but there's room for others, especially if enough companies have thrown their weight behind a charging standard.

 

[Rodent]

as a consumer, here's where I get frustrated with companies not aligning on a standard and trying to do something different that isn't compatible with other tech. it's in some ways similar to receptacle plug differences from country to country - each has their 'standard' that means I need to pack an unending number of adapters (plug style and voltage) as part of my business travels

if all the players today agreed upon the Tesla plug as "today's standard" we could soon be building a charging infrastructure available for all similar to what we have today with gasoline/diesel companies offering a common/similar product under many brands/corporations. we've standardized on many things to date, so why not take a consumer perspective and jump in with the Tesla plug sooner than later. EV makes can then focus their engineering/marketing budgets on differentiating themselves on styling, quality, comfort, range, etc ... and have their offerings more compelling to everybody. when technology demands that a new charger plug standard be devised, let the EV industry as a whole define and adopt it, then phase it in with a deployment that has minimal negative impact on consumers

https://www.tesla.com/blog/opening-north-american-charging-standard

 

[Airborneguy]

Most car companies have already signed on. It’s just a matter of rolling out the tech.

 

[Kent88]

My problem with something like Tesla's charging tech has been the proprietary tech involved. I'm a big fan of free (as in Libre and Freedom) software. Have been for almost 20 years. Back then a couple of the big open software debates were over ODF vs OOXML for open document formats, and whether Mozilla software was open enough to be included in Debian Linux (no joke, rather than including Firefox and Thunderbird they included basically the same software that had just been rebranded as Iceweasel and Icedove).

But I also understand that not all tech is going to be libre, and some amount of proprietary stuff is going to be included in something as complex as EV chargers. I'd like to see a balance where fast charging can be done with equipment that was developed without financial ties to Tesla, but where Tesla still has a model to continue their business.

Not that Tesla or any automakers are calling me for my opinion.

I don't know what problems other people have with Tesla chargers, unless they were involved in another standard's development or they have a beef with Elon. Don't tell Elon, but I'm certainly not his biggest fan so I can understand why people don't like him. I also don't understand why people would absolutely hate the J1772 plugs. I use one all the time, and if I wasn't a bit of an EV geek I probably wouldn't think anything of it. It's just a plug. It's only a problem when you have the wrong one.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

As a former coworker (the guy who hired me actually) used to say...

Standards are great! Everyone should have one!

And as I've said in my industry (data storage, i.e. HDD/SSD)... The great thing about SSDs relative to HDDs is that you can make them in any form factor you want. And the terrible thing about SSDs is that you can make them in any form factor you want.

But companies like Tesla and Apple don't want standards. They want to be different.

 

[Airborneguy]

Did you work with Yogi Berra?

I use a J1772 at home, with an adapter. The issues arise with Level 3. I’m no engineer, but I believe the Tesla/“NACS” is better for Level 3 because it doesn’t require the extra connection like J1772 does to push the higher voltage.

 

[Bilsch]

https://jalopnik.com/no-one-in-the-us-really-wants-to-buy-electric-vehicles-1850622254
Obviously a clickbait headline, but an interesting article nonetheless. Right now EV supply is outstripping EV demand. Cars are sitting unsold on lots, with EV inventory cycles close to double that of ICEV.

Not that this means anything long-term, of course. Right now battery technology is expensive, and it's interesting that some of the models they highlight at having high inventory relative to sales volumes are all expensive (2x Audi models, the GMC Hummer EV, and the Genesis EV). I'd say that market is somewhat saturated right now while a theoretical "budget EV" market is underserved.

I'd love to get a comparison between BEV and ICEV inventory of vehicles in the same class and price range. But the article doesn't have that.

I'd argue the EV models they used in their examples are the ones really no one wants and it's no surprise there is a glut. Conversely Tesla is selling everything they make but that is also no surprise since it makes the best selling car in the world.

 

[Kent88]

Maybe the salespeople need to learn a little more about the new product they're going to push

EVs are running out of customers — and some dealers don't want them anymore

 

[El Whedo]

This isn't a hit piece on EV's. It's a hit piece on central planning vs allowing a market to organically evolve. Nonetheless, quite interesting.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/08/what-we-can-learn-from-chinas-electric-vehicle-graveyards/

 

[sibelman]

central planning vs allowing a market to organically evolve

This is definitely a hybrid (no pun intended) situation where market forces stir imperfectly with government, er, encouragement. I'm not allergic to using government power to push things, especially where the market isn't getting it done. Automotive (and other) pollution control offers a classic case. But there are bound to be flaws, sometimes rather serious, in the outcomes of pure market, central planning, and hybrid situations.

 

[mac_1103]

Washington Post recently did (or I guess commissioned) a study of gasoline vs electrons in all 50 states. Electrons won everywhere. It's behind a paywall, of course.

 

[El Whedo]

I'm pro-EV, I just wish there was more consumer demand so Government idiocy/inefficacy could be kept outta the equation.

 

[Airborneguy]

My electric bill was $179 last month. That includes all of the charging for roughly 1200 miles.

Edit: to clarify, that’s my house and car.

 

[Kent88]

I'm pro-EV, I just wish there was more consumer demand so Government idiocy/inefficacy could be kept outta the equation.

Oh this is a topic that gets really close to what should be discussed in debate. I don't say that to chastise you, but because I need to tread carefully in response.

I think an issue with customer demand is that a large demographic has bought into Fear Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) that certain people spread about EVs. You don't have to go far to find it, there's a bunch in this thread.

There are actual issues with EVs that we need to consider. A lot of solutions are on the horizon, like with speed of recharge and ease of finding convenient charging stations. There are issues that we still need to sort out, like finding battery chemistry that's dense, stable, safe, inexpensive, and probably lighter weight. It doesn't help that there are people out there claiming that EV batteries horribly degrade within 20,000mi, or that all EVs are underpowered, etc.

At the end of the day I think people just want reasonably priced, reliable transportation and they don't want to have radically different vehicles that require a lot of new things to learn. The good news is, today's EVs check at least two of those boxes. When I bought my Volt I noticed that it had a lot of things in common with the Pontiacs I had been driving. My drivers license and everything I learned in driver's education still applied to driving the Volt. It has been just as reliable to drive as any of my Pontiacs, I feel just as confident driving it on snowy roads as any other car I've driven. As far as affordability, EVs already have better TCO than most people accept, but it'll get better as vehicle manufacturers improve their supply chains and more used EVs hit the market.

I wonder whether salespeople's lack of experience is hindering EV sales. A lot of vehicle shopping is done online now. How many people are still driving up on the lot and asking questions besides "can I test drive this vehicle I found on your website?"? I don't know.

 

[El Whedo]

My electric bill was $179 last month. That includes all of the charging for roughly 1200 miles.

Edit: to clarify, that’s my house and car.

That is awesome. Truly Bad-Ass!

I try hard to have a small carbon footprint. Three of us live in 1200 sq ft. Dunno what this month's electricity bill will be, but last month was 54 dollars and change. 2/3's of that bill were taxes, fees, and maintenance charges. On the up-side, our local elec co-op hit its goal of 100% daytime solar!!!

My wife used to go to work here in the village either walking, or on her bicycle. This summer, she has a sewing machine and several large bags to tote, so she uses the Subaru to get to work and the grocery store twice a month (almost 30 miles round trip). So she uses about 3 gallons of gas a month.

Last month, I rode my motorcycle 344 miles at 69 MPG for just under 5 gallons of gas used.

 

[El Whedo]

Oh this is a topic that gets really close to what should be discussed in debate. I don't say that to chastise you, but because I need to tread carefully in response.

I think an issue with customer demand is that a large demographic has bought into Fear Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) that certain people spread about EVs. You don't have to go far to find it, there's a bunch in this thread.

There are actual issues with EVs that we need to consider. A lot of solutions are on the horizon, like with speed of recharge and ease of finding convenient charging stations. There are issues that we still need to sort out, like finding battery chemistry that's dense, stable, safe, inexpensive, and probably lighter weight. It doesn't help that there are people out there claiming that EV batteries horribly degrade within 20,000mi, or that all EVs are underpowered, etc.

At the end of the day I think people just want reasonably priced, reliable transportation and they don't want to have radically different vehicles that require a lot of new things to learn. The good news is, today's EVs check at least two of those boxes. When I bought my Volt I noticed that it had a lot of things in common with the Pontiacs I had been driving. My drivers license and everything I learned in driver's education still applied to driving the Volt. It has been just as reliable to drive as any of my Pontiacs, I feel just as confident driving it on snowy roads as any other car I've driven. As far as affordability, EVs already have better TCO than most people accept, but it'll get better as vehicle manufacturers improve their supply chains and more used EVs hit the market.

I wonder whether salespeople's lack of experience is hindering EV sales. A lot of vehicle shopping is done online now. How many people are still driving up on the lot and asking questions besides "can I test drive this vehicle I found on your website?"? I don't know.

You make lots of good points.

 

[Bilsch]

I wonder whether salespeople's lack of experience is hindering EV sales. A lot of vehicle shopping is done online now. How many people are still driving up on the lot and asking questions besides "can I test drive this vehicle I found on your website?"? I don't know.

I think salespeople are actively hindering EV sales. Both times I went to the GM dealer, first to see the the Volt then with the Bolt, they tried very hard to talk me out of buying. Tesla made the right move to get rid of dealers.

 

[Kent88]

I think salespeople are actively hindering EV sales. Both times I went to the GM dealer, first to see the the volt then with the bolt, they tried very hard to talk me out of buying. Tesla made the right move to get rid of dealers.

My experiences looking at Volts (and a Bolt) the salespeople were nice, but I felt like they expected us to know everything they'd ordinarily tell us about the vehicle already. Like they expected we had either already sold ourselves on it or they hadn't, and they were just going to play along. Almost some form of apathetic.

 

[sibelman]

Like @elwhedo I'm pro-EV. I'm pro-electric brewing too. In my garage/brewery, they go together .

When it's time to replace my Bolt, I hope there's another EV short enough to fit while I'm brewing.

Cheers!

 

[Brooothru]

Over in Debate I shared an interview this guy at Ford did with NPR where he addresses that, yes they are losing money on EV sales, but they're finding that people who buy EVs overwhelmingly tend to buy them again when it comes time for them to buy another vehicle. Ford (and I'm sure other automakers) also expect that they're going to be able to bring costs down as they scale up EV production and improve their supply chains. Ford is well aware that they're losing money on some EVs now, but they're expecting to make that money back when customers go to buy their second or third EV.



One of the things I have repeatedly stated is that it isn't my goal to sell any ICE drivers an EV today. That'd be nice, but I know I can't do that. What I really hope for is that I can share my experiences driving a PHEV, debunk myths, encourage people to look at what they ask their current vehicles to do, look at what EVs available today are capable of, and when their current vehicles reach the criteria for them to find new transportation have them give EVs honest consideration.

I have repeatedly stated that part of deciding whether an EV works for anybody is looking at ones frequently driven routes, considering the range of the EVs one likes, and considering where and when charging will take place.

But this blanket statement of the charging network as a whole not being sufficient is a dying argument and ignores how many people already do make it work with their current EVs and how many more people would be able to make it work if we could wave a magic wand and swap their ICE vehicle for an EV today.

Totally^^^^

We came into EV/PHEV ‘back door’ when we bought our son’s Prius so he and DIL could get a minivan when bonus grandchild #3 came about somewhat unexpectedly. We’d toyed with the idea of an EV, even vicariously looked into Tesla, but never reached the point of pulling the trigger.

Now after nearly 3 years of driving a PHEV I don’t think we’ll buy another ICE. The ‘normal’ choice of “which car shall we take” now always defaults to the Prius, and leads to disagreements when we each have separate destinations.

Before, we were “EV curious”. Now we’re converts.