Poll: Do you have, or plan to get, an electric car?

[Kent88]

With my current house/lawn, I also have no use for a tractor. I aspire to have a large enough property someday that it merits a tractor like that Monarch.

There is a thread around here for electric lawn equipment, but I figured something as big as these tractors belonged in the EV talk.

 

[Kent88]

I saw this headline, and then got paywall'd, and I'm bummed about it.

Meet Lunaz Design, the firm turning old-school Rolls-Royces and Bentleys into new-age, red-carpet worthy EVs

Here is a link directly to the folks doing the modifications:

Discovery - Lunaz Design - Classic Electric Cars

 

[Kent88]

GM evaluating second U.S. battery plant for EVs amid construction of $2.3 billion facility in Ohio

 

[Barbarossa]

When they finally find how to actually make a good, small and efficient battery, maybe. But for now, batteries make the cars overpriced, inconvenient, heavy and unreliable for long haul. I'll stick to my mustang till then.

 

[Kent88]

You like Mustangs, so here.

Overpriced is an interesting argument to hear from a mustang owner. I personally don't think affordability when I think of Mustangs.

Vehicle weight isn't something I've given much thought to since I moved away from the farm. I'm not pulling loaded wagons or livestock trailers anymore.

I don't really see how you figure that batteries are unreliable or inconvenient. I think I've heard that Nissan's batteries are less reliable, and are replaced every so often, but other EV makers, like GM, have made some pretty reliable batteries. Looks like you live a little ways north of me, so maybe you're talking about reduced range due to the cold? That's becoming less of an issue every year.

Inconvenient, though, I can see that maybe for road trips (level two chargers charge something like 20 miles per hour plugged in, so that could take a while) and renters who don't always have access to charging whenever they're back from work, but a quick search for "ev charging montreal" suggests that there are options around you.

Personally, it's convenient for me because I can charge in my garage (don't even need a fast charger), we have a range extender in the car, and we're a two vehicle household with an ICE Jeep. Last summer our car was my spouse's main vehicle for going to work and it was basically an EV for over 4 months. Had my sister in law not visited from Africa, prompting my wife to go on a short road trip, that 9 gallon gas tank would've lasted 4,000 miles (5.5 gallons lasted something like 3,200). I haven't gassed up all winter. It's pretty convenient for us to rarely ever go out of our way to the gas station.

 

[Apple_Jacker]

I'll wait and see what technology comes after the lithium-ion battery.

 

[Barbarossa]

Yeah, many people struggle to differentiate value from price.

 

[Kent88]

I'll wait and see what technology comes after the lithium-ion battery.

I shared this story about a new battery plant with a friend of mine who is a real EV enthusiast, and before he had to get back to whatever was on today's schedule he commented on how GM was going to make a plant to handle battery tech that we'll see in a few years that is barely more than a stray thought in the mind of a grad student right now.

Yeah, many people struggle to differentiate value from price.

That's ambiguous.

 

[Barbarossa]

That's ambiguous.

Do you have in mind a more fairly priced toy car? Because this thing is a beast. I get a lot of smiles per gallon. But anyway. I'm here to brew. Enjoy your car. I definitely enjoy mine.

 

[AzOr]

There are a few ev’s that fit my need and plenty more to come in the next few years. I’m just waiting for some to pop up in the used market.

I’ve always had 2 vehicles; a commuter and a bigger suv for towing and family trips.
I could easily see myself w an ev for commuting. That’s why an ev with a range of 200 miles is more than adequate for me and others.

 

[Kent88]

Do you have in mind a more fairly priced toy car? Because this thing is a beast. I get a lot of smiles per gallon. But anyway. I'm here to brew. Enjoy your car. I definitely enjoy mine.

I'm not trying to be confrontational here. You came into a thread about EVs and shared some common misconceptions about EVs. I offered the benefit of my experience while being honest about the current shortcomings that one could point out about EVs. I can't force you to like them, and I wouldn't try to do so. I'm just trying to be honest about them.

I'm not surprised you like your car, I know a couple of mustang owners who also enjoy their cars. I enjoy my Volt.

 

[Barbarossa]

I did try to buy one. I will definitely buy one. The performance will be insane. At some point, there will be no contest. You will only buy a muscle car for the thrill. But you will get smoked by cheap cars all day. But that day has not come yet.

I still remember when I wanted a Prius. It was basically a compact car priced 50% higher than their comparative. The salesman admitted that I would take about ten years before I start to save on gas, since there was a 10k$ markup for the battery/electric setup. And that is if I don't need to change the battery, which most likely don't last ten years. Think buying a civic, but pay 28k for it instead of 18$.

I did share my thoughts, since the question has been asked. You save on gas but pay a hefty price upfront, most likely on credit. I'm not saying these cars are bad, just saying that the technology is not there yet.

 

[Kent88]

There are a few ev’s that fit my need and plenty more to come in the next few years. I’m just waiting for some to pop up in the used market.

I would dearly love to get my parents into a Bolt EUV, because until about 5 years ago, their vehicles tended to stay in the family. I'd like to revive that practice. Unfortunately at least one of them is completely anti-EV.

I’ve always had 2 vehicles; a commuter and a bigger suv for towing and family trips.
I could easily see myself w an ev for commuting. That’s why an ev with a range of 200 miles is more than adequate for me and others.

We have the same setup. One car for the bulk of trips in the tri-county area in the no-snow months, and one 4wd suv for winter driving and road trips.

The car is a PHEV as of about 16 months ago, and it's been a smooth transition.

 

[Dr_Jeff]

If I gave up the role I have in Alaska, and was back at home, there would be an hour and a half drive to Huntsville, so I would get a Tesla with the autodrive feature, for sure.

 

[Kent88]

I still remember when I wanted a Prius. It was basically a compact car priced 50% higher than their comparative. The salesman admitted that I would take about ten years before I start to save on gas, since there was a 10k$ markup for the battery/electric setup. And that is if I don't need to change the battery, which most likely don't last ten years. Think buying a civic, but pay 28k for it instead of 18$.

I did share my thoughts, since the question has been asked. You save on gas but pay a hefty price upfront, most likely on credit. I'm not saying these cars are bad, just saying that the technology is not there yet.

I never really looked at a Prius. I don't know much about their batteries. I don't think there was a PHEV Prius comparable to a Volt until just a couple of years ago.

It actually sounds like the pricing isn't where you want it yet, rather than the tech. The tech is, IMHO, pretty good and still improving. I suggested earlier that maybe the battery capacity/range or charging wasn't where you wanted, or maybe you were concerned about the performance hit they take due to cold, and you haven't said anything about those.

The route I went was to buy a gently used Volt, and let someone else absorb that initial depreciation. I researched how durable the batteries are, and even called a friend of a friend who had a Volt and asked him if his high-voltage battery ever gave him trouble. Everything I heard and read pointed to them having reliable batteries and didn't have any more issues than ICE cars.

And saving money by using electrons instead of gas isn't the only way that an EV can save money. You also have less maintenance and spend less time at the shop or dealership. If you have a way to charge at home, then your house becomes your fuel station, so you spend less time at the gas station and more at home. Some electricity providers provide better off peak pricing for you to save even more by charging at those times. There are also some businesses that provide reduced price or even free charging, like my grocery store.

So you wanted a Prius, but it was too expensive so you ended up with a Mustang, that's an interesting turn of events.

 

[AzOr]

I did try to buy one. I will definitely buy one. The performance will be insane. At some point, there will be no contest. You will only buy a muscle car for the thrill. But you will get smoked by cheap cars all day. But that day has not come yet.

I still remember when I wanted a Prius. It was basically a compact car priced 50% higher than their comparative. The salesman admitted that I would take about ten years before I start to save on gas, since there was a 10k$ markup for the battery/electric setup. And that is if I don't need to change the battery, which most likely don't last ten years. Think buying a civic, but pay 28k for it instead of 18$.

I did share my thoughts, since the question has been asked. You save on gas but pay a hefty price upfront, most likely on credit. I'm not saying these cars are bad, just saying that the technology is not there yet.

Agreed in buying a new Prius. However, buying a used Prius makes a lot of sense. Or hybrid Camry etc.

 

[AzOr]

Realistically I could deal w a plug in hybrid. The new RAV4 Prime makes a lot of sense but is just priced too high. The 40 mile range could cover my commute for 3 days. Having awd is a big plus as well (my commuter is a Forester).

 

[AzOr]

I would dearly love to get my parents into a Bolt EUV, because until about 5 years ago, their vehicles tended to stay in the family. I'd like to revive that practice. Unfortunately at least one of them is completely anti-EV.



We have the same setup. One car for the bulk of trips in the tri-county area in the no-snow months, and one 4wd suv for winter driving and road trips.

The car is a PHEV as of about 16 months ago, and it's been a smooth transition.

There’s a whole community of retired people who have been driving electric vehicles for a loooong time.
Sun City Az
Quite a few residents use their e-golf carts to get groceries etc.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I did try to buy one. I will definitely buy one. The performance will be insane. At some point, there will be no contest. You will only buy a muscle car for the thrill. But you will get smoked by cheap cars all day. But that day has not come yet.

I still remember when I wanted a Prius. It was basically a compact car priced 50% higher than their comparative. The salesman admitted that I would take about ten years before I start to save on gas, since there was a 10k$ markup for the battery/electric setup. And that is if I don't need to change the battery, which most likely don't last ten years. Think buying a civic, but pay 28k for it instead of 18$.

I did share my thoughts, since the question has been asked. You save on gas but pay a hefty price upfront, most likely on credit. I'm not saying these cars are bad, just saying that the technology is not there yet.

Maybe the markup was higher back when you looked at it. Right now Toyota says it starts about $24.5K for a Prius sedan, and the Honda site says $21,250 for a Civic sedan.

I'm in a similar place right now regarding EVs. They're just too expensive, especially for what I need. I have a wife, 3 kids, and a 90# dog. Until the kids start leaving the nest, I simply need the size. I currently drive a Ford Flex, which I got used for $26K, and has three-row seating and plenty of cargo room. It's a pig on gas, but a comparable EV doesn't exist. The Model Y comes closest by having three rows, but absolutely doesn't have three usable rows like the Flex. I also am currently renting, so I won't have a Level 2 charger at home for it--and my Jeep currently lives in that garage, so I don't have room in the garage for an EV anyway.

That said, my oldest has about 5 more years of school and that will be about the time that the Flex is getting seriously long in the tooth as it's 2014. So I expect my next car will likely be an EV. It's just not on a near-term time horizon.

 

[firerat]

Do they come in pick up?

I'd get a pick up if it doesn't cost my first born.

 

[Kent88]

I shared a couple of articles about electric trucks in this thread within the last few months. They look pretty tough, but they look pretty pricey.

 

[Apple_Jacker]

Rivian's truck and SUV look pretty good, just horribly expensive:

Rivian - Electric Adventure Vehicles

Keep the world adventurous forever

rivian.com

I know Rivian's been talked about here, but I do like what they're coming up with.

"Across the hottest and coldest places — from 130F to -25F — our battery system has been developed to explore. At launch, the R1T will deliver 300+ miles. In January 2022, a 400+ mile R1T will be available. After launch, we’ll announce the timing for a 250+ mile R1T."

Not too shabby, but the cheapest starting point for the truck is $67,500, and the SUV comes in at $70,000....


I may have overlooked if these guys were mentioned in this thread:

Lordstown Motors Corp. | Electric Work Vehicles | Lordstown, OH, USA

Lordstown Motors Corp. builds electric pickup trucks and other vehicles to revolutionize the way work gets done.

lordstownmotors.com

Not as nice looking as Rivian, but they still look close to a normal-looking vehicle, unlike Tesla's truck . The "fast charge" is 30 minutes however, and max. range seems to be just 250 miles.

Last year, I got to sit in the backseat of a Tesla (Uber ride), and I have to admit, it was pretty damn cool.

 

[Kent88]

Didn't Rivian just announce a charging network they sponsored that includes some really out of the way destinations?

Edit, yes:
Rivian Adventure Network charging stations revealed with higher capacity than expected - Electrek

 

[Barbarossa]

So you wanted a Prius, but it was too expensive so you ended up with a Mustang, that's an interesting turn of events.

Again, value does not equal price. And I had a Edge in between. Loved that car too.

 

[Barbarossa]

Agreed in buying a new Prius. However, buying a used Prius makes a lot of sense. Or hybrid Camry etc.

The salesman even said that the only reason to buy electric is to have a clear conscience about the environment. Nothing practical about it. No money saved. A 10k difference between two cars should come with more comfort or
more performancee. For those, you get less performance and less comfort. But you are "saving" the earth. Or so you've been told. That is sti up for debate. Plus a paid a bunch of money to plant trees. I offset more than enough. Or so I've been told. It's all relative.

 

[Kent88]

Again, value does not equal price.

That's still ambiguous, but you're obviously allowed to choose how you spend your money, using whatever criteria you want, without explaining it or justifying it to me or anyone else here.

 

[Kent88]

The salesman even said that the only reason to buy electric is to have a clear conscience about the environment. Nothing practical about it. No money saved. A 10k difference between two cars should come with more comfort or
more performancee. For those, you get less performance and less comfort. But you are "saving" the earth. Or so you've been told. That is sti up for debate. Plus a paid a bunch of money to plant trees. I offset more than enough. Or so I've been told. It's all relative.

Sounds like a salesman. Wants to sell you what he knows about, and what he is most familiar with.

 

[Bilsch]

The salesman even said that the only reason to buy electric is to have a clear conscience about the environment. Nothing practical about it. No money saved.

Of course the salesman said that since the dealership makes its money off of service. This is exactly why Tesla avoided the dealer sales model. It looks like GM is also trying to shed its dealers for electric models.

 

[Barbarossa]

Of course the salesman said that since the dealership makes its money off of service. This is exactly why Tesla avoided the dealer sales model. It looks like GM is also trying to shed its dealers for electric models.

Do you actually think that you are saving money? Because thinking like that, taking the bus saves you money.

You need to compare the price of your car with a similar car. And I guarantee you that you paid at least 10k more for equivalent.

 

[Kent88]

Nobody is looking for confrontation here.

 

[Kent88]

Do you actually think that you are saving money? Because thinking like that, taking the bus saves you money.

You need to compare the price of your car with a similar car. And I guarantee you that you paid at least 10k more for equivalent.

IMHO, that makes sense until you get into sports cars and luxury cars. When my grandpa bought his fancy (well, in my family's opinion it was fancy) Monte Carlo back in the early aughts, he was looking to buy a car that would make him feel good.

Bilsch has been around here for a while, and despite what he has said I'm still skeptical that a Tesla is as affordable of a vehicle as I believe he suggests. But I bet part of what he wanted was the prestige of owning a Tesla, just like my grandfather wanted the prestige of owning a Monte Carlo.

One thing Bilsch has brought up that makes sense is the Total Cost of Ownership of his Tesla, and it sounds like it's lower than I expected.

An analogy that comes to mind is buying a house with garbage insulation. It may have a cheap cost up front, but over the life of that house, unless a significant upgrade is made to the insulation, it's going to cost a lot to heat it in the winter. Buying a house with good insulation is probably more expensive up front, all else being equal, but it's cheaper to heat.

 

[Apple_Jacker]

So.... how many different brands of charging stations are out there now?
- Tesla
- Nissan's
- Ford/VW
- GM
- and now Rivian???

 

[Kent88]

So.... how many different brands of charging stations are out there now?
- Tesla
- Nissan's
- Ford/VW
- GM
- and now Rivian???

Not sure what you mean. If I use cell phone chargers as an example, to me it seems like most people are using some variety of USB, whether it's C or mini-A/B. Tesla is like Apple where they're kind of doing their own thing.

 

[bracconiere]

 

[Kent88]

Gosh, bracc, I'd think that you could afford better with the allowance that you get from the marshalls.

 

[Bilsch]

Do you actually think that you are saving money? Because thinking like that, taking the bus saves you money. You need to compare the price of your car with a similar car. And I guarantee you that you paid at least 10k more for equivalent.

Yes EV's cost more to purchase however they cost 1/2 to 1/5 the price to fuel with a fraction of the maintenance. Therefore depending on the model and extras there is a certain number of years or miles need to drive to reach parity in cost to ICE and then from there it's money in your pocket. How long that payoff is has many factors is the largest being the variable price of electricity so it's hard to generalize. The most recent studies I read said between 5 and 8 years, but in my case it will be sooner since I have solar and also qualified for the $7500 tax credit which took a large chunk out of the cost. Other factors to consider are depreciation as EV's hold their value better and if your utility offers a time of use discount which can improve the savings drastically.

So yes, I know that over the lifetime of my car I will save money even though it cost more to buy. Furthermore it is estimated that by 2023 the purchase price of BEV and ICE vehicles will reach parity and then things will get truly interesting.

Anyone interested in this topic should take the time to read this very in depth study done by consumer reports on lifetime cost analysis between BEV and ICE.

https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/EV-Ownership-Cost-Final-Report-1.pdf

 

[Bilsch]

Bilsch has been around here for a while, and despite what he has said I'm still skeptical that a Tesla is as affordable of a vehicle as I believe he suggests. But I bet part of what he wanted was the prestige of owning a Tesla, just like my grandfather wanted the prestige of owning a Monte Carlo.

Actually what I wanted was the autopilot, bigger battery, active pack cooling and the supercharger network. Other EV's are excellent choices for around town daily use, only needing to charge at night in the garage. But Tesla, so far, is the only EV able to road trip it almost anywhere (20,000 fast charging stations) without sitting waiting for slow charging or batteries to cool before doing so. Also when I bought they threw in lifetime supercharging so I'm tripping for free. Yay!

 

[Barbarossa]

Yes EV's cost more to purchase however they cost 1/2 to 1/5 the price to fuel with a fraction of the maintenance. Therefore depending on the model and extras there is a certain number of years or miles need to drive to reach parity in cost to ICE and then from there it's money in your pocket. How long that payoff is has many factors is the largest being the variable price of electricity so it's hard to generalize. The most recent studies I read said between 5 and 8 years, but in my case it will be sooner since I have solar and also qualified for the $7500 tax credit which took a large chunk out of the cost. Other factors to consider are depreciation as EV's hold their value better and if your utility offers a time of use discount which can improve the savings drastically.

So yes, I know that over the lifetime of my car I will save money even though it cost more to buy. Furthermore it is estimated that by 2023 the purchase price of BEV and ICE vehicles will reach parity and then things will get truly interesting.

Anyone interested in this topic should take the time to read this very in depth study done by consumer reports on lifetime cost analysis between BEV and ICE.

https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/EV-Ownership-Cost-Final-Report-1.pdf

How much did you pay for your homeplug? Got a colleague who got quoted 12k.

And in your report, they made a faulty comparison. They analyse the price saving up until you need a new battery, which cost as much as a new small car. So yeah. Until you need a battery, you save money.

 

[Kent88]

You keep talking about battery replacement. That is a big topic in itself.

There are some cars that seem to have batteries that do need to be replaced frequently enough that I'd almost call often, like a Nissan Leaf. But batteries like those that come in Tesla and GM are pretty durable. There is a variety in the world of EV batteries.

Then you consider how batteries handle certain environments, how they hold up over time, and how they hold up over time and a certain amount of use.

Then you have to consider the owner's expectations. From what I've heard and read about batteries in GM vehicles, and for the duration that I expect to own my car before I trade it, I shouldn't (no guarentee, but it seems like people who use it similar to the way I do, they don't have to replace their batteries yet) have to replace my high-voltage battery.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

How much did you pay for your homeplug? Got a colleague who got quoted 12k.

And in your report, they made a faulty comparison. They analyse the price saving up until you need a new battery, which cost as much as a new small car. So yeah. Until you need a battery, you save money.

No offense intended, but it sounds like you're following the bulk of the standard FUD on EVs. I'm not someone who is pro-EV or anti-EV... I think some of the pro-EV folks are looking at everything through rose-colored glasses. But what you're saying doesn't make a whole lot of actual sense.

First, typical prices for a Level 2 charger installation in your home are around $1K. Maybe your colleague who got quoted much higher didn't have the capacity in his electrical panel or his service to his home to do it, and would have needed major changes. But that's an outlier, not typical.

Second, although first-gen Nissan Leaf have a bad rap on battery, there is to date no real evidence that mainstream BEV have terrible battery degradation as a general rule. Tesla battery degradation at less than 10% after over 160,000 miles, according to latest data - Electrek

Third, in a previous post you said that a Prius was $10K more than a comparable Civic. Maybe that was true at the time you looked at the Prius--but you've said that you had an Edge and now a Mustang since then, so that was probably a few years ago. I posted that current pricing has the Prius sedan at only $3K higher than a Civic sedan. That, given about a 1.7x gas mileage, is a much smaller amount of time/mileage to recoup that extra cost. You did not acknowledge my post that the Prius isn't $10K higher currently, yet 52 minutes after I posted doubled down and again repeated the $10K number.

I don't get the sense that you're arguing in good faith here...