Double IPA Pliny the Elder Clone

[randomgnarkill]

I really don't understand. I followed the recipe to the T. Came in way under 1.040 4% really?.

 

[Shade]

I'd guess either the grain was garbage or you've made a pretty grievous error of process. If you get 4% beer when targetting 8% then sounds like efficiency of ~40%.. if you mashed decent grain at the right temperature it sounds hard to miss by so much.

 

[Shade]

Not that I am a master of recipes at all but I have been tinkering for a while now and I look at this and think really? .. that's it? It looks under-hopped on the whirlpool/dry hop stages, pretty normal malt bill, the only thing that stands out is a preposterous 60 minute charge and therefore BU/GU ratio of over 3 ... so yes, it will be very bitter, but otherwise it just looks unremarkable.

How is it that this is so good?

I've never had the original to know what it's like. I imagine folks will say stop hating and just make it.

 

[randomgnarkill]

I'd guess either the grain was garbage or you've made a pretty grievous error of process. If you get 4% beer when targetting 8% then sounds like efficiency of ~40%.. if you mashed decent grain at the right temperature it sounds hard to miss by so much.

Yeah. maybe the grains weren't fully milled or something.

 

[jojacques]

So wait...... I was about to start brewing this after reading the first couple of pages of this thread, but as I get near the end of it, Im not so sure anymore I want to......

If I still want to try out this brew, what are the recommended modifications to the original recipe??? (hard to pin point in those 880 posts!)

 

[jojacques]

Double post

 

[grassfeeder]

So wait...... I was about to start brewing this after reading the first couple of pages of this thread, but as I get near the end of it, Im not so sure I want to anymore ......

If I still want to try out this brew, what are the recommended modifications to the original recipe??? (hard to pin point in those 880 posts!)

I think its absolutely worth brewing. Pliny is still a very good beer and certainly one that would be fun to brew at home. The OG recipe is still great.

 

[oylerck]

Not that I am a master of recipes at all but I have been tinkering for a while now and I look at this and think really? .. that's it? It looks under-hopped on the whirlpool/dry hop stages, pretty normal malt bill, the only thing that stands out is a preposterous 60 minute charge and therefore BU/GU ratio of over 3 ... so yes, it will be very bitter, but otherwise it just looks unremarkable.

How is it that this is so good?

I've never had the original to know what it's like. I imagine folks will say stop hating and just make it.

The dry hop looks pretty good for a west coast IPA imho. Demand is all about scarcity and consistency, and I'm sure this is the basis for many west coast IPAs so there may be several copies in the commercial world.

 

[luizffgarcia]

Here is a Beersmith recipe scaled from the original recipe found on page 54 in case anyone is interested.

It is a 1 gallon recipe but Beersmith can scale it up for you no problem.

View attachment Pliny the Elder Paper Recipe.bsmx

 

[jojacques]

Trying this one tonight.
Wow, more than 3/4 of a pound of Hops!

 

[stickyfinger]

Yes, this taste only appears on IPAs.
A friend of mine also changed his lines to *I don't know what better tap lines* and he noticed a change in the taste of his brews for the first glass.

I never bottled carb an IPA, but I hope for you that this "too much CO2 volume" is the culprit!

Wow! I've been having this exact same problem in the last 6 months. I've had three batches of IPA go bad to diacetyl. All three batches were HEAVILY dry hopped beers. It's never happened in any of my other beers. It's not my fermentation. I can't believe it's not a long enough diacetyl rest. I'm so perplexed. I think I'm going to keep my dry hop down to 1 oz/gal and see if that helps. I'm also going to throw out all of my yeast and start over with fresh to make sure, but I don't think that is the problem either.

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

Wow! I've been having this exact same problem in the last 6 months. I've had three batches of IPA go bad to diacetyl. All three batches were HEAVILY dry hopped beers. It's never happened in any of my other beers. It's not my fermentation. I can't believe it's not a long enough diacetyl rest. I'm so perplexed. I think I'm going to keep my dry hop down to 1 oz/gal and see if that helps. I'm also going to throw out all of my yeast and start over with fresh to make sure, but I don't think that is the problem either.

I went back to pre-kegging bottling days procedure. Just did 1st dry hop. Primary sample was awesome. We'll see in 2 weeks.

Basically doing these things..
- using Whirlflocc.
- racking only the clean wort from kettle.
- oxygenate wort.
- adding 1st dry hop in primary after 7 days.
- will cold crash to 60F and rack to secondary and dry hop #2.
- collect as much hops with strainer and rack to bottling bucket.
-make some effort to CO2 coat during all these processes, but I didn't before kegging and the beer was really good.

I just want a good drinkable IPA!! Is that too much to ask??


Just to add. Other's on other IPA threads mentioned this issue also and apparently Safale-05 is a possible culprit.

 

[oylerck]

I listened to the latest dr homebrew today and the culprit for this guys diacetyl was his Bottling setup. Pediosomething was infecting his brews causing diacetyl. Could be worth looking into.

 

[stickyfinger]

I listened to the latest dr homebrew today and the culprit for this guys diacetyl was his Bottling setup. Pediosomething was infecting his brews causing diacetyl. Could be worth looking into.

the two things i've seen people talk about is not having a long enough diacetyl rest and having a pediococcus infection. however, pediococcus shouldn't be able to create diacetyl in 2 days in a cold keg. i could see it killing some bottles though. it's still in the back of my mind as an option though. thanks for the input.

 

[Braufessor]

Here is a link off of Probrewer.com - this is a real thing that impacts heavily dry hopped beers. I know there has been some research on it.... but, I have to track it down. From what was discussed in one of the sessions at NHC it basically has to do with large amounts of dry hops containing a certain amount of fermentable sugar in them which kicks the yeast back up and VDK is produced - which is a byproduct that leads to diacetyl. There have been a few different threads on pro brewer. I have experienced this a couple times - primarily when making a Hop Fu clone. I will post back more info when I am able to track it down.

Bottom line - it is a real thing. It has been causing people problems for several years even at the professional level. It is not well understood. If I was guessing, I would pin it on a combination of the idea of the Hops bringing an amount of fermentable sugar back into the beer, in combination with yeast that is "done" ...... and maybe oxygen??

http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?34257-Diacetyl-from-Dry-Hopping

 

[Braufessor]

I went back to pre-kegging bottling days procedure. Just did 1st dry hop. Primary sample was awesome. We'll see in 2 weeks.

Basically doing these things..
- using Whirlflocc.
- racking only the clean wort from kettle.
- oxygenate wort.
- adding 1st dry hop in primary after 7 days.
- will cold crash to 60F and rack to secondary and dry hop #2.
- collect as much hops with strainer and rack to bottling bucket.
-make some effort to CO2 coat during all these processes, but I didn't before kegging and the beer was really good.

I just want a good drinkable IPA!! Is that too much to ask??


Just to add. Other's on other IPA threads mentioned this issue also and apparently Safale-05 is a possible culprit.

I wonder if the cold crash is causing you problems??? Try a batch with a dry hop at day 4 and a second dry hop at Day 7 or 8. Then Cold crash around day 11-12. Bottle/keg on day 14..... Maybe that will keep the yeast doing their thing a bit longer and prevent the problems you have had.

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

I exclusively used 05 when starting brewing in 2014. This included bottling high dry hopped beers. This issue only started after kegging. I only started cold crashing 6 months ago in attempt to KEEP this issue from happening. Admittingly, I've raised the temp to about 60F from an ice bath. My current batch is an IPA test bed. Cold crashing now with 1st dry hop at day 7. Will transfer tomorrow, add 2nd dry hop and bottle after 12hrs. Primary sample could have been bottled! Ha!


Thanks for the info Brau! That article is 10yrs old...obviously hasn't been figured out yet.

And..if this technique doesn't work, will definitely do your suggestion!

 

[fun4stuff]

I went back to pre-kegging bottling days procedure. Just did 1st dry hop. Primary sample was awesome. We'll see in 2 weeks.

Basically doing these things..
- using Whirlflocc.
- racking only the clean wort from kettle.
- oxygenate wort.
- adding 1st dry hop in primary after 7 days.
- will cold crash to 60F and rack to secondary and dry hop #2.
- collect as much hops with strainer and rack to bottling bucket.
-make some effort to CO2 coat during all these processes, but I didn't before kegging and the beer was really good.

I just want a good drinkable IPA!! Is that too much to ask??


Just to add. Other's on other IPA threads mentioned this issue also and apparently Safale-05 is a possible culprit.

How are you using that strainer? Running a beer through a strainer or a strainer through the beer? Either way, that's an excellent way to cause oxygenation, the former being much worse.

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

How are you using that strainer? Running a beer through a strainer or a strainer through the beer? Either way, that's an excellent way to cause oxygenation, the former being much worse.

Yes, I agree with the oxygenation. My bottled ipas only lasted a month. But only 25% of my kegged ipas are good. Just trying to troubleshoot for now...

 

[Braufessor]

How are you using that strainer? Running a beer through a strainer or a strainer through the beer? Either way, that's an excellent way to cause oxygenation, the former being much worse.

Oh yeah...... don't do that. That absolutely would potentially introduce a tremendous amount of oxygen.

*Do a better job of letting hops settle out before transfer.
*Put a mesh screen over the dip tub in your keg to help prevent plugging up from hops that do make it through in the transfer.
***Find other strategies/methods.... But, straining your beer after it is fermented is definitely a technique to avoid. It is bad if you are dipping the strainer into fermenter to do this, it is even worse if you are running the beer through the strainer on its way to the bucket/keg.

Doing all hopping in primary is one way to avoid unnecessary oxygen. If you really want to get the beer off the first hops/yeast - this type of strategy can work very well (I have done this dozens of times). It takes a bit of getting the process down - but it can let you do a secondary hop, avoid oxygen and filter material out before kegging/bottling.
http://www.bear-flavored.com/2014/09/how-i-dry-hop-my-ipas-with-no-oxygen.html

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

Like I said, if I do everything I did years ago and have no 'butter', then at least I have an approach to take...just hitting the reset button for now. I like all the other ideas, but 1 thing at a time. Have another IPA batch ready to go, just want to see how this current one ends up.

Has anyone with the diacetyl issue ever try adding potassium sorbate?

 

[Braufessor]

Has anyone with the diacetyl issue ever try adding potassium sorbate?

Are you adding potassium sorbate? When/for what purpose?

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

Are you adding potassium sorbate? When/for what purpose?

I was just thinking if yeast is reactivating due to sugars in the hops causing this issue, wouldn't PS stop this?

 

[stickyfinger]

i think maybe a better desperate attempt would be to get some alpha acetolactate decarboxylase enzyme if it can be found at the homebrew level. It converts the precursor to diacetyl into another compound

https://www.abvickers.com/abv-alpha-acetolactate-decarboxylase/

 

[Braufessor]

I was just thinking if yeast is reactivating due to sugars in the hops causing this issue, wouldn't PS stop this?

Except that is the yeast that reabsorbs and gets rid of the diacetyl.... PS stops the yeast from budding and might prevent the yeast from cleaning up the beer???
https://byo.com/bock/item/303-brewing-science-controlling-diacetyl

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

My option B is to convince you great HBers to send me some for sampling! 😉

Pint House Pizza supplies top notch IPAs so I'm not going to stress. Will continue to work on this issue for sure.

Have a slew of lighter porters, stouts, dubbels, and hard lemonaid to tied me over.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

I hope to try this recipe and just finished reading all 896 messages on this forum. There was very little discussion on diacetyl (mostly in the last messages), but I could not find any person actually recommending doing a diacetyl rest for this beer. Why is this not being practiced as a standard procedure? Has anyone actually done one for this recipe? If not, why not?

 

[Pkrd]

Well I ramp all my ales up to 21°C to finish, but I don't know if you'd ever taste the diacetyl over the ton of hops anyway!

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Well I ramp all my ales up to 21°C to finish, but I don't know if you'd ever taste the diacetyl over the ton of hops anyway!

True, but some mentioned getting diacetyl tastes in their finished beer.

 

[stickyfinger]

Well I ramp all my ales up to 21°C to finish, but I don't know if you'd ever taste the diacetyl over the ton of hops anyway!

diacetyl is an ipa killer. still trying to find out what is causing it for me