Pale Ale is black

[Willygilly]

The boil volume was 5 gals.

 

[Bobby_M]

It was amber in color. Now, it's a somewhat darker shade of brown.

If it went into the fermenter amber and came out brown, the only thing that can do that is oxidation.

Nothing changed. I am fermenting 5 gallons of beer in a 25 gallon fermenter. After having thought about this discussion last night I decided to go back and rationalize the situation and lean on my education and experience with regard to the question: Does the unused volume of the vessel determine how much O2 will diffuse into the wort, assuming the vessel is sealed and at atmospheric pressure? The short answer is no.

You've jumped to an incorrect conclusion.

The reason is: Atmospheric pressure is what would cause oxygen to be forced into the homebrew solution. The volume of air above the surface of the solution doesn't matter because the pressure on the surface is the same everywhere. The area at the surface of the solution is what will determine the rate at which O2 will diffuse into the solution. So, since the vessel I am using has a reasonable inside diameter and is similar to any other vessel that might be used for homebrewing the amount of O2 that diffuses into the solution will be typical.

The air in that 20 gallons of headspace is 21% oxygen. It will continue to dissolve into the wort/beer until the beer is at 21% saturation or until the outgoing CO2 from fermentation drags it all out. It will take a much longer time to get purged out when the volume of gas is higher and the CO2 produced is fixed. The damaging effects begin immediately and fermentation does not.
Contrast that with a 7 gallon fermenter filled with 5.5 gallons of wort.

The thing is, you don't even need to understand why as much as you need to observe the result.

 

[Willygilly]

If it went into the fermenter amber and came out brown, the only thing that can do that is oxidation.

You've jumped to an incorrect conclusion.


The air in that 20 gallons of headspace is 21% oxygen. It will continue to dissolve into the wort/beer until the beer is at 21% saturation or until the outgoing CO2 from fermentation drags it all out. It will take a much longer time to get purged out when the volume of gas is higher and the CO2 produced is fixed. The damaging effects begin immediately and fermentation does not.
Contrast that with a 7 gallon fermenter filled with 5.5 gallons of wort.

The thing is, you don't even need to understand why as much as you need to observe the result.

It didn't come out yet. It is still in the fermenter, and I haven't jumped to anything. I won't have a conclusion until it's done. BUT, you've got it right; the result will tell the story. Nobody knows that yet. I will continue to sample the wort and once equilibrium is reached, and that will eventually happen, I will know where I stand with the solution. Right now there are just too many variables, and besides all this; IF it goes south I'll just start again. I've made many successful batches before, and I've got lotsa Pabst on backup. So, Bada bing, Bada boom. Thanks for your input!

 

[day_trippr]

Suspended yeast will make a beer appear darker than it actually is until fermentation is totally complete and as much of the yeast as possible has flocculated and the beer has cleared.

In my experience it's quite the opposite: suspended yeast lightens the apparent color. Indeed I can watch the top of the fermenter turn "darker" as the yeast start to drop and that portion of the beer column clears.

I'll provide a metaphor or analogy (not sure which applies best ): there are misguided souls that dump raw flour into their "neipas" to lighten the color and make them look "hazy"...

Cheers!

 

[camonick]

In my experience it's quite the opposite: suspended yeast lightens the apparent color. Indeed I can watch the top of the fermenter turn "darker" as the yeast start to drop and that portion of the beer column clears.

I'll provide a metaphor or analogy (not sure which applies best ): there are misguided souls that dump raw flour into their "neipas" to lighten the color and make them look "hazy"...

Cheers!

I have read conflicting statements, I guess. Here is a quote from this article.
…”The suspension of yeast, hop or grain particles in your beer will make it appear much darker than it would have been if those particles didn’t exist.”…
I have seen both situations. I don’t believe this to be the case one way or the other in this situation however. I understand what you’re saying when it’s in active fermentation. It is a milky color then. There are many other articles that support what you said too.

 

[passedpawn]

Man, you guys and the O2 boogyman. Sure, O2 is bad for beer. But it doesn't turn a light beer to dark in weeks. Cmon. Many of you have been around here for a LOOONG time.

I don't have answers, but normally in this sort of case there is missing information. (Watson, please gather the usual info)

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

It would be helpful to know what the boil volume is. If it's significantly dense, it will trap heat at the bottom of the pot and darken at an accelerated rate. That's why white table sugar will turn into a medium brown caramel color in a matter of minutes.

If it's a concentrated boil with LME, that's probably a fault in the process (not the ingredient). Partial boil with late additions (half the ingredients at the start of the boil, rest at the end) has been around since at least the early 2010s.

If the LME isn't dissolving, but sinking to the bottom, that's yet another process fault - make a slurry.

Once again, BBR Aug 25 / Nov 17, 2005.

 

[day_trippr]

Sure, O2 is bad for beer. But it doesn't turn a light beer to dark in weeks.

Pretty sure it can...

Cheers!

 

[FloppyKnockers]

This is why I love this forum.

I am going to have a heart attack and die of not surprise if there are cupcakes in this recipe.

After reading this, I'm thinking maillard reaction above all else.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

IIRC, Maillard reactions occur in any boiling wort (all-grain wort, DME-based wort, LME-based wort).

I brew a mix of BIAB recipes and DME recipes. WIth my DME recipes, I'm able to estimate and deliver color within a couple of SRM (generally ± 1-ish for lower SRM, ±2 in the amber-ish range).

Thought experiment: with fresh LME, set aside

1. storage and delivery faults
2. scorching and other mistakes converting the fresh LME into wort.

How is a properly prepared fresh LME based wort different from a properly prepared all-grain wort or a properly prepared DME based wort?​

​

 

[Willygilly]

Sorry guys. somehow I have misplaced my brewing instructions. I am usually very careful about keeping things together. Sometimes I can't remember what I did 4 hours ago. Anyhow the kit ingredients were all in a single box with proper ingredient amounts for 5 gallons of brew. It was professionally made and distributed and sold by Chico Brew Store (Chico, CA). The kit contents contained everything except the water: grains, DME, hops, yeast, bags for grain and hops and instructions.

I think everything will turn out fine, so thanks all for your comradery and your comments.

Cheers!

 

[Willygilly]

Well, I finally found the box (see attached image), but I have no idea what I did with the instructions and I'm quite sure I did not throw them out. I'm sure most will agree that a kit like this is really sort of child's play to make successfully. I can read, and I'm not stupid or senile (although I'm probably rapidly approaching senility), so I don't think anything went wrong while making the brew. My only concern is that it's not the color I expected, but maybe it's exactly what it's supposed to be. If so, it'll be the ONLY pale ale I've ever seen that color. I'll stop bugging the group about this now and I will post a glass of this from my first bottle in a few weeks.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

BrewMaster NorCal Pale Ale appears to be available from a number of online stores.

I picked one (link) at random.

I'll accept the possibility that there is a kit with identical packaging that that uses DME rather than LME.

OTOH, stale LME (e.g. 'on sale' kits are stored in hot garages for a number of months) appears to be involved in a number of 'extract darker than expected' topics in home brewing forums.

But without measuring LME color at the start of the boil, it's hard to know for sure.

 

[camonick]

Internet search results—

Kit Includes:

• Liquid Malt Extract
  • 1 x 8 lb pouch
• Pellet Hops
  • Perle
  • Magnum
  • Cascade
• Steeping Grains
  • Crystal 60
• Grain Steeping Bag
• Wort Clarifier
• CellarScience™ CALI Yeast
• Priming Sugar is NOT Included

Beer Stats:

• OG: 1.053
• SRM: 9
• IBU’s: 43
• ABV: 5.4%

As one who takes many pictures of beer, I can say it’s very hard to capture an accurate representation of the true color. Light, glass style, angle, shadows, quantity, etc. all make a difference. If it’s good beer, roll with it.

Edit:@BrewnWKopperKat posted as I was typing.

 

[Willygilly]

Yep, my mistake. It was LME, not DME.

 

[Bobby_M]

If it's a concentrated boil with LME, that's probably a fault in the process (not the ingredient). Partial boil with late additions (half the ingredients at the start of the boil, rest at the end) has been around since at least the early 2010s.

If the LME isn't dissolving, but sinking to the bottom, that's yet another process fault - make a slurry.

Once again, BBR Aug 25 / Nov 17, 2005.

I didn't suspect that the OP wanted to limit troubleshooting to one particular aspect of this unexpectedly dark result. We've been talking about ingredients, equipment, and process in this entire thread.

 

[Bobby_M]

Man, you guys and the O2 boogyman. Sure, O2 is bad for beer. But it doesn't turn a light beer to dark in weeks. Cmon. Many of you have been around here for a LOOONG time.

I don't have answers, but normally in this sort of case there is missing information. (Watson, please gather the usual info)

Actually oxygen can change a beer from yellow to brown in a matter of hours.

 

[Bobby_M]

• SRM: 9

As one who takes many pictures of beer, I can say it’s very hard to capture an accurate representation of the true color. Light, glass style, angle, shadows, quantity, etc. all make a difference. If it’s good beer, roll with it.
View attachment 778617
Edit:@BrewnWKopperKat posted as I was typing.

All that is true but photograhic challenges aside,

This:

Is unambiguously very much darker than this:

Based on all of the discussions so far, I think it's most likely a combination of all three of these things:

1. Very old LME stored at room temperature in a store. I know the Brewer's Best kits have a package date right on the box because I sell them in my store but I'm not sure if that info is put on the Brewmaster kits or on the pouch of LME (that's Morebeer by the way). I'm not sure if it's any indication, but as a retailer I can see that Brewmaster is aggressively discounting that kit to retailers.

2. Possible further darkening in the kettle due to some settling at the bottom, scorching the sugars.

3. Oxidation due to a very large fermenter head space. Again, if it went in amber and came out brown, this is a reasonable conclusion.

If it ends up tasking like sherry, wet cardboard, or is completely devoid of hop character, the oxidation thing can certainly be confirmed.

 

[Immocles]

I’ll add anecdotally here. I often brew 2.5-3g batches in a 6.5g fermenter. I realize the size difference between that and OP, but I’ve done so with nearly zero problems. The problem occurred when I would dry hop or open the fermenter after fermentation was over. Those beers degraded quickly with that amount of headspace and no fermentation gas to scrub oxygen. If OP has been opening that fermenter with that amount of headspace to pull samples/dry hop/check progress etc etc , that’s going to turn an amber colored beer much darker in a hurry, in my experience.

 

[Willygilly]

This will be my last post on this subject.
1. I'm assuming that those involved with this thread have seen the photo showing the color of the sample draw from the fermenter and agree that it does appear darker than expected for a pale ale.

2. The fermenter (25 gal double wall stainless steel, cylindrical vessel) has a valve near the bottom. I draw my samples from there, so the air tight seal at the top which is a very large 6-8" diameter & ~1.5" thick viton rubber 'washer' has not been removed since the wort was put into the fermenter. Once again I will reiterate: Since the solution has reached equilibrium with the gas in the container it will not absorb any more O2 until the pressure in the container increases, which cannot happen because the air lock is still intact and the interior of the vessel is at atmospheric pressure.

Actually, I do remember now that I opened it once to take a picture.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Once again I will reiterate: Since the solution has reached equilibrium with the gas in the container it will not absorb any more O2 until the pressure in the container increases, which cannot happen because the air lock is still intact and the interior of the vessel is at atmospheric pressure.

For your next batch, consider taking samples (to properly measure color) at each step in your process. From there, you should be able to identify the step(s) that are causing the beer to darken excessively.

And, as always, if extra light LME starts at SRM 8 (rather than 4), adding it late in the boil won't produce an SRM 6 beer.

 

[Bobby_M]

This will be my last post on this subject.
1. I'm assuming that those involved with this thread have seen the photo showing the color of the sample draw from the fermenter and agree that it does appear darker than expected for a pale ale.

2. The fermenter (25 gal double wall stainless steel, cylindrical vessel) has a valve near the bottom. I draw my samples from there, so the air tight seal at the top which is a very large 6-8" diameter & ~1.5" thick viton rubber 'washer' has not been removed since the wort was put into the fermenter. Once again I will reiterate: Since the solution has reached equilibrium with the gas in the container it will not absorb any more O2 until the pressure in the container increases, which cannot happen because the air lock is still intact and the interior of the vessel is at atmospheric pressure.

I understand you're worn out at this point and you don't want to talk about it anymore. If you want to avoid the issue in the future, you should switch to a fermenter with less head space. The 20 odd gallons of air that was initially in the fermenter is what did the bulk of the damage.

As you draw samples out of the valve, the vacuum created inside has to equalize to atmospheric pressure somehow so it's either bubbling room air backwards through your airlock or it's leaking in through the larger seal. At this point, I doubt it can get any more oxidized that it already is so that's a moot point.

I'm not looking for a reply. I just want your beer to be better for your own enjoyment. If you like it the way it is, then cheers!

 

[passedpawn]

Actually oxygen can change a beer from yellow to brown in a matter of hours.

Seems pretty simple to test, right?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Seems pretty simple to test, right?

earlier in this topic, someone mentioned

For [OPs] next batch, consider taking samples (to properly measure color) at each step in your process. From there, [OP] should be able to identify the step(s) that are causing the beer to darken excessively.

It may be that the "hard part" is determining how much beer normally darkens at each step in the process. A topic for the "brew science" forum?