Pale Ale is black

[Willygilly]

I hate to blame on anything, but if there is anything I guess I could say it's due to my absent mindedness at age 68.

 

[bracconiere]

at age 68.

time does fly doesn't it.....

 

[camonick]

Suspended yeast will make a beer appear darker than it actually is until fermentation is totally complete and as much of the yeast as possible has flocculated and the beer has cleared.

 

[bracconiere]

Suspended yeast will make a beer appear darker than it actually is until fermentation is totally complete and most of the yeast has flocculated and the beer has cleared.

i'd usually call that opaque though? kinda whitish?

 

[camonick]

i'd usually call that opaque though? kinda whitish?

Suspended yeast will make a beer appear darker than it actually is…

Maybe I should say “can make” instead of “will make”… depending on recipe. It definitely prohibits light from passing through.

 

[bracconiere]

Maybe I should say “can make” instead of “will make”… depending on recipe. It definitely prohibits light from passing through.

on that note, you know more about brewing then me...if it's a fruit bomb, would that leave it MORE susceptible to oxidation? i've had this same sorta thing happen to me with fruit bombs...

edit: which would bring up the question what temp was it fermented at?

 

[camonick]

on that note, you know more about brewing then me...if it's a fruit bomb, would that leave it MORE susceptible to oxidation? i've had this same sorta thing happen to me with fruit bombs...

edit: which would bring up the question what temp was it fermented at?

Fruit bomb? Do you mean esters or actual fruit. If esters, I’d say no because high dissolved oxygen levels in the wort tend to inhibit ester formation, whereas high sugar concentrations increase ester levels. Higher alcohol beers tend to be marked by high ester levels, too. If fruit, yes, depending on how and when the fruit is added. Dumped in and splashed when fermentation is complete or splashing into a secondary would definitely increase the risk.

 

[pdxal]

Did the kit have a high gravity boil then top off with water? If so, wort often darkens with this, making many pale ales turn into ambers.

 

[Willygilly]

Did the kit have a high gravity boil then top off with water? If so, wort often darkens with this, making many pale ales turn into ambers.

Yes, I guess that must be it. Thanks!

 

[lumpher]

I skimmed through this thread, being it's so long, and back and forth with corrections, but I do want to come back to the original situation... fermenting 5 gallons in a 25 gallon fermenter, or did that info change?

 

[Willygilly]

No change. You got it correctly.

 

[Bobby_M]

If the kit had malt syrup (liquid malt extract), the stuff darkens pretty significantly as it sits on the shelf.

On the left, 2 months old and on the right 2 years old.

Then a concentrated boil will darken wort whether or not it was with old malt extract. Also note that a concentrated boil is not ideal for a hoppy beer since hop bitterness gets diluted with the top off water.


Another possibility is that the kit had incorrect ingredients in it.

If the wort went into the fermenter dark, the beer may still be oxidized but it wouldn't be the primary reason for the color.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Secrets to Keeping your Liquid Extracts Fresh - Brewing With Briess (2016).

There is "actionable" information in the article, some of which has been mentioned in forums by number of people here for a number of years:

Storing your CBW®​

While you can’t change the way the your extract was shipped to your local homebrew store or even how they stored the product, you can check the date to ensure you are getting the freshest product available and then properly store at your home.

When properly stored, LMEs will keep for two years, and DMEs have an even longer shelf life. If you purchase an LME and do not intend on using it right away, a safe option is to place it in your freezer. This will keep the integrity of the malt extract without changes in flavor or color. However, you’ll want to keep in mind that the second you pull it out of the freezer you will be exposing it to a drastic temperature change and will want to use it right away.

FWIW, the photos ealier in this topic have captions that help set a context. I'm including the full photo and caption for those who don't follow links.

 

[Willygilly]

Nothing changed. I am fermenting 5 gallons of beer in a 25 gallon fermenter. After having thought about this discussion last night I decided to go back and rationalize the situation and lean on my education and experience with regard to the question: Does the unused volume of the vessel determine how much O2 will diffuse into the wort, assuming the vessel is sealed and at atmospheric pressure? The short answer is no. The reason is: Atmospheric pressure is what would cause oxygen to be forced into the homebrew solution. The volume of air above the surface of the solution doesn't matter because the pressure on the surface is the same everywhere. The area at the surface of the solution is what will determine the rate at which O2 will diffuse into the solution. So, since the vessel I am using has a reasonable inside diameter and is similar to any other vessel that might be used for homebrewing the amount of O2 that diffuses into the solution will be typical.

 

[ncbrewer]

Atmospheric pressure is what would cause oxygen to be forced into the homebrew solution. The volume of air above the surface of the solution doesn't matter because the pressure on the surface is the same everywhere. The area at the surface of the solution is what will determine the rate at which O2 will diffuse into the solution. So, since the vessel I am using has a reasonable inside diameter and is similar to any other vessel that might be used for homebrewing the amount of O2 that diffuses into the solution will be typical.

Something to consider: CO2 is produced during fermentation and a combination of CO2 and O2 exit through the airlock. So after fermentation has started, the O2 concentration in the headspace will be greater with a larger headspace.

 

[Willygilly]

O2 will only diffuse into the solution if there is increased pressure in the vessel, but the airlock is releasing internal gases and the internal pressure remains the same; atmospheric. Still the vessel volume plays no role in O2 absorption in the solution.

 

[hotbeer]

Someone else ask I think, but what color was the wort when you put it in the fermenter?

 

[Willygilly]

It was amber in color. Now, it's a somewhat darker shade of brown.

 

[ncbrewer]

O2 will only diffuse into the solution if there is increased pressure in the vessel, but the airlock is releasing internal gases and the internal pressure remains the same; atmospheric. Still the vessel volume plays no role in O2 absorption in the solution.

You make a very interesting and potentially significant point. There is a lot of effort made by brewers to keep air out of the fermenter headspace. Some draw off samples while keeping low CO2 pressure on the headspace to exclude air. Some siphon off the beer through the airlock hole to keep air entry to a minimum. Personally, I use a 7.9 gallon bucket fermenter for 5 gallons of beer - more than most. And I take my early gravity samples by removing the lid and gently dipping a cup into the beer - not considered optimum. If your idea of O2 concentration not affecting absorption is correct, much of the effort being made might not be necessary. I'm not a chemist and can't really say.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

In addition to LME darkening as it ages, the way one uses it on brew day will darken it more. That is why many brewers will hold half the extract for a late addition In the boil. Remembering to turn off the heat source and move the kettle off the hot rack prevents burning the extract. Pardon me if this was allready discussed. I didn’t notice in a quick perusal of the thread.

 

[camonick]

In addition to LME darkening as it ages, the way one uses it on brew day will darken it more. That is why many brewers will hold half the extract for a late addition In the boil. Remembering to turn off the heat source and move the kettle off the hot rack prevents burning the extract. Pardon me if this was allready discussed. I didn’t notice in a quick perusal of the thread.

OP still hasn’t provided the 5 gallon recipe used… we have no idea what the ingredients were, let alone AG or extract.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

In addition to LME darkening as it ages, the way one uses it on brew day will darken it more. That is why many brewers will hold half the extract for a late addition In the boil.

But what about that number from BBR (Aug 25 & Nov 17 2005) where it is stated that extract darkens about one SRM during a 45 minute boil? It's a number that's been confirmed with DME. My first attempt at confirming it with LME started with light red colored pilsen LME .

If the color of extra light LME on brew day is SRM 8, a shorter boil for some of it isn't going to create an SRM 5 wort.

 

[camonick]

But what about that number from BBR (Aug 25 & Nov 17 2005) where it is stated that extract darkens about one SRM during a 45 minute boil? It's a number that's been confirmed with DME. My first attempt at confirming it with LME started with light red colored pilsen LME (full stop).

See my post above yours.

OP still hasn’t provided the 5 gallon recipe used… we have no idea what the ingredients were, let alone AG or extract.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

we have no idea what the ingredients were, let alone AG or extract.

I noticed that yesterday just before I posted this (below) elsewhere. Some of my posts here have been in response to specific troubleshooting steps in this process.

a troubleshooters guide to "darker than expected" extract-based beer

• is a sufficiently compelete recipe, process, and brew day notes available?
• If there is LME in the recipe, is the pre-boil color of the LME known [3]?
• Is the beer clear?
• Is the beer being evaluated properly?
  • comparing to another beer of known color using the same glass style, light, ... ?
  • appropriately estimating SRM?
• Is the recipe able to deliver the estimated SRM [4]?
• ...

or most steps, if the answer to the question is "no", troubleshooting probably ends and speculation probably begins.

---

Statements that can be considered 'facts' when troubleshooting:

• during the boil, wort will darken about 1 SRM [1]
• with DME/LME, as SG goes up, SRM goes up. [2]
• ...

and some statements that are believed to be correct

• concentrated boils produce darker wort
• ...

---

[1] BBR podcasts Aug 25, 2005 / Nov 17 2005
[2] Briess DME/LME product information sheets
[3] one way to measure it: BYO Big Book of Homebrewing, 1e, p 19 (?).
[4] mistakes in recipe conversion, very light colors are 'challenging', concentrated boil (?), ...

 

[hotbeer]

Oh... woops. Wrong kit instructions. Actually made with a 5 gal pale ale kit

So what ever became of this. I've never seen any instructions or recipe from you. All there is the picture of the kit contents which don't give any specifics. Not that I really expect the recipe in the kit to give any specifics. But there is some hope.

And that's a 1 gallon kit. So did you do 5 of them? Or like when you got weeks and days mixed up, are you getting litres and gallons mixed up?

Did the bag of Crystal Malt have any info on it such as the Lovibond? Some English Pale Ales can be quite dark to those of us use to straw colored beer.

 

[bracconiere]

O2 will only diffuse into the solution if there is increased pressure in the vessel,

chemical reactions will occur at the surface? it's not about pressure i don't think....?

edit: this might help, not sure...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_browning#Enzymatic_browning

 

[Gilbert Spinning Horse]

I think the problem with having 5x the headspace is the difficulty in the CO2 produced from the ferment purging all the O2 from the space.

 

[KiwiBruce]

I hate to blame on anything, but if there is anything I guess I could say it's due to my absent mindedness at age 68.

There's your problem right there!...You are definitely not drinking enough beer...at your age you shouldn't have a mind left!...absent or not you still have one, so drink up Buddy! Drown that st##!

 

[Willygilly]

I noticed that yesterday just before I posted this (below) elsewhere. Some of my posts here have been in response to specific troubleshooting steps in this process.

There's your problem right there!...You are definitely not drinking enough beer...at your age you shouldn't have a mind left!...absent or not you still have one, so drink up Buddy! Drown that st##!

Hahaha... well I am just thankful I'm still able to enjoy family and friends. This brewing hobby helps to provide a little entertainment and something to do, so I'll keep chugging along. Thanks for the spiritual advise.

 

[Bobby_M]

In addition to LME darkening as it ages, the way one uses it on brew day will darken it more. That is why many brewers will hold half the extract for a late addition In the boil. Remembering to turn off the heat source and move the kettle off the hot rack prevents burning the extract. Pardon me if this was allready discussed. I didn’t notice in a quick perusal of the thread.

It would be helpful to know what the boil volume is. If it's significantly dense, it will trap heat at the bottom of the pot and darken at an accelerated rate. That's why white table sugar will turn into a medium brown caramel color in a matter of minutes.