I appreciate JonnyRotten's post as it made me think and consider things I had not previously considered. Thank you!
Thanks brotherI appreciate JonnyRotten's post as it made me think and consider things I had not previously considered. Thank you!
Sodium Percarbonate is the main ingredient in oxiclean. When mixed with water, it disassociates into hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate. Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidizer which is used as a disinfectant. It generally requires a contact time of 10min to disinfectant.
Now that we can consider sodium percabonate a disinfectant, we need to go back and evaluate the difference between a disinfectant and a sanitizer. Sanitizers kill 99.999% quickly, but disinfectants kill 100% slowly.
I believe that 10 minute time was based on a 7% hydrogen peroxide solution and if I'm not mistaken pH plays a roll as well and works best for this purpose in acid medium. So I don't think your safe to assume that any percarbonate solution, with an unknown quantity of formed H2O2, is equal to the peroxide sanitizing solutions you are referring to. There are a lot of variables at work here.
I'd think that if percarbonate worked so well as a sanitizer or sterilizer we would see it being used for this purpose more in industry.
Do you know, is chlorine dioxide being used much in the big breweries?
Some how...some way...my response was deleted...as was my thank you....Ill take a picture of this post so when we agree and are cordial theres proof we can actually get along without continuous arguing..Buy the Oxiclean and use it...if it fails you post the reason why. Like I said from post #1 use it with confidence....I could not be more disappointed that my "thanks brother" response was deleted....is that were we're at...no friendliness allowed? WE cant say "thanks brother" without it being deleted? Or did I miss something?
Do you know, is chlorine dioxide being used much in the big breweries?
Neither is StarSan for that matter.Considering some folks use that to "clean" harvested yeast I'm going to guess it's not particularly effective for all of the things breweries worry about - including wild yeast...
Cheers!
@JONNYROTTEN and everyone else, i ask you to look up the action in which oxiclean does its thing before jumping to conclusions of what is or is not "safe."
Sodium Percarbonate is the main ingredient in oxiclean. When mixed with water, it disassociates into hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate. Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidizer which is used as a disinfectant. It generally requires a contact time of 10min to disinfectant.
Now that we can consider sodium percabonate a disinfectant, we need to go back and evaluate the difference between a disinfectant and a sanitizer. Sanitizers kill 99.999% quickly, but disinfectants kill 100% slowly.
Disinfectant like oxi needs to be rinsed. So does bleach, so what, big deal, who cares. Unless you are using septic wate to rinse, you have nothing to be concerned about. Dump and Fill a plastic water bottle with your tap water and cap it. Leave it for a month. Anything grow? No, your fine to proceed.
But, but, what if i accidentally introduced germs when i used my garden hose from my yard to fill/rinse my container? Then it doesn't matter how aseptic your cleaning regime may be, you just contaminated after cleaning. Star-san or not you dun screwed the pooch in this.
Remember though, you don't need to be "sterile," you only need to create an environment where your chosen infection (yeast) can out compete the other microbes. Many of the peeps out here are over-complicating and over-thinking the process. Not saying that you are wrong, but pointing out that many of us shoot the horse after its already dead, just to be sure.
And for the record, I beat dead horses in my fermenting practices. The only infections I've had are from wild/open fermentations of wild vegetable greens where they are salt rinsed then left to ferment in their own brine. This was from incomplete submerging of the material and aerobic microbes began to reproduce. Never in a beer, wine or cider.
Do you know, is chlorine dioxide being used much in the big breweries?
never put boiling water in a glass carboy.
Lol...I guess there were some who were "triggered" by our sibling-esk rhetoric and banter. Thanks to the mods who keep us heathens in line...
Anyways, this thread has opened my eyes to trying oxiclean, and I do plan on trying it in place of my PBW. As it seems its an equal, but cheaper, cleaner if nothing else...
I just don't have the cahoonas to use it without a santizer...
Do any oxi-clean users have a good source for bulk purchase?
We have a (very very long) thread on here about making your own PBW. It uses oxiclean, but also a couple of other ingredients- Seventh Generation Dish Detergent, and TSP.
I bought big boxes of those from Amazon a couple of years ago, spending about $30.
I now have a lifetime supply of homemade PBW.
The thing that is important is to get the oxiclean free, with no fragrance. It's actually hard to find, but you can find it on Amazon. I have a friend who sells a very good version of oxiclean free. I don't have that link handy right now, but even with shipping it's cheaper than buying oxiclean on Amazon.
PBW has a couple of things pure oxiclean doesn't- like the detergent part and a chelating agent. I have hard water, and the chelator really makes a big difference. With 100% oxiclean, my stainless has a carbonate film on it and my carboys get a film as well, and it's impossible to rinse off. With PBW, or the homemade version of it, I don't get that film and it rinses right off.
To repassivate stainless steel, I use Acid #5 from Five Star. It also works well in really cleaning your gear. A typical clean in breweriess is to do an alkaline wash (PBW) and burst rinse, followed by an acid wash (Acid #5) and burst rinse.
I don’t use glass FVs. Goes without saying not to pour boiling water onto anything glass (except Pyrex).
You do realize that when moderators openly taunt members...unprovoked...on this very thread, it makes it difficult to keep things civil. People that live in glass houses.....This is not a dig on the staff....but it is fact and should be noted along side members being corrected for their postsBut taunting moderators who don't allow inane posts to clutter up the forum, after getting some robust PMs about this thread, is not going to be allowed.
Based on a recommendation from another forum member, I've been using this stuff: https://www.kegconnection.com/brew-clean-choose-your-size/
which claims to be very friendly to stainless steel and also has Sodium Carbonate Peroxyhydrate in it as an oxidizer. It does the business, but I wouldn't call it inexpensive. It positions itself as a non-caustic alternative to PBW. It says it helps to protect metal from corrosion, so maybe it has a repassivator in it.
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Dude, you're going to derail your own thread! Let's stay focused on your OP and let the past rest in peace.You do realize that when moderators openly taught members...unprovoked...on this very thread, it makes it difficult to keep things civil. People that live in glass houses.....This is not a dig on the staff....but it is fact and should be noted along side members being corrected for their posts
Agreed...moving forward.Dude, you're going to derail your own thread! Let's stay focused on your OP and let the past rest in peace.
I now have a lifetime supply of homemade PBW
That has been my cleaner from day 2. 34 batches later, I feel pretty confident in the results, and it is no rinse. This was a very interesting thread, emotions were a little high at times, but I learned alot from the discussion.I was a winemaker long before brewing, and One-step is sold as a cleaner/sanitizer in winemaking shops, or at least was back then.
My understanding is that it actually IS a sanitizer, but cannot be labeled as such without some sort of FDA labeling requirements. I believe One-step and oxiclean are very similar if not identical in formulation.
I have one of those under the cabinet from ages ago. I probably read the same thread and was scared to use it. Now it seems its actually both but not labeled as such. I should have used it long ago.Somewhat off topic but following the discussion of alternatives. One Step came included in my equipment kit in June 2011. It was iirc, a 4 ounce jar. I quit using it when I read a thread here on HBT and the consensus was that it did neither cleaning or sanitizing well. I then started using oxyclean or the generics for cleaning and Starsan for sanitizing. 7+ years later I still have half that jar - somewhere.
I will continue to use both until I have been convinced that Oxyclean alone can do the job. So far I am not.
Out of curiosity, I have a bucket that had an infected batch in for months before I dumped it....I then threw it outside without cleaning and it and after months collecting rain water it had Millions of mosquitoes in it with even more larvae enough to make you sick lookin at it. Its been sitting like that for years to the point leaves are decomposing in it.I will continue to use both until I have been convinced that Oxyclean alone can do the job. So far I am not.
And to think everyone who uses tap water for topoff and no infections. Hhmm.Out of curiosity, I have a bucket that had an infected batch in for months before I dumped it....I then threw it outside without cleaning and it and after months collecting rain water it had Millions of mosquitoes in it with even more larvae enough to make you sick lookin at it. Its been sitting like that for years to the point leaves are decomposing in it.
I never had a single desire to ever use it for brewing again and was going to dedicate it to yard use..........If I, under the veil of science washed out the leaves and dirt and dead mosquitoes and used NOTHING but Oxiclean to clean it...and...turned out a good beer in the name of science WITHOUT infections of any kind would that convince you? West nile would be my concern...not lookin to die over a beer test
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West nile would be my concern...not lookin to die over a beer test
Exactly...I'm one of those people that actually believes the Gov't is NOT trying to kill me and the tap water most of us brewers use is plenty safe...If me and my family are willing to drink it unfiltered and I'm still alive good chance Its safe enough to rinse out a bucket I'm makin beer inAnd to think everyone who uses tap water for topoff and no infections. Hhmm.
I'm borderline 2 out of three...Maybe I should rethink it LOLWest nile only kills the young, weak, and the elderly. I often wonder why my horses can be vaccinated for it but people cant
Plus a healthy pitch rate.Exactly...I'm one of those people that actually believes the Gov't is NOT trying to kill me and the tap water most of us brewers use is plenty safe...If me and my family are willing to drink it unfiltered and I'm still alive good chance Its safe enough to rinse out a bucket I'm makin beer in
Out of curiosity, I have a bucket that had an infected batch in for months before I dumped it....I then threw it outside without cleaning and it and after months collecting rain water it had Millions of mosquitoes in it with even more larvae enough to make you sick lookin at it. Its been sitting like that for years to the point leaves are decomposing in it.
I never had a single desire to ever use it for brewing again and was going to dedicate it to yard use..........If I, under the veil of science washed out the leaves and dirt and dead mosquitoes and used NOTHING but Oxiclean to clean it...and...turned out a good beer in the name of science WITHOUT infections of any kind would that convince you? West nile would be my concern...not lookin to die over a beer test
The thing that is important is to get the oxiclean free, with no fragrance. It's actually hard to find, but you can find it on Amazon. I have a friend who sells a very good version of oxiclean free. I don't have that link handy right now, but even with shipping it's cheaper than buying oxiclean on Amazon.
I appreciate JonnyRotten's post as it made me think and consider things I had not previously considered. Thank you!
And we're back.... LolYou do realize that when moderators openly taunt members...unprovoked...on this very thread, it makes it difficult to keep things civil. People that live in glass houses.....This is not a dig on the staff....but it is fact and should be noted along side members being corrected for their posts
No.... we're not LOLAnd we're back.... Lol
You do realize that when moderators openly taunt members...unprovoked...on this very thread, it makes it difficult to keep things civil. People that live in glass houses.....This is not a dig on the staff....but it is fact and should be noted along side members being corrected for their posts
Thanks for askin...it was deleted...most likely by the Mod who posted it after being called out...again, moving on...Which post are you referring to? Post #?
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