Oxiclean...two years and no infections

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Bilsch

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Sodium Percarbonate is the main ingredient in oxiclean. When mixed with water, it disassociates into hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate. Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidizer which is used as a disinfectant. It generally requires a contact time of 10min to disinfectant.

Now that we can consider sodium percabonate a disinfectant, we need to go back and evaluate the difference between a disinfectant and a sanitizer. Sanitizers kill 99.999% quickly, but disinfectants kill 100% slowly.
I believe that 10 minute time was based on a 7% hydrogen peroxide solution and if I'm not mistaken pH plays a roll as well and works best for this purpose in acid medium. So I don't think you are safe to assume that any percarbonate solution, with an unknown quantity of formed H2O2, is equal to the peroxide sanitizing solutions you are referring to. There are a lot of variables at work here.
I'd think that if percarbonate worked so well as a sanitizer or sterilizer we would see it being used for this purpose more in industry.
 
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I believe that 10 minute time was based on a 7% hydrogen peroxide solution and if I'm not mistaken pH plays a roll as well and works best for this purpose in acid medium. So I don't think your safe to assume that any percarbonate solution, with an unknown quantity of formed H2O2, is equal to the peroxide sanitizing solutions you are referring to. There are a lot of variables at work here.
I'd think that if percarbonate worked so well as a sanitizer or sterilizer we would see it being used for this purpose more in industry.
Do you know, is chlorine dioxide being used much in the big breweries?
 

Bilsch

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Do you know, is chlorine dioxide being used much in the big breweries?
I've seen papers on the subject of its use in dairy and brewing operations but have no direct knowledge of who is using what. Maybe Qhrumphf knows more.
 

GoeHaarden

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Some how...some way...my response was deleted...as was my thank you....Ill take a picture of this post so when we agree and are cordial theres proof we can actually get along without continuous arguing..Buy the Oxiclean and use it...if it fails you post the reason why. Like I said from post #1 use it with confidence....I could not be more disappointed that my "thanks brother" response was deleted....is that were we're at...no friendliness allowed? WE cant say "thanks brother" without it being deleted? Or did I miss something?
Lol...I guess there were some who were "triggered" by our sibling-esk rhetoric and banter. Thanks to the mods who keep us heathens in line...

Anyways, this thread has opened my eyes to trying oxiclean, and I do plan on trying it in place of my PBW. As it seems its an equal, but cheaper, cleaner if nothing else...

I just don't have the cahoonas to use it without a santizer...

Do any oxi-clean users have a good source for bulk purchase?
 

day_trippr

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Do you know, is chlorine dioxide being used much in the big breweries?
Considering some folks use that to "clean" harvested yeast I'm going to guess it's not particularly effective for all of the things breweries worry about - including wild yeast...

Cheers!
 

Qhrumphf

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Considering some folks use that to "clean" harvested yeast I'm going to guess it's not particularly effective for all of the things breweries worry about - including wild yeast...

Cheers!
Neither is StarSan for that matter.

I don't know much about it. As bilsch said, there are papers on it though, so someone somewhere is probably using it.
 

505-Brewer

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@JONNYROTTEN and everyone else, i ask you to look up the action in which oxiclean does its thing before jumping to conclusions of what is or is not "safe."
Sodium Percarbonate is the main ingredient in oxiclean. When mixed with water, it disassociates into hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate. Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidizer which is used as a disinfectant. It generally requires a contact time of 10min to disinfectant.

Now that we can consider sodium percabonate a disinfectant, we need to go back and evaluate the difference between a disinfectant and a sanitizer. Sanitizers kill 99.999% quickly, but disinfectants kill 100% slowly.

Disinfectant like oxi needs to be rinsed. So does bleach, so what, big deal, who cares. Unless you are using septic wate to rinse, you have nothing to be concerned about. Dump and Fill a plastic water bottle with your tap water and cap it. Leave it for a month. Anything grow? No, your fine to proceed.

But, but, what if i accidentally introduced germs when i used my garden hose from my yard to fill/rinse my container? Then it doesn't matter how aseptic your cleaning regime may be, you just contaminated after cleaning. Star-san or not you dun screwed the pooch in this.

Remember though, you don't need to be "sterile," you only need to create an environment where your chosen infection (yeast) can out compete the other microbes. Many of the peeps out here are over-complicating and over-thinking the process. Not saying that you are wrong, but pointing out that many of us shoot the horse after its already dead, just to be sure.

And for the record, I beat dead horses in my fermenting practices. The only infections I've had are from wild/open fermentations of wild vegetable greens where they are salt rinsed then left to ferment in their own brine. This was from incomplete submerging of the material and aerobic microbes began to reproduce. Never in a beer, wine or cider.
Amen.
 

505-Brewer

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Do you know, is chlorine dioxide being used much in the big breweries?
I don’t know about “big” breweries (AB Inbev etc) but yes chlorine dioxide is used and is very effective in many craft breweries. That, peracetic acid and hot water/steam seem to be the top three.

Birko corporation sells a sodium chlorite solution which when activated with acid (we use citric acid) releases ClO2. Look for articles on their website by their lead chemist Dana Johnson. Lots of good info there.
We shoot for 25-50 ppm. Works great.

Iodophor is used for sani’ing parts w squirt bottles and soaking. Ive yet to see a brewery use Starsan.
 

bendog15

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I have been using oxyclean (and starsan) since day one and not a single infected brew.
Just got a new ss brewtech kettle and it says specifically NOT TO USE OXYCLEAN. I’m a bit perturbed. Does anyone use oxyclean on ssbrewtech kettles? Don’t wanna buy pbw or really switch up my normal cleaning routine....
 

Yooper

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Lol...I guess there were some who were "triggered" by our sibling-esk rhetoric and banter. Thanks to the mods who keep us heathens in line...

Anyways, this thread has opened my eyes to trying oxiclean, and I do plan on trying it in place of my PBW. As it seems its an equal, but cheaper, cleaner if nothing else...

I just don't have the cahoonas to use it without a santizer...

Do any oxi-clean users have a good source for bulk purchase?
We have a (very very long) thread on here about making your own PBW. It uses oxiclean, but also a couple of other ingredients- Seventh Generation Dish Detergent, and TSP.

I bought big boxes of those from Amazon a couple of years ago, spending about $30.

I now have a lifetime supply of homemade PBW.

The thing that is important is to get the oxiclean free, with no fragrance. It's actually hard to find, but you can find it on Amazon. I have a friend who sells a very good version of oxiclean free. I don't have that link handy right now, but even with shipping it's cheaper than buying oxiclean on Amazon.

PBW has a couple of things pure oxiclean doesn't- like the detergent part and a chelating agent. I have hard water, and the chelator really makes a big difference. With 100% oxiclean, my stainless has a carbonate film on it and my carboys get a film as well, and it's impossible to rinse off. With PBW, or the homemade version of it, I don't get that film and it rinses right off.

To repassivate stainless steel, I use Acid #5 from Five Star. It also works well in really cleaning your gear. A typical clean in breweriess is to do an alkaline wash (PBW) and burst rinse, followed by an acid wash (Acid #5) and burst rinse.
 

NeverDie

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Based on a recommendation from another forum member, I've been using this stuff: https://www.kegconnection.com/brew-clean-choose-your-size/
which claims to be very friendly to stainless steel and also has Sodium Carbonate Peroxyhydrate in it as an oxidizer. It does the business, but I wouldn't call it inexpensive. It positions itself as a non-caustic alternative to PBW. It says it helps to protect metal from corrosion, so maybe it has a repassivator in it.

This thread has been informative, as I had never really dwelled on the actual breakdown of what goes into a proper cleanser before. Maybe we could compile an open source formulation for one together, so that it's peer reviewed and so forth, and post it on a sticky. Call it the homebrewtalk cleanser/sanitizer all-in-one or something like that. It seems like we might have enough of a braintrust that could maybe actually do it. Or, to be more conservative, just call it a cleanser. I guess the debate might get wild over that.

It's rather striking, given all the very strong pushback on this thread, that one of the local homebrew supply stores has a youtube video promoting what they claim to be various oxygen based sanitizers:


He doesn't appear to be selling it as a cleanser even, but just purely as a sanitizer. Anyhow, that's curious. I wonder what he's selling as cleansers then, because he does appear to break that out as a separate step. His video was posted in 2008, so maybe there has been a shift of opinion or redefinition as to the proper role for these products over just the last decade? In my reading I've seen some vague alllusions that such a shift may have happened, perhaps driven by FDA, though I'm not sure about that.
 
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Yooper

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I was a winemaker long before brewing, and One-step is sold as a cleaner/sanitizer in winemaking shops, or at least was back then.

My understanding is that it actually IS a sanitizer, but cannot be labeled as such without some sort of FDA labeling requirements. I believe One-step and oxiclean are very similar if not identical in formulation.
 

beerlover77

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We have a (very very long) thread on here about making your own PBW. It uses oxiclean, but also a couple of other ingredients- Seventh Generation Dish Detergent, and TSP.

I bought big boxes of those from Amazon a couple of years ago, spending about $30.

I now have a lifetime supply of homemade PBW.

The thing that is important is to get the oxiclean free, with no fragrance. It's actually hard to find, but you can find it on Amazon. I have a friend who sells a very good version of oxiclean free. I don't have that link handy right now, but even with shipping it's cheaper than buying oxiclean on Amazon.

PBW has a couple of things pure oxiclean doesn't- like the detergent part and a chelating agent. I have hard water, and the chelator really makes a big difference. With 100% oxiclean, my stainless has a carbonate film on it and my carboys get a film as well, and it's impossible to rinse off. With PBW, or the homemade version of it, I don't get that film and it rinses right off.

To repassivate stainless steel, I use Acid #5 from Five Star. It also works well in really cleaning your gear. A typical clean in breweriess is to do an alkaline wash (PBW) and burst rinse, followed by an acid wash (Acid #5) and burst rinse.

You can find oxyclean free at Walmart... At least in Canada
 

S-Met

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I don’t use glass FVs. Goes without saying not to pour boiling water onto anything glass (except Pyrex).
:off:
I've seen pyrex shatter from extreme temperature fluctuations. Technically it was oven to granite countertop so the temperature change was more like 350°f. Pyrex shatters, but doesn't shard like regular glass. (BIL) will never do that again.
 
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JONNYROTTEN

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But taunting moderators who don't allow inane posts to clutter up the forum, after getting some robust PMs about this thread, is not going to be allowed.
You do realize that when moderators openly taunt members...unprovoked...on this very thread, it makes it difficult to keep things civil. People that live in glass houses.....This is not a dig on the staff....but it is fact and should be noted along side members being corrected for their posts
 
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Bilsch

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Based on a recommendation from another forum member, I've been using this stuff: https://www.kegconnection.com/brew-clean-choose-your-size/
which claims to be very friendly to stainless steel and also has Sodium Carbonate Peroxyhydrate in it as an oxidizer. It does the business, but I wouldn't call it inexpensive. It positions itself as a non-caustic alternative to PBW. It says it helps to protect metal from corrosion, so maybe it has a repassivator in it.
.
That is interesting they say this cleaner is a non-caustic alternative to PBW since it contains pretty much the same ingredients.

Passivation chemicals are acids and not basic like this cleaner is. It definitely won't do that.
 
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NeverDie

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You do realize that when moderators openly taught members...unprovoked...on this very thread, it makes it difficult to keep things civil. People that live in glass houses.....This is not a dig on the staff....but it is fact and should be noted along side members being corrected for their posts
Dude, you're going to derail your own thread! Let's stay focused on your OP and let the past rest in peace.
 

SoCal-Doug

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I now have a lifetime supply of homemade PBW
Would love to have yoopers recipe so I don't have to read through 4000 incorrect recipes :)

I cringe when I have to buy PBW. Fortunately, I was recently judging a competition and the organizers gave all the judges some PBW and starsan as a thank you gift. But i'm almost out again.
 

Druman07

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I was a winemaker long before brewing, and One-step is sold as a cleaner/sanitizer in winemaking shops, or at least was back then.

My understanding is that it actually IS a sanitizer, but cannot be labeled as such without some sort of FDA labeling requirements. I believe One-step and oxiclean are very similar if not identical in formulation.
That has been my cleaner from day 2. 34 batches later, I feel pretty confident in the results, and it is no rinse. This was a very interesting thread, emotions were a little high at times, but I learned alot from the discussion.
 

kh54s10

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Somewhat off topic but following the discussion of alternatives. One Step came included in my equipment kit in June 2011. It was iirc, a 4 ounce jar. I quit using it when I read a thread here on HBT and the consensus was that it did neither cleaning or sanitizing well. I then started using oxyclean or the generics for cleaning and Starsan for sanitizing. 7+ years later I still have half that jar - somewhere.

I will continue to use both until I have been convinced that Oxyclean alone can do the job. So far I am not.
 
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JONNYROTTEN

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Somewhat off topic but following the discussion of alternatives. One Step came included in my equipment kit in June 2011. It was iirc, a 4 ounce jar. I quit using it when I read a thread here on HBT and the consensus was that it did neither cleaning or sanitizing well. I then started using oxyclean or the generics for cleaning and Starsan for sanitizing. 7+ years later I still have half that jar - somewhere.

I will continue to use both until I have been convinced that Oxyclean alone can do the job. So far I am not.
I have one of those under the cabinet from ages ago. I probably read the same thread and was scared to use it. Now it seems its actually both but not labeled as such. I should have used it long ago.
 
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JONNYROTTEN

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I will continue to use both until I have been convinced that Oxyclean alone can do the job. So far I am not.
Out of curiosity, I have a bucket that had an infected batch in for months before I dumped it....I then threw it outside without cleaning and it and after months collecting rain water it had Millions of mosquitoes in it with even more larvae enough to make you sick lookin at it. Its been sitting like that for years to the point leaves are decomposing in it.

I never had a single desire to ever use it for brewing again and was going to dedicate it to yard use..........If I, under the veil of science washed out the leaves and dirt and dead mosquitoes and used NOTHING but Oxiclean to clean it...and...turned out a good beer in the name of science WITHOUT infections of any kind would that convince you? West nile would be my concern...not lookin to die over a beer test

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wiggybrewer

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Out of curiosity, I have a bucket that had an infected batch in for months before I dumped it....I then threw it outside without cleaning and it and after months collecting rain water it had Millions of mosquitoes in it with even more larvae enough to make you sick lookin at it. Its been sitting like that for years to the point leaves are decomposing in it.

I never had a single desire to ever use it for brewing again and was going to dedicate it to yard use..........If I, under the veil of science washed out the leaves and dirt and dead mosquitoes and used NOTHING but Oxiclean to clean it...and...turned out a good beer in the name of science WITHOUT infections of any kind would that convince you? West nile would be my concern...not lookin to die over a beer test

View attachment 612041 View attachment 612042
And to think everyone who uses tap water for topoff and no infections. Hhmm.
 
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JONNYROTTEN

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And to think everyone who uses tap water for topoff and no infections. Hhmm.
Exactly...I'm one of those people that actually believes the Gov't is NOT trying to kill me and the tap water most of us brewers use is plenty safe...If me and my family are willing to drink it unfiltered and I'm still alive good chance Its safe enough to rinse out a bucket I'm makin beer in
 

wiggybrewer

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Exactly...I'm one of those people that actually believes the Gov't is NOT trying to kill me and the tap water most of us brewers use is plenty safe...If me and my family are willing to drink it unfiltered and I'm still alive good chance Its safe enough to rinse out a bucket I'm makin beer in
Plus a healthy pitch rate.
 

NeverDie

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I hate to even bring it up, but no one has yet talked about it: is there possibly an issue as to whether oxiclean is "food grade" or not? i.e. in principle it would work, but since it's meant for laundry, it maybe isn't made to the same standards (low contaminants) that something that's manufactured for touching food should meet. I suppose if it's being rinsed off, though, that's admittedly less of a concern than if it weren't being rinsed off. In that case, would there be any basis for concern remaining? I'm no toxicologist, so I defer to those who know more about this kind of thing than me.
 

NeverDie

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Out of curiosity, I have a bucket that had an infected batch in for months before I dumped it....I then threw it outside without cleaning and it and after months collecting rain water it had Millions of mosquitoes in it with even more larvae enough to make you sick lookin at it. Its been sitting like that for years to the point leaves are decomposing in it.

I never had a single desire to ever use it for brewing again and was going to dedicate it to yard use..........If I, under the veil of science washed out the leaves and dirt and dead mosquitoes and used NOTHING but Oxiclean to clean it...and...turned out a good beer in the name of science WITHOUT infections of any kind would that convince you? West nile would be my concern...not lookin to die over a beer test
Clearly the burden of proof here is impossibly high unless you were to make a career out of proving it. However, that bucket looks vile enough that it would make for one hell of a good anecdote. So... I dare you.

At least for me, just knowing that in 2008 these types of products were being actively sold and promoted by a seemingly reputable Austin homebrew shop as sanitizers, not even cleaners, but as sanitizers, makes me think you'd probably win the dare. And since you're obviously going to use Oxiclean to make beer regardless of what anyone might say... I double dare you.

Just kidding! Be safe.
 
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lump42

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The thing that is important is to get the oxiclean free, with no fragrance. It's actually hard to find, but you can find it on Amazon. I have a friend who sells a very good version of oxiclean free. I don't have that link handy right now, but even with shipping it's cheaper than buying oxiclean on Amazon.
Walmart and Target both carry it too, but they have it listed as Oxyclean Versatile on their website and is half price of Amazon. They have it around $7-8 for a 3 lbs tub. We go through quite a bit of it with a 2-year old.
 

lump42

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I appreciate JonnyRotten's post as it made me think and consider things I had not previously considered. Thank you!
I agree. JonnyRotten obviously isn't going to change everyone's mind, don't believe that was the intent. The important thing in the OP post is that proper cleaning is more important than sanitizing. If it isn't clean you can't sanitize. If you clean it well enough, sanitizing is just an extra precaution. I've gotten lax with my cleaning, I'm planning on stepping it up. Thanks!
 

Blazinlow86

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You do realize that when moderators openly taunt members...unprovoked...on this very thread, it makes it difficult to keep things civil. People that live in glass houses.....This is not a dig on the staff....but it is fact and should be noted along side members being corrected for their posts
And we're back.... Lol
 

NeverDie

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My local Walmart carries Oxiclean Free. $7.96 for 3 pounds of it.
 
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You do realize that when moderators openly taunt members...unprovoked...on this very thread, it makes it difficult to keep things civil. People that live in glass houses.....This is not a dig on the staff....but it is fact and should be noted along side members being corrected for their posts
Which post are you referring to? Post #?
 
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