Correlation does not equal causation. Just sayin'...
Oxiclean...two years and no infections
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hopjuice_71
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Wow, from the perspective of a microbiologist, this is one of the stranger threads I have read in a while. Yeah, Oxiclean will definitely clean and sanitize your stuff. Coincidentally, dish soap, hand soap, and Mr Clean (etc etc), are also a really good sanitizers. All need to be rinsed though.. ..thoroughly. And if you rinse with water having a high bacterial load, bad things MAY happen. Clean water, though, likely all will be well. It is not really rocket science, and I'm surprised there is such a great debate. JohnnyR seems to have clean water, which is awesome. I have pretty clean water and could MAYBE get away with rinsing with it. However, ALL water has some level of bacteria in it. It is just that pathogens must be below detectable levels. It doesn't mean that there are not microbes in there that MAY gain a foothold in fresh wort. Sanitizing with a no-rinse sanitizer, like star-san, is simply cheap insurance and good advice.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/krausen-or-something-else.628013/
It could happen to you.
It could happen to you.
Thanks for sharing your experience with oxyclean. It also does a great job removing the smells from laundry that has sat too long in the washer.
That is really the takeaway. Oxyclean may function as an antibacterial, but you are relying on your final rinse to be free of bacteria and virii. This is why extract brewers and partial mashers typically can get away with topping up.
Personally, I try to brew as if I was bound by food service ordinances.
Soulshine2
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oxi-clean is not a sanitizer . Star San is . neither are disinfectants.I was cleaning out my kegerator and had no bleach so I looked up using Oxiclean to kill mold...its been sitting awhile. I came across the link below
Theres been debate since day one whether or not Oxiclean is a sanitizer. I'm not a scientist but what I do know is I haven't used Star San or any other product to clean my entire setup(except beer lines) in over 2 years and havent gotten a single infection. And thats everything, nasty fermenters, old kegs, auto siphon, airlocks...everything.
THerefore I can say with certainty theres nothing else you need to clean/sanitize/disinfect, whatever you want to call it,your entire setup.
Use it with confidence
Heres a link that breaks it down a bit....disregard the diapers unless thats your thing
https://parentingpatch.com/oxygen-bleach-disinfect-cloth-diapers/
Soulshine2
Well-Known Member
well said and i agree with your method...Oxi -clean the heavy stuff and a star san rinse.I agree that a lot of folks seem to think there is only one way to do things which is bogus.
I don't think anyone should be telling you that you HAVE to use certain methods as there are different ways to accomplish everything safely and effectively.
Officially Oxyclean is considered a cleaner and Starsan a sanatizer. Oxy is great for soaking your equipment to clean things and get the gunk off (and im sure it limits microbes to safe levels as well).
The problem lies when a person doesn't have access to sanitary water for rinsing, in this case boiled water or a no-rinse sanitizer should be used. I use Star San anyways as the final rinse because it has worked for me with no infections so farand I won't take any chances.
If your water is safe to rinse with then that is great and Oxy may very well be the only product you will need.
I will say this.. commercial breweries use lots and lots of sanitizer, my local microbrewery uses peroxide solution (I think) and lots of very hot water to wash things down with.
505-Brewer
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Chlorine dioxide is also a great no rinse sanitizer.
Hey man if it works for you don’t change it. I used one step for a year w no issues. Ive used bleach in ancient history and the only issues I had there was not rinsing it enough.
Most municipal water is quite clean and if your pitching a healthy culture you’ll out compete any bugs. Only issue i see you might have could be with shelf life. Curious are you bottle conditioning or kegging your beers? If your bottle conditioning and can keep them a long time without issue that would suggest any bug count is very low indeed.
Its amazing people could even ever make beer before star san
LMAO.
This is a fun thread.
Hey man if it works for you don’t change it. I used one step for a year w no issues. Ive used bleach in ancient history and the only issues I had there was not rinsing it enough.
Most municipal water is quite clean and if your pitching a healthy culture you’ll out compete any bugs. Only issue i see you might have could be with shelf life. Curious are you bottle conditioning or kegging your beers? If your bottle conditioning and can keep them a long time without issue that would suggest any bug count is very low indeed.
Its amazing people could even ever make beer before star san
LMAO.
This is a fun thread.
I want to thank the OP for his post, because at least it does add new information. It has made me interested in trying one-step, which seems to work on the same principle, but is a no rinse. I mean, can we all agree that having a cleanser that might *also* help sanitize (because of the peroxide) is a good bonus if you don't wash it off? And if you want to do Star San or some other sanitizer afterward, then it's like a double hit of sanitizing from two different angles. i.e. possibly more thorough with no extra work.
Soulshine2
Well-Known Member
never put boiling water in a glass carboy.You’re ALL wrong
I just use PAA (peracetic acid) - nothing will survive a fight with that stuff.
For soiling I use PBW, then rinse with boiling water.
Before brewing, it’s a rinse with PAA.
My takeaway from this thread, it is likely better to clean well with a cleaner sanitizer and rinse with clean tap water, vs perhaps not cleaning as well and using a no rinse sanitizer such as star san? I think it is possible that sometimes people rely on power of Starsan and might neglect the cleaning chore.
If you are the type that actually cleans very well, and uses a no rinse sanitizer, well then you have surely done your due diligence and are likely more thorough than some here.
For all those that may shortcut the cleaning process occasionally, perhaps Johnny’s point is of value.
I’m guilty of sometimes just rinsing kegs well, sanitizing w/ star San and refilling, with a more thorough cleaning occasionally. In reading kegging
threads on HBT, I’m certainly not the only one shortcutting when it comes to religiously cleaning kegs every fill.
Perhaps in this scenario, an oxi clean soak and tap water rinse would be more effective than a rinse w water and star San treatment.
It really comes down to the nasty bugs in your tap water, and your comfort level in eliminating a step in the process.
If your gonna choose one, clean well or sanitize well....your probably better off cleaning well.
If you are the type that actually cleans very well, and uses a no rinse sanitizer, well then you have surely done your due diligence and are likely more thorough than some here.
For all those that may shortcut the cleaning process occasionally, perhaps Johnny’s point is of value.
I’m guilty of sometimes just rinsing kegs well, sanitizing w/ star San and refilling, with a more thorough cleaning occasionally. In reading kegging
threads on HBT, I’m certainly not the only one shortcutting when it comes to religiously cleaning kegs every fill.
Perhaps in this scenario, an oxi clean soak and tap water rinse would be more effective than a rinse w water and star San treatment.
It really comes down to the nasty bugs in your tap water, and your comfort level in eliminating a step in the process.
If your gonna choose one, clean well or sanitize well....your probably better off cleaning well.
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I was cleaning out my kegerator and had no bleach so I looked up using Oxiclean to kill mold...its been sitting awhile. I came across the link below
Theres been debate since day one whether or not Oxiclean is a sanitizer. I'm not a scientist but what I do know is I haven't used Star San or any other product to clean my entire setup(except beer lines) in over 2 years and havent gotten a single infection. And thats everything, nasty fermenters, old kegs, auto siphon, airlocks...everything.
THerefore I can say with certainty theres nothing else you need to clean/sanitize/disinfect, whatever you want to call it,your entire setup.
Use it with confidence
Heres a link that breaks it down a bit....disregard the diapers unless thats your thing
https://parentingpatch.com/oxygen-bleach-disinfect-cloth-diapers/
I'm a scientist. One of the things good scientists know is that there are always multiple possible explanations for a result, and our job as scientists is to eliminate those explanations that aren't responsible for a result, leaving the one that is.
"THerefore I can say with certainty theres nothing else you need to clean/sanitize/disinfect"
I think that's a tremendous disservice to new brewers including anyone looking for different ways to clean. Here's why:
There are many reasons why it appears to work for you. As a scientist, let me list a number of them:
1. You do get occasional infections, you just aren't aware of it or can't taste the result. Sure this isn't the case? How do you know? Maybe they're mild infections and you're confusing them with normal krausen.
2. Your specific situation is different than others', i.e., your setup is different, your equipment is different. Would you be able to say--with certainty--that this works in all setups, all circumstances, at all times? With certainty? No, you cannot, because you haven't tested it in all those different setups.
3. How about the temperature of the water used? How much contact time? Recirculating or not? Does it work the same regardless?
4. You may be leaving behind a film that is producing off-flavors, but you may or may not be able to detect them. That isn't the same as an infection, which is the only claim you're making, but it's a flaw that would show the method to be poor. Further, can you guarantee that others won't be able to perceive any off-flavors resulting from this approach? No.
5. This is a damning criticism: I've never read of any professional brewery using your "guaranteed" method as a cleaning process. One has to wonder why. If it's so good--so guaranteed--you'd think this would have swept the brewing industry at some point. Sounds a lot easier. So why hasn't it become standard operating procedure?
I'm all for offering up ideas, and certainly anyone who wants to try this, go right ahead. But when you offer a "guarantee" when you really have no idea whether it does universally work, I'm afraid you do a disservice to those who are new at this and presume you really do know enough to offer such a "guarantee."
You don't.
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
Point taken. A few things. First its been said the only thing guaranteed in this world is death and taxes....yet the word gets used quite a bit in the English language....so take it for what its worth. Two years infection free is enough of a guarantee for me. To say a batch is possibly infected and I cant pick up on it and somebody else can is a stretch...a big one. I've been doing this long enough to know what infected off taste is.
Secondly as far as damning criticism I've read numerous times on this site from people working at microbreweries that us homebrewers put WAY more emphasis on sanitation then they do. I've read one person just washes out there equipment with a hose and start all over again using NO sanitation. Thats not my words thats their words. The response was: "Its good practice for our new brewers to use proper sanitation practices"....So quite possibly theres way to much emphasis on sanitation to begin with and its "just good practice"
As far as Massive breweries like BMC are they cleaning their monstrous equipment with Star San? I have no idea. I would bet not.
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Uh, I'm not sure what pro brewer you were talking to, but I know some and they all use peracetic acid, and a lot of it. It's the same kind of sanatizer as starsan (acid). I'd guess that it's used at BMC breweries.
Woops. Peracetic acid is actually a strong biological oxidizer, similar to oxyclean (sodium percarbonate). I stand corrected (by me
).JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
Woops. Peracetic acid is actually a strong biological oxidizer, similar to oxyclean (sodium percarbonate). I stand corrected (by me
It sounds like your pro brewers are essentially using Oxiclean....So there ya go. Pretty much sums up the whole thread. Its works for me for years and works for Pro brewers so I dont see where the argument comes from
It works on the homebrew level proven by me
It works on the pro level proven by you
And you'd assume it works on the The most massive breweries on the planet....sounds pretty conclusive....it works
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There are some rubbish pros out there so it wouldn't surprise me.
Worthwhile pros are beyond fastidious. Once peracitic is cycled everything stays under pressure or otherwise sealed. Never even exposed to air (or at minimum positive CO2 flow for things like dry hopping). On the hot side, hit it with a hose and you're fine. Cold side is another world. If I saw a brewer just hose out a fermenter, that's it, they'd be fired on the spot.
Pros CIP with caustic to clean and peracetic acid to sanitize.
Loose parts, clamps, gaskets get soaking cleans (usually caustic but PBW or oxy would work and safer, but caustic is much easier to rinse), and when being used soaked in sanitizer and ferrules hit with it before connections. Some pros use StarSan here. I prefer iodophor. Peracitic acid works too. And then I like a spray bottle of 70% isopropyl immediately before connecting parts together.
Well, I'm sure there are all sorts of different practices out there. All I'm saying is that if the approach you're using was demonstrably better, wouldn't they all be using it? And yes, to be fair, there's a certain amount of inertia in what people do and how receptive they are to change, but if it sped things up and cost less, I think they'd be all over it. It makes me wonder why not, and possibly it's simply related to the cost of dumping very large batches.
I've read of breweries using an acid wash that's much more aggressive than Star-San as we use it. So there are differences. I think I've read that the big boys do something like that. I'd think the bigger the batch, the more one would want to ensure things went right, given the money at risk. But who knows?
The beauty of home brewing is that people can do what they want. Your approach appears to work for you, and if you're happy with it, no reason to change.
I think, also, we need to be careful in looking at any one instance of something, the person saying that it's been fine for them, and assuming that it's actually working. It's like people saying that one doesn't need to concern oneself with water, because they don't do anything to it and it works fine.
Well, maybe. Maybe they happen to have perfect water for the styles they're brewing. Maybe their beer is actually not that good, but they don't know it (see related note below). We have to take everything we read online with a large grain of salt.
[related note: I'm a member of a homebrew group. People bring beer all the time that's....bad. We have competitions, and I judge for them from time to time. I can't believe people would ever enter some of that stuff. I wonder what's wrong with their water, ferm temp control, mash, whatever--and why they can't tell something's wrong. I don't look much to those people for ideas related to brewing better beer.
]
Peracetic acid is no-rinse. Oxyclean is not. They are not the same, they just have a similar kill agent. Anything that exposed to water on the pro level (unless heat pasteurizing with it) would be getting resanitized.
(Responsible) pros would *never* sani with oxyclean.
I'm calling this a troll thread.
This brings up the question of how professional breweries use Peracetic Acid. I bet it is not to soak there equipment with one scoop in 5 gallons of water then rinse with tap water as homebrewers would do.
Go back and read all the responses and look at the likes given. You are getting almost no agreement.
It may work in your brewery conditions, but as you say you are not a scientist so your argument that others can skip sanitation, in their brewery conditions, because you have not had any infections (that you detected) is invalid.
Go back and read all the responses and look at the likes given. You are getting almost no agreement.
It may work in your brewery conditions, but as you say you are not a scientist so your argument that others can skip sanitation, in their brewery conditions, because you have not had any infections (that you detected) is invalid.
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
Why dont you give it a try it....Then they'll be 2 people...If we can three people it will be a party
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Bilsch
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Peracetic acid is essentially acetic acid and hydrogen peroxide. It is a powerful oxidizer and while it is considered no rinse on things like surfaces that can dry off, I seriously doubt any brewer would leave residues of this stuff inside his tanks or piping. Unless he liked pre oxidized beer. Generally large breweries first do a caustic (sodium hydroxide) then rinse and follow that with an acid, usually phosphoric solution by itself or with a small amount of nitric acid. Then they follow that up with a good rinse.
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A good rinse of what?
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
Someone else mentioned that Peracetic acid is similar to Oxiclean without the rinse.I believe your saying in layman terms that Oxiclean works to kill the bugs which is the most important thing and until now has been disputed ...followed up by a good rinse
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Bilsch
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Someone else is wrong.
An amount of PAA forms when acetic acid and hydrogen peroxide are mixed but this reaction is not complete and the mixture sold as the sanitizer has all three things in there. This mixture is very acidic and a powerful oxidizer. It also smells terrible.
Conversely sodium percarbonate is and adduct of hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate. Upon dissolving the percarbonate in water you get H2O2 and sodium carbonate. This mixture is basic (high pH) and also an oxidizer (when the H2O2 decomposes) but not nearly as strong as PAA.
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GoeHaarden
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Just out of curiosity, and a fear of having my post deleted as a form of selective censorship, I'll stay on topic.
Anybody have poor results with Oxi-clean as a cleaner?? Rinsing/no-rinsing/sanitizing aside as I'd still use Star-Sans. I've always used PBW, and can make it last but I found a commercial size (30lbs) of Oxi-clean for $45 on Amazon. I don't think I'll ever have to buy that stuff again if I bought 30lbs.
@JONNYROTTEN you're right. Gutter level...
Anybody have poor results with Oxi-clean as a cleaner?? Rinsing/no-rinsing/sanitizing aside as I'd still use Star-Sans. I've always used PBW, and can make it last but I found a commercial size (30lbs) of Oxi-clean for $45 on Amazon. I don't think I'll ever have to buy that stuff again if I bought 30lbs.
@JONNYROTTEN you're right. Gutter level...
As I and several others have said. You have no scientific controls here. You have one site, one source of water, one... Will your procedure hold up with water in someone else's brewery? Will it hold true for someone else's brewing procedure? Will Joe beginner have the same results?
You don't know. You are making the assumption based on only the fact that you haven't gotten an infection in 2 years... That is hardly proof.
I'd like to know the same thing.
By the way, you'd probably want to use Oxi-clean Free, instead of plain Oxi-clean, as explained here: http://cryptobrewology.com/home-brewing-tips/the-scoop-on-powdered-oxygen-based-cleansers/
It also says: "The instructions on products like B-Brite, Oxygen Brewery Wash, and Oxi-Clean Free recommend rinsing after use. The reason for rinsing is that a residue of calcium carbonate is left behind by the cleaning process." Well, gee, if that's the only residue left behind, it hardly seems like a deal breaker to not rinse. That's just the predominant mineral found in hard water, isn't it? If you let it dry on, then it would create a difficult to remove calciuim deposit, but if you went on to filling with your wort/must right away (or steralizing with Star San or whatever for extra protection), wouldn't it just become a part of that and be quite unnoticeable?
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GoeHaarden
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I had no idea there were so many varieties of this stuff. I guess the versatile has like a laundry scent, but apparently there is a versatile free as well with no scents. Anyone buy the free in bulk? If so, where?
Thanks for posting this info. Most helpful!
@JONNYROTTEN and everyone else, i ask you to look up the action in which oxiclean does its thing before jumping to conclusions of what is or is not "safe."
Sodium Percarbonate is the main ingredient in oxiclean. When mixed with water, it disassociates into hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate. Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidizer which is used as a disinfectant. It generally requires a contact time of 10min to disinfectant.
Now that we can consider sodium percabonate a disinfectant, we need to go back and evaluate the difference between a disinfectant and a sanitizer. Sanitizers kill 99.999% quickly, but disinfectants kill 100% slowly.
Disinfectant like oxi needs to be rinsed. So does bleach, so what, big deal, who cares. Unless you are using septic wate to rinse, you have nothing to be concerned about. Dump and Fill a plastic water bottle with your tap water and cap it. Leave it for a month. Anything grow? No, your fine to proceed.
But, but, what if i accidentally introduced germs when i used my garden hose from my yard to fill/rinse my container? Then it doesn't matter how aseptic your cleaning regime may be, you just contaminated after cleaning. Star-san or not you dun screwed the pooch in this.
Remember though, you don't need to be "sterile," you only need to create an environment where your chosen infection (yeast) can out compete the other microbes. Many of the peeps out here are over-complicating and over-thinking the process. Not saying that you are wrong, but pointing out that many of us shoot the horse after its already dead, just to be sure.
And for the record, I beat dead horses in my fermenting practices. The only infections I've had are from wild/open fermentations of wild vegetable greens where they are salt rinsed then left to ferment in their own brine. This was from incomplete submerging of the material and aerobic microbes began to reproduce. Never in a beer, wine or cider.
Sodium Percarbonate is the main ingredient in oxiclean. When mixed with water, it disassociates into hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate. Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidizer which is used as a disinfectant. It generally requires a contact time of 10min to disinfectant.
Now that we can consider sodium percabonate a disinfectant, we need to go back and evaluate the difference between a disinfectant and a sanitizer. Sanitizers kill 99.999% quickly, but disinfectants kill 100% slowly.
Disinfectant like oxi needs to be rinsed. So does bleach, so what, big deal, who cares. Unless you are using septic wate to rinse, you have nothing to be concerned about. Dump and Fill a plastic water bottle with your tap water and cap it. Leave it for a month. Anything grow? No, your fine to proceed.
But, but, what if i accidentally introduced germs when i used my garden hose from my yard to fill/rinse my container? Then it doesn't matter how aseptic your cleaning regime may be, you just contaminated after cleaning. Star-san or not you dun screwed the pooch in this.
Remember though, you don't need to be "sterile," you only need to create an environment where your chosen infection (yeast) can out compete the other microbes. Many of the peeps out here are over-complicating and over-thinking the process. Not saying that you are wrong, but pointing out that many of us shoot the horse after its already dead, just to be sure.
And for the record, I beat dead horses in my fermenting practices. The only infections I've had are from wild/open fermentations of wild vegetable greens where they are salt rinsed then left to ferment in their own brine. This was from incomplete submerging of the material and aerobic microbes began to reproduce. Never in a beer, wine or cider.
JONNYROTTEN
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Some how...some way...my response was deleted...as was my thank you....Ill take a picture of this post so when we agree and are cordial theres proof we can actually get along without continuous arguing..Buy the Oxiclean and use it...if it fails you post the reason why. Like I said from post #1 use it with confidence....I could not be more disappointed that my "thanks brother" response was deleted....is that were we're at...no friendliness allowed? WE cant say "thanks brother" without it being deleted? Or did I miss something?
OK, OK, OK. I've read the complete thread and my take away is use Oxiclean instead of PBW. Both do the same cleaning. Oxiclean is much less expensive.
From what I understand the "oxidizing" of PAA is different than oxidation of beer (as in, oxygen can oxidize but not all oxidation reactions are from oxygen, oxidation/redox reactions are electron exchange). While it produces oxygen, it's like the difference in a chloride ion from dissociating salt in water vs chlorine gas. Atomic oxygen vs free (molecular) oxygen.
It isn't really an oxidation risk.
I'm not a chemist so that's my rudimentary understanding.
Obviously you wanna drain it out, but leaving piping packed with PAA and pushing with beer (similarly to how one would liquid purge a keg) is common. And it doesn't raise DO numbers to any point of concern, if it raises them at all.
Caustic. Rinse. Nitric. Rinse. PAA. Don't rinse. The first two are cleaning. In many cases the nitric is periodic (fermenters). In some cases the caustic could be periodic (pressure cleaning a brite). But always no-rinse PAA before beer goes in.
It forms an equilibrium. Acetic plus peroxide in will combine to form PAA. Which will simultaneously break down into peroxide and acetic acid. You'll reach a point of equilibrium where all three are present. I'm not sure of the specifics. Again, not a chemist.
From what I understand you can mix PAA at home, although not as effectively as industrial preparations.
Our forum rules allow posting in the technical forums (and this is a technical forum) to contain informative, helpful, or interesting information. That way, people not in on the chatter can follow the thread and maybe learn something, or maybe disagree with something. Either way, it's not inane chatter that should be posted.
If you have a remark on the verge of inane, at least couch it in an informative post first.
For example:
A mash pH of 5.3-5.5 is considered optimum for many reasons, including avoiding harshness of hops.
Oh, and I hate Wheaties.
I could let that go. But taunting moderators who don't allow inane posts to clutter up the forum, after getting some robust PMs about this thread, is not going to be allowed. Either stay on topic and make it a thread that is something people want to read, or don't complain when your inane twittering attempt at humor is deleted.
Believe it or not, most of the mod team have better things to do than police people who can't appreciate the volunteer effort involved of keeping our rules intact.
If you have a remark on the verge of inane, at least couch it in an informative post first.
For example:
A mash pH of 5.3-5.5 is considered optimum for many reasons, including avoiding harshness of hops.
Oh, and I hate Wheaties.
I could let that go. But taunting moderators who don't allow inane posts to clutter up the forum, after getting some robust PMs about this thread, is not going to be allowed. Either stay on topic and make it a thread that is something people want to read, or don't complain when your inane twittering attempt at humor is deleted.
Believe it or not, most of the mod team have better things to do than police people who can't appreciate the volunteer effort involved of keeping our rules intact.
So, is your conclusion that the OP probably has merit to it?
If so, it would be helpful if one of the chemists here could confirm what the proper amount to use would be. We wouldn't want just some peroxide, we'd want to be sure we have enough of it, along with adequate contact time as you suggest.
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
Thanks Yooper...as the OP all I wanted was to post my results after a two year test of a process proven to to work....by me
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
This....Unless your rinsing from your cesspool..Oxi did the real work and your good to go
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