Oxiclean...two years and no infections

[kh54s10]

This brings up the question of how professional breweries use Peracetic Acid. I bet it is not to soak there equipment with one scoop in 5 gallons of water then rinse with tap water as homebrewers would do.

Go back and read all the responses and look at the likes given. You are getting almost no agreement.

It may work in your brewery conditions, but as you say you are not a scientist so your argument that others can skip sanitation, in their brewery conditions, because you have not had any infections (that you detected) is invalid.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I think, also, we need to be careful in looking at any one instance of something, the person saying that it's been fine for them, and assuming that it's actually working.
]

Why dont you give it a try it....Then they'll be 2 people...If we can three people it will be a party

 

[NeverDie]

 

[Bilsch]

Peracetic acid is essentially acetic acid and hydrogen peroxide. It is a powerful oxidizer and while it is considered no rinse on things like surfaces that can dry off, I seriously doubt any brewer would leave residues of this stuff inside his tanks or piping. Unless he liked pre oxidized beer. Generally large breweries first do a caustic (sodium hydroxide) then rinse and follow that with an acid, usually phosphoric solution by itself or with a small amount of nitric acid. Then they follow that up with a good rinse.

 

[NeverDie]

Peracetic acid is essentially acetic acid and hydrogen peroxide. It is a powerful oxidizer and while it is considered no rinse on things like surfaces that can dry off, I seriously doubt any brewer would leave residues of this stuff inside his tanks or piping. Unless he liked pre oxidized beer. Generally large breweries first do a caustic (sodium hydroxide) then rinse and follow that with an acid, usually phosphoric solution by itself with a small amount of nitric acid. Then they follow that up with a good rinse.

A good rinse of what?

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Peracetic acid is essentially acetic acid and hydrogen peroxide. It is a powerful oxidizer and while it is considered no rinse on things like surfaces that can dry off, I seriously doubt any brewer would leave residues of this stuff inside his tanks or piping. Unless he liked pre oxidized beer. Generally large breweries first do a caustic (sodium hydroxide) then rinse and follow that with an acid, usually phosphoric solution by itself with a small amount of nitric acid. Then they follow that up with a good rinse.

Someone else mentioned that Peracetic acid is similar to Oxiclean without the rinse.I believe your saying in layman terms that Oxiclean works to kill the bugs which is the most important thing and until now has been disputed ...followed up by a good rinse

 

[Bilsch]

Someone else mentioned that Peracetic acid is similar to Oxiclean without the rinse.I believe your saying in layman terms that Oxiclean works to kill the bugs which is the most important thing and until now has been disputed ...followed up by a good rinse

Someone else is wrong.
An amount of PAA forms when acetic acid and hydrogen peroxide are mixed but this reaction is not complete and the mixture sold as the sanitizer has all three things in there. This mixture is very acidic and a powerful oxidizer. It also smells terrible.
Conversely sodium percarbonate is and adduct of hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate. Upon dissolving the percarbonate in water you get H2O2 and sodium carbonate. This mixture is basic (high pH) and also an oxidizer (when the H2O2 decomposes) but not nearly as strong as PAA.

 

[GoeHaarden]

Just out of curiosity, and a fear of having my post deleted as a form of selective censorship, I'll stay on topic.

Anybody have poor results with Oxi-clean as a cleaner?? Rinsing/no-rinsing/sanitizing aside as I'd still use Star-Sans. I've always used PBW, and can make it last but I found a commercial size (30lbs) of Oxi-clean for $45 on Amazon. I don't think I'll ever have to buy that stuff again if I bought 30lbs.

@JONNYROTTEN you're right. Gutter level...

 

[kh54s10]

How else would you like me to test it...I used it exclusively for 2 years....If thats not enough I dont what know what to tell ya....I dont own a lab..If I did the site would be called ProBrewTalk not HomeBrewTalk

As I and several others have said. You have no scientific controls here. You have one site, one source of water, one... Will your procedure hold up with water in someone else's brewery? Will it hold true for someone else's brewing procedure? Will Joe beginner have the same results?

You don't know. You are making the assumption based on only the fact that you haven't gotten an infection in 2 years... That is hardly proof.

 

[NeverDie]

Anybody have poor results with Oxi-clean as a cleaner?? Rinsing/no-rinsing/sanitizing aside as I'd still use Star-Sans. I've always used PBW, and can make it last but I found a commercial size (30lbs) of Oxi-clean for $45 on Amazon. I don't think I'll ever have to buy that stuff again if I bought 30lbs.

I'd like to know the same thing.

By the way, you'd probably want to use Oxi-clean Free, instead of plain Oxi-clean, as explained here: http://cryptobrewology.com/home-brewing-tips/the-scoop-on-powdered-oxygen-based-cleansers/

It also says: "The instructions on products like B-Brite, Oxygen Brewery Wash, and Oxi-Clean Free recommend rinsing after use. The reason for rinsing is that a residue of calcium carbonate is left behind by the cleaning process." Well, gee, if that's the only residue left behind, it hardly seems like a deal breaker to not rinse. That's just the predominant mineral found in hard water, isn't it? If you let it dry on, then it would create a difficult to remove calciuim deposit, but if you went on to filling with your wort/must right away (or steralizing with Star San or whatever for extra protection), wouldn't it just become a part of that and be quite unnoticeable?

 

[GoeHaarden]

By the way, you'd probably want to use Oxi-clean Free, instead of plain Oxi-clean

I had no idea there were so many varieties of this stuff. I guess the versatile has like a laundry scent, but apparently there is a versatile free as well with no scents. Anyone buy the free in bulk? If so, where?

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

The base yes basically, but PBW has some additional ingredients. Personally I prefer Oxiclean, not because it's a lot cheaper but because it rinses off much easier than PBW. I find I have to rinse stuff many times to get PBW fully off.


Rev.

Thanks for posting this info. Most helpful!

 

[S-Met]

@JONNYROTTEN and everyone else, i ask you to look up the action in which oxiclean does its thing before jumping to conclusions of what is or is not "safe."
Sodium Percarbonate is the main ingredient in oxiclean. When mixed with water, it disassociates into hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate. Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidizer which is used as a disinfectant. It generally requires a contact time of 10min to disinfectant.

Now that we can consider sodium percabonate a disinfectant, we need to go back and evaluate the difference between a disinfectant and a sanitizer. Sanitizers kill 99.999% quickly, but disinfectants kill 100% slowly.

Disinfectant like oxi needs to be rinsed. So does bleach, so what, big deal, who cares. Unless you are using septic wate to rinse, you have nothing to be concerned about. Dump and Fill a plastic water bottle with your tap water and cap it. Leave it for a month. Anything grow? No, your fine to proceed.

But, but, what if i accidentally introduced germs when i used my garden hose from my yard to fill/rinse my container? Then it doesn't matter how aseptic your cleaning regime may be, you just contaminated after cleaning. Star-san or not you dun screwed the pooch in this.

Remember though, you don't need to be "sterile," you only need to create an environment where your chosen infection (yeast) can out compete the other microbes. Many of the peeps out here are over-complicating and over-thinking the process. Not saying that you are wrong, but pointing out that many of us shoot the horse after its already dead, just to be sure.

And for the record, I beat dead horses in my fermenting practices. The only infections I've had are from wild/open fermentations of wild vegetable greens where they are salt rinsed then left to ferment in their own brine. This was from incomplete submerging of the material and aerobic microbes began to reproduce. Never in a beer, wine or cider.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Just out of curiosity, and a fear of having my post deleted as a form of selective censorship, I'll stay on topic.

Anybody have poor results with Oxi-clean as a cleaner?? Rinsing/no-rinsing/sanitizing aside as I'd still use Star-Sans. I've always used PBW, and can make it last but I found a commercial size (30lbs) of Oxi-clean for $45 on Amazon. I don't think I'll ever have to buy that stuff again if I bought 30lbs.

@JONNYROTTEN you're right. Gutter level...

Some how...some way...my response was deleted...as was my thank you....Ill take a picture of this post so when we agree and are cordial theres proof we can actually get along without continuous arguing..Buy the Oxiclean and use it...if it fails you post the reason why. Like I said from post #1 use it with confidence....I could not be more disappointed that my "thanks brother" response was deleted....is that were we're at...no friendliness allowed? WE cant say "thanks brother" without it being deleted? Or did I miss something?

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

OK, OK, OK. I've read the complete thread and my take away is use Oxiclean instead of PBW. Both do the same cleaning. Oxiclean is much less expensive.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Peracetic acid is essentially acetic acid and hydrogen peroxide. It is a powerful oxidizer and while it is considered no rinse on things like surfaces that can dry off, I seriously doubt any brewer would leave residues of this stuff inside his tanks or piping. Unless he liked pre oxidized beer. Generally large breweries first do a caustic (sodium hydroxide) then rinse and follow that with an acid, usually phosphoric solution by itself with a small amount of nitric acid. Then they follow that up with a good rinse.

From what I understand the "oxidizing" of PAA is different than oxidation of beer (as in, oxygen can oxidize but not all oxidation reactions are from oxygen, oxidation/redox reactions are electron exchange). While it produces oxygen, it's like the difference in a chloride ion from dissociating salt in water vs chlorine gas. Atomic oxygen vs free (molecular) oxygen.

It isn't really an oxidation risk.

I'm not a chemist so that's my rudimentary understanding.

Obviously you wanna drain it out, but leaving piping packed with PAA and pushing with beer (similarly to how one would liquid purge a keg) is common. And it doesn't raise DO numbers to any point of concern, if it raises them at all.

Caustic. Rinse. Nitric. Rinse. PAA. Don't rinse. The first two are cleaning. In many cases the nitric is periodic (fermenters). In some cases the caustic could be periodic (pressure cleaning a brite). But always no-rinse PAA before beer goes in.

Someone else is wrong.
An amount of PAA forms when acetic acid and hydrogen peroxide are mixed but this reaction is not complete and the mixture sold as the sanitizer has all three things in there. This mixture is very acidic and a powerful oxidizer.
Conversely sodium percarbonate is and adduct of hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate. Upon dissolving the percarbonate in water you get H2O2 and sodium carbonate. This mixture is basic (high pH) and also an oxidizer (when the H2O2 decomposes) but not nearly as strong as PAA.

It forms an equilibrium. Acetic plus peroxide in will combine to form PAA. Which will simultaneously break down into peroxide and acetic acid. You'll reach a point of equilibrium where all three are present. I'm not sure of the specifics. Again, not a chemist.

From what I understand you can mix PAA at home, although not as effectively as industrial preparations.

 

[Yooper]

Our forum rules allow posting in the technical forums (and this is a technical forum) to contain informative, helpful, or interesting information. That way, people not in on the chatter can follow the thread and maybe learn something, or maybe disagree with something. Either way, it's not inane chatter that should be posted.

If you have a remark on the verge of inane, at least couch it in an informative post first.

For example:

A mash pH of 5.3-5.5 is considered optimum for many reasons, including avoiding harshness of hops.

Oh, and I hate Wheaties.

I could let that go. But taunting moderators who don't allow inane posts to clutter up the forum, after getting some robust PMs about this thread, is not going to be allowed. Either stay on topic and make it a thread that is something people want to read, or don't complain when your inane twittering attempt at humor is deleted.

Believe it or not, most of the mod team have better things to do than police people who can't appreciate the volunteer effort involved of keeping our rules intact.

 

[NeverDie]

@JONNYROTTEN and everyone else, i ask you to look up the action in which oxiclean does its thing before jumping to conclusions of what is or is not "safe."
Sodium Percarbonate is the main ingredient in oxiclean. When mixed with water, it disassociates into hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate. Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidizer which is used as a disinfectant. It generally requires a contact time of 10min to disinfectant.

Now that we can consider sodium percabonate a disinfectant, we need to go back and evaluate the difference between a disinfectant and a sanitizer. Sanitizers kill 99.999% quickly, but disinfectants kill 100% slowly.

Disinfectant like oxi needs to be rinsed. So does bleach, so what, big deal, who cares. Unless you are using septic wate to rinse, you have nothing to be concerned about. Dump and Fill a plastic water bottle with your tap water and cap it. Leave it for a month. Anything grow? No, your fine to proceed.

But, but, what if i accidentally introduced germs when i used my garden hose from my yard to fill/rinse my container? Then it doesn't matter how aseptic your cleaning regime may be, you just contaminated after cleaning. Star-san or not you dun screwed the pooch in this.

Remember though, you don't need to be "sterile," you only need to create an environment where your chosen infection (yeast) can out compete the other microbes. Many of the peeps out here are over-complicating and over-thinking the process. Not saying that you are wrong, but pointing out that many of us shoot the horse after its already dead, just to be sure.

And for the record, I beat dead horses in my fermenting practices. The only infections I've had are from wild/open fermentations of wild vegetable greens where they are salt rinsed then left to ferment in their own brine. This was from incomplete submerging of the material and aerobic microbes began to reproduce. Never in a beer, wine or cider.

So, is your conclusion that the OP probably has merit to it?

If so, it would be helpful if one of the chemists here could confirm what the proper amount to use would be. We wouldn't want just some peroxide, we'd want to be sure we have enough of it, along with adequate contact time as you suggest.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Our forum rules allow posting in the technical forums (and this is a technical forum) to contain informative, helpful, or interesting information. That way, people not in on the chatter can follow the thread and maybe learn something, or maybe disagree with something. Either way, it's not inane chatter that should be posted.

If you have a remark on the verge of inane, at least couch it in an informative post first.

For example:

A mash pH of 5.3-5.5 is considered optimum for many reasons, including avoiding harshness of hops.

Oh, and I hate Wheaties.

I could let that go. But taunting moderators who don't allow inane posts to clutter up the forum, after getting some robust PMs about this thread, is not going to be allowed. Either stay on topic and make it a thread that is something people want to read, or don't complain when your inane twittering attempt at humor is deleted.

Believe it or not, most of the mod team have better things to do than police people who can't appreciate the volunteer effort involved of keeping our rules intact.

Thanks Yooper...as the OP all I wanted was to post my results after a two year test of a process proven to to work....by me

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

@JONNYROTTEN and everyone else, i ask you to look up the action in which oxiclean does its thing before jumping to conclusions of what is or is not "safe."
Sodium Percarbonate is the main ingredient in oxiclean. When mixed with water, it disassociates into hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate. Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidizer which is used as a disinfectant. It generally requires a contact time of 10min to disinfectant.

Now that we can consider sodium percabonate a disinfectant, we need to go back and evaluate the difference between a disinfectant and a sanitizer. Sanitizers kill 99.999% quickly, but disinfectants kill 100% slowly.

Disinfectant like oxi needs to be rinsed. So does bleach, so what, big deal, who cares. Unless you are using septic wate to rinse, you have nothing to be concerned about. Dump and Fill a plastic water bottle with your tap water and cap it. Leave it for a month. Anything grow? No, your fine to proceed.

But, but, what if i accidentally introduced germs when i used my garden hose from my yard to fill/rinse my container? Then it doesn't matter how aseptic your cleaning regime may be, you just contaminated after cleaning. Star-san or not you dun screwed the pooch in this.

Remember though, you don't need to be "sterile," you only need to create an environment where your chosen infection (yeast) can out compete the other microbes. Many of the peeps out here are over-complicating and over-thinking the process. Not saying that you are wrong, but pointing out that many of us shoot the horse after its already dead, just to be sure.

And for the record, I beat dead horses in my fermenting practices. The only infections I've had are from wild/open fermentations of wild vegetable greens where they are salt rinsed then left to ferment in their own brine. This was from incomplete submerging of the material and aerobic microbes began to reproduce. Never in a beer, wine or cider.

This....Unless your rinsing from your cesspool..Oxi did the real work and your good to go

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

I appreciate JonnyRotten's post as it made me think and consider things I had not previously considered. Thank you!

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I appreciate JonnyRotten's post as it made me think and consider things I had not previously considered. Thank you!

Thanks brother

 

[Bilsch]

Sodium Percarbonate is the main ingredient in oxiclean. When mixed with water, it disassociates into hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate. Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidizer which is used as a disinfectant. It generally requires a contact time of 10min to disinfectant.

Now that we can consider sodium percabonate a disinfectant, we need to go back and evaluate the difference between a disinfectant and a sanitizer. Sanitizers kill 99.999% quickly, but disinfectants kill 100% slowly.

I believe that 10 minute time was based on a 7% hydrogen peroxide solution and if I'm not mistaken pH plays a roll as well and works best for this purpose in acid medium. So I don't think you are safe to assume that any percarbonate solution, with an unknown quantity of formed H2O2, is equal to the peroxide sanitizing solutions you are referring to. There are a lot of variables at work here.
I'd think that if percarbonate worked so well as a sanitizer or sterilizer we would see it being used for this purpose more in industry.

 

[passedpawn]

I believe that 10 minute time was based on a 7% hydrogen peroxide solution and if I'm not mistaken pH plays a roll as well and works best for this purpose in acid medium. So I don't think your safe to assume that any percarbonate solution, with an unknown quantity of formed H2O2, is equal to the peroxide sanitizing solutions you are referring to. There are a lot of variables at work here.
I'd think that if percarbonate worked so well as a sanitizer or sterilizer we would see it being used for this purpose more in industry.

Do you know, is chlorine dioxide being used much in the big breweries?

 

[Bilsch]

Do you know, is chlorine dioxide being used much in the big breweries?

I've seen papers on the subject of its use in dairy and brewing operations but have no direct knowledge of who is using what. Maybe Qhrumphf knows more.

 

[GoeHaarden]

Some how...some way...my response was deleted...as was my thank you....Ill take a picture of this post so when we agree and are cordial theres proof we can actually get along without continuous arguing..Buy the Oxiclean and use it...if it fails you post the reason why. Like I said from post #1 use it with confidence....I could not be more disappointed that my "thanks brother" response was deleted....is that were we're at...no friendliness allowed? WE cant say "thanks brother" without it being deleted? Or did I miss something?

Lol...I guess there were some who were "triggered" by our sibling-esk rhetoric and banter. Thanks to the mods who keep us heathens in line...

Anyways, this thread has opened my eyes to trying oxiclean, and I do plan on trying it in place of my PBW. As it seems its an equal, but cheaper, cleaner if nothing else...

I just don't have the cahoonas to use it without a santizer...

Do any oxi-clean users have a good source for bulk purchase?

 

[day_trippr]

Do you know, is chlorine dioxide being used much in the big breweries?

Considering some folks use that to "clean" harvested yeast I'm going to guess it's not particularly effective for all of the things breweries worry about - including wild yeast...

Cheers!

 

[Qhrumphf]

Considering some folks use that to "clean" harvested yeast I'm going to guess it's not particularly effective for all of the things breweries worry about - including wild yeast...

Cheers!

Neither is StarSan for that matter.

I don't know much about it. As bilsch said, there are papers on it though, so someone somewhere is probably using it.

 

[505-Brewer]

@JONNYROTTEN and everyone else, i ask you to look up the action in which oxiclean does its thing before jumping to conclusions of what is or is not "safe."
Sodium Percarbonate is the main ingredient in oxiclean. When mixed with water, it disassociates into hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate. Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidizer which is used as a disinfectant. It generally requires a contact time of 10min to disinfectant.

Now that we can consider sodium percabonate a disinfectant, we need to go back and evaluate the difference between a disinfectant and a sanitizer. Sanitizers kill 99.999% quickly, but disinfectants kill 100% slowly.

Disinfectant like oxi needs to be rinsed. So does bleach, so what, big deal, who cares. Unless you are using septic wate to rinse, you have nothing to be concerned about. Dump and Fill a plastic water bottle with your tap water and cap it. Leave it for a month. Anything grow? No, your fine to proceed.

But, but, what if i accidentally introduced germs when i used my garden hose from my yard to fill/rinse my container? Then it doesn't matter how aseptic your cleaning regime may be, you just contaminated after cleaning. Star-san or not you dun screwed the pooch in this.

Remember though, you don't need to be "sterile," you only need to create an environment where your chosen infection (yeast) can out compete the other microbes. Many of the peeps out here are over-complicating and over-thinking the process. Not saying that you are wrong, but pointing out that many of us shoot the horse after its already dead, just to be sure.

And for the record, I beat dead horses in my fermenting practices. The only infections I've had are from wild/open fermentations of wild vegetable greens where they are salt rinsed then left to ferment in their own brine. This was from incomplete submerging of the material and aerobic microbes began to reproduce. Never in a beer, wine or cider.

Amen.

 

[505-Brewer]

Do you know, is chlorine dioxide being used much in the big breweries?

I don’t know about “big” breweries (AB Inbev etc) but yes chlorine dioxide is used and is very effective in many craft breweries. That, peracetic acid and hot water/steam seem to be the top three.

Birko corporation sells a sodium chlorite solution which when activated with acid (we use citric acid) releases ClO2. Look for articles on their website by their lead chemist Dana Johnson. Lots of good info there.
We shoot for 25-50 ppm. Works great.

Iodophor is used for sani’ing parts w squirt bottles and soaking. Ive yet to see a brewery use Starsan.