Other Half Daydream (oat cream IPAs) - all grain clone attempts

[weirdalchy]

What ABV did you get? 9oz DH seems quite a lot. I was planning on doing one with ~6.4% ABV and ~6oz in DH.

this was a 7.5% beer

 

[DrinkFresh]

What's the best dry-hopping schedule?

Ive not been too happy with my recent batch—been getting a lot of bitterness/astringency when dry-hopping in the keg, so looking to cut that back or out completely... leaving it to sit for a few days or week till it hopefully tones down.

Wondering if I should switch to just hops in the whirlpool + a large dry-hop charge for X days before kegging?

 

[royger]

What's the best dry-hopping schedule?

Ive not been too happy with my recent batch—been getting a lot of bitterness/astringency when dry-hopping in the keg, so looking to cut that back or out completely... leaving it to sit for a few days or week till it hopefully tones down.

Wondering if I should switch to just hops in the whirlpool + a large dry-hop charge for X days before kegging?

FWIW, and I'm not an expert, but I find that beers with an ABV 6-7% are fine with 5oz of hops in whirlpool @ 65C (150F) for 30min and ~6oz in DH. I split it into 2oz for 7 days (usually add them 24h-36h after pitching yeast) and the remaining 4oz for 3 days when terminal gravity is reached. I've never done DH in the keg, as I find this gives me plenty of hop flavour already.

I have the feeling there's a relation between the FG/OG of a beer (and the resulting ABV) and the amount of DH you can add to it before getting overwhelming.

 

[BeerFst]

@royger there is definitely a relation with ABV and hopping rate beyond just IBU (i know you didnt suggest that). there is a recent Veil "Quad IPA" that is 12.5% and they quoted 12lbs/barrel, that's 30oz/5 gallons...

@DrinkFresh, i typically do ~12 oz, 4 whirlpool, 4 dry hop after terminal, 4 keg hop. I've never had a problem with keg hopping being grassy or anything else. However the consensus over on the perfectly average NEIPA thread is not to dry hop in full on active ferm. some will dry hop with a couple of points left, especially if spunding, but for the most part we are all dry hopping after terminal, and then soft crashing to 50-60 for a couple of days.

After hitting terminal, i drop to 55 or so for 24-48 hours, raise to 65 or so, drop by DH1, leave that for 3 days, then hard crash to 38 (keezer temp), then transfer to a purged keg with DH2. I'll raise again to 65 for 3 more days, then into the keezer for carb and serve.

 

[DrinkFresh]

Great to know, thanks for the info @royger! My current batch is around 5-6% so I will adjust

@BeerFst Interesting, so for ~12oz what your beer's ABV?

For my past batch, I might have over did it with ~15oz of DH for a 8.5-9% ABV Double NEIPA:
— 5oz whirlpool
— 6oz dry hop 1 after terminal (~ day 8) = 6 day DH
— 4oz dry hop 2 in the keg (~ day 14) = 7 day DH

After sampling and tasting astringency after 7 days in the keg, I pulled the hops out from the keg... now letting it sit for this week.

It looks like you have a 3 day DH. I doubled that and thats probably where Im getting astringency

Whats the reason for crashing, dry-hopping, then letting it rise for both dry hop additions?

And do you leave DH2 in the keg when carbing and serving?

 

[BeerFst]

Great to know, thanks for the info @royger! My current batch is around 5-6% so I will adjust

@BeerFst Interesting, so for ~12oz what your beer's ABV?

For my past batch, I might have over did it with ~15oz of DH for a 8.5-9% ABV Double NEIPA:
— 5oz whirlpool
— 6oz dry hop 1 after terminal (~ day 8) = 6 day DH
— 4oz dry hop 2 in the keg (~ day 14) = 7 day DH

After sampling and tasting astringency after 7 days in the keg, I pulled the hops out from the keg... now letting it sit for this week.

It looks like you have a 3 day DH. I doubled that and thats probably where Im getting astringency

Whats the reason for crashing, dry-hopping, then letting it rise for both dry hop additions?

And do you leave DH2 in the keg when carbing and serving?

The crash is to drop yeast. While the direct interaction with yeast and hops can give some more intense haze, it's not required. additionally the yeast can bind with some compounds and when you do crash (either cold in a bottle or keg) it will pull those flavor compounds out.

increasing to 65 is just my own Best known method. I have read several reports of breweries dropping to 58 (JC from trillium noted to dry hop at 60) and then dry hopping at the same or letting it free rise but i find i get the best results around 65. I have done it at 60 ish and didnt get what i wanted out of it.

are you using a floating dip tube or similar? I use them in my serving kegs when keg hopping. I also have my fermentation keg set up with a utah biodiesel filter over the dip tube. both work well and i haven't experienced hop burn once implementing these and stopping my fermentation dry hop. and yes DH2 remains in the keg til it kicks.

 

[TBryerton]

I was able to get my hands on a four pack of All Together from OH, and also had one from a local brewery. If I didn’t have them at the same time I wouldn’t have known they were the same recipe. Back to back you could tell the hops were very close in terms of flavor. The OH version had more of an oat presence, but not nearly as much as their typical IPAs. It also tasted much thicker - even though they both measured the same FG. Assuming a lot of that is the water chemistry.

The local beer wasn’t very good. Basically hop water - so I won’t throw out any names. I notice with a lot breweries that try to make this style, the hops almost taste like they’re an addition to the final product, rather than being fully integrated into the overall flavor. I know that doesn’t really make sense, not sure how else to explain it. The OH version was very good, and while not as thick and heavy as their typical IPAs, much more crushable.

 

[DrinkFresh]

The crash is to drop yeast. While the direct interaction with yeast and hops can give some more intense haze, it's not required. additionally the yeast can bind with some compounds and when you do crash (either cold in a bottle or keg) it will pull those flavor compounds out.

increasing to 65 is just my own Best known method. I have read several reports of breweries dropping to 58 (JC from trillium noted to dry hop at 60) and then dry hopping at the same or letting it free rise but i find i get the best results around 65. I have done it at 60 ish and didnt get what i wanted out of it.

are you using a floating dip tube or similar? I use them in my serving kegs when keg hopping. I also have my fermentation keg set up with a utah biodiesel filter over the dip tube. both work well and i haven't experienced hop burn once implementing these and stopping my fermentation dry hop. and yes DH2 remains in the keg til it kicks.

I see, that's good info! I'll try to do that with the beer that's fermenting now and hope for better results.

I'm not using a floating dip tube, but am using a stainless steel mesh cylinder hop filter...

I used to leave that in the keg too, but with this past batch, I decided to remove it... Not sure what I can do at this point. Tasted a sample last night and the bitter/astringent taste is starting to fade. Aroma is also fading unfortunately as well, just not getting the tropical hop punch I was hoping for

 

[royger]

I was able to get my hands on a four pack of All Together from OH, and also had one from a local brewery. If I didn’t have them at the same time I wouldn’t have known they were the same recipe. Back to back you could tell the hops were very close in terms of flavor. The OH version had more of an oat presence, but not nearly as much as their typical IPAs. It also tasted much thicker - even though they both measured the same FG. Assuming a lot of that is the water chemistry.

On the All Together recipe they list Chloride levels below 300ppm, so on my next batch of anything that I want to have a 'creamy/thick' mouthfeel I will target for ~250ppm Chloride, 80ppm Sulfate, 100ppm Sodium and 80 calcium or less I think.

 

[beervoid]

The crash is to drop yeast. While the direct interaction with yeast and hops can give some more intense haze, it's not required. additionally the yeast can bind with some compounds and when you do crash (either cold in a bottle or keg) it will pull those flavor compounds out.

increasing to 65 is just my own Best known method. I have read several reports of breweries dropping to 58 (JC from trillium noted to dry hop at 60) and then dry hopping at the same or letting it free rise but i find i get the best results around 65. I have done it at 60 ish and didnt get what i wanted out of it.

are you using a floating dip tube or similar? I use them in my serving kegs when keg hopping. I also have my fermentation keg set up with a utah biodiesel filter over the dip tube. both work well and i haven't experienced hop burn once implementing these and stopping my fermentation dry hop. and yes DH2 remains in the keg til it kicks.

Do you remember where you read JC stating they dry hop at 60f?

 

[BeerFst]

Do you remember where you read JC stating they dry hop at 60f?

It wasn't that the production brewery was, but it was a "if you want to replicate the results at home" kind of thing. I am having a little trouble finding it though, I've definitely seen it a number of times, just not sure if here or reddit or beer advocate. JC was posting on BA for a bit, like here, https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/is-4-oz-of-dry-hopping-too-much.210334/

I'll keep looking

Edit: @beervoid I swear that I've seen it somewhere, 100% positive, but so far i keep striking out. It occurred to me, I might have remembered incorrectly and it might be Vinny C from Russian River and i did find his pliny recipe, but it notes to crash to 60 and then let it rise as high as 68 (for homebrewers) he noted they could get to 66 with younger in the article, but that seems to be driven by their inability to get that much volume to warm up. (See link in this article, https://homebrew.stackexchange.com/questions/3475/what-is-the-effect-of-temperature-on-dry-hopping)

Edit2: well i found one reference on a very recent post on this thread from @HopsAreGood. interestingly @beervoid, you went back and forth with him. I definitely recall seeing it before Hops posted that, but like i said, i just cant find it anywhere. though it is possible it's not well substantiated. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/northeast-style-ipa.568046/page-289#post-8821405

 

[beervoid]

It wasn't that the production brewery was, but it was a "if you want to replicate the results at home" kind of thing. I am having a little trouble finding it though, I've definitely seen it a number of times, just not sure if here or reddit or beer advocate. JC was posting on BA for a bit, like here, https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/is-4-oz-of-dry-hopping-too-much.210334/

I'll keep looking

Edit: @beervoid I swear that I've seen it somewhere, 100% positive, but so far i keep striking out. It occurred to me, I might have remembered incorrectly and it might be Vinny C from Russian River and i did find his pliny recipe, but it notes to crash to 60 and then let it rise as high as 68 (for homebrewers) he noted they could get to 66 with younger in the article, but that seems to be driven by their inability to get that much volume to warm up. (See link in this article, https://homebrew.stackexchange.com/questions/3475/what-is-the-effect-of-temperature-on-dry-hopping)

Edit2: well i found one reference on a very recent post on this thread from @HopsAreGood. interestingly @beervoid, you went back and forth with him. I definitely recall seeing it before Hops posted that, but like i said, i just cant find it anywhere. though it is possible it's not well substantiated. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/northeast-style-ipa.568046/page-289#post-8821405

Thanks for elaborating.
All I know is for homebrewers he recommended dryhopping at tail end as to have some oxygen scrubbing occuring.

 

[couchsending]

Do you remember where you read JC stating they dry hop at 60f?

BA forum. Prolly in the cloning Congress Street thread. He also gave a recipe for cloning Fort Point. Might be in there.

Also if you read the Double Sunshine recipe that Shaun Lawson gave CB&B in 2017 he mentions dropping to 55 to get yeast to flocc and dry hopping at 55-57. They use Chico.

Some old probrewer posts with Shaun Hill talking about the same thing.

 

[beervoid]

BA forum. Prolly in the cloning Congress Street thread. He also gave a recipe for cloning Fort Point. Might be in there.

Also if you read the Double Sunshine recipe that Shaun Lawson gave CB&B in 2017 he mentions dropping to 55 to get yeast to flocc and dry hopping at 55-57. They use Chico.

Some old probrewer posts with Shaun Hill talking about the same thing.

Thanks, will give BA a read again.

 

[brew703]

kegged my second batch today. Should be ready to sample on Wednesday.

 

[MrPowers]

To be fair, I’ve never had anything from Other Half (would love to at some point), but I’ve been very intrigued by an oat heavy IPA for a while. So, I kind of went with an Other Half inspired grain bill and Trillium inspired hop bill on this one. It’s Columbus/Vic Secret. Sulfate heavy. Fermented with S-04. 1.069-1.010 so 7.8%.

The grain bill was:
47% Rahr 2-Row
24% Canada Malting Oat Malt
12% Rahr White Wheat
12% Flaked Oats
3% Briess 10L Caramel
2% Corn Sugar (added to keg prime)

The aroma and mouthfeel are both outstanding. It's still a little green (has a little polyphenol bite from the 1oz/gal Vic Secret dry hop), but the malt character is crazy smooth/rich. I really don't think that high chloride levels are nearly as important as good wort production practices!

 

[Noob_Brewer]

To be fair, I’ve never had anything from Other Half (would love to at some point), but I’ve been very intrigued by an oat heavy IPA for a while. So, I kind of went with an Other Half inspired grain bill and Trillium inspired hop bill on this one. It’s Columbus/Vic Secret. Sulfate heavy. Fermented with S-04. 1.069-1.010 so 7.8%.

The grain bill was:
47% Rahr 2-Row
24% Canada Malting Oat Malt
12% Rahr White Wheat
12% Flaked Oats
3% Briess 10L Caramel
2% Corn Sugar (added to keg prime)
View attachment 677553

The aroma and mouthfeel are both outstanding. It's still a little green (has a little polyphenol bite from the 1oz/gal Vic Secret dry hop), but the malt character is crazy smooth/rich. I really don't think that high chloride levels are nearly as important as good wort production practices!

Haven't used S04 yet, but what temp did you mash at to get the finish down to 1.010? I imagine that even though its finished low, all the oats/wheat help with the mouthfeel and doesn't get perceived as "dry"

 

[MrPowers]

Haven't used S04 yet, but what temp did you mash at to get the finish down to 1.010? I imagine that even though its finished low, all the oats/wheat help with the mouthfeel and doesn't get perceived as "dry"

I used a step mash:
145 for 20 min
149 for 20 min
153 for 10 min
163 for 30 min
171 for 10 min

I got approximately 4-5 points extra points of attenuation from hop creep. I added dry hops at 68F, without soft crashing. So there was plenty of yeast in suspension.

It definitely doesn't come off as dry, even with elevated sulfate/low FG.

 

[skibb]

Haven't used S04 yet, but what temp did you mash at to get the finish down to 1.010? I imagine that even though its finished low, all the oats/wheat help with the mouthfeel and doesn't get perceived as "dry"

I'm not totally convinced FG has as much of a dramatic impact as some feel like it does in regards to mouthfeel - I have degassed several Street series beers from Trillium and they all finish at 1.006. I did a hazy pale ale from them as well and it was 1.004. All had decent to great mouthfeel.

So yes, I think the use of oats/wheat is very important in mouthfeel and perceived 'fullness'.

 

[brew703]

To be fair, I’ve never had anything from Other Half (would love to at some point), but I’ve been very intrigued by an oat heavy IPA for a while. So, I kind of went with an Other Half inspired grain bill and Trillium inspired hop bill on this one. It’s Columbus/Vic Secret. Sulfate heavy. Fermented with S-04. 1.069-1.010 so 7.8%.

The grain bill was:
47% Rahr 2-Row
24% Canada Malting Oat Malt
12% Rahr White Wheat
12% Flaked Oats
3% Briess 10L Caramel
2% Corn Sugar (added to keg prime)
View attachment 677553

The aroma and mouthfeel are both outstanding. It's still a little green (has a little polyphenol bite from the 1oz/gal Vic Secret dry hop), but the malt character is crazy smooth/rich. I really don't think that high chloride levels are nearly as important as good wort production practices!

What was your water ADDITIONS? Nice color.
Pulled a sample of my V2 today. Needs a couple more days.

 

[brew703]

Here's V2.
Mouthfeel isn't as slick as V1 with a bit more Na.
Next version will take the malted oats and flaked oats up to 20-25% each and may increase honey malt a bit.
Going to also aim for na of 60.

 

[MrPowers]

What was your water ADDITIONS? Nice color.
Pulled a sample of my V2 today. Needs a couple more days.

The water profile was built from 100% RO.

The final water profile was approximately:
Ca: 100ppm
Mg: 15ppm
Na: 30ppm + a small amount from the kmeta
So4: 275ppm (approx. 250ppm from gypsum & 25ppm from kmeta) Approximately 50ppm of the Ca and 120ppm of the So4 was a boil addition of Gypsum.
Cl: 75

On my system, for a 12 gallon batch, that meant:
CaCl: 2.2g
Epsom: 6.5g
Gypsum: 6g (mash) + 10g (boil)
NaCl: 3.7g
kmeta: 1.82g
Brewtan B: 3.9g
Ascorbic Acid: 1.5g
88% Lactic to adjust mash ph to 5.45.

 

[Jesse Runowski]

It wasn't that the production brewery was, but it was a "if you want to replicate the results at home" kind of thing. I am having a little trouble finding it though, I've definitely seen it a number of times, just not sure if here or reddit or beer advocate. JC was posting on BA for a bit, like here, is 4 oz of dry hopping too much?

I'll keep looking

Edit: @beervoid I swear that I've seen it somewhere, 100% positive, but so far i keep striking out.

I think this might be what you are looking for. It was a twitter Exchange between Trillium and a fellow home brewer looking to clone one of their recipes.

 

[BeerFst]

I think this might be what you are looking for. It was a twitter Exchange between Trillium and a fellow home brewer looking to clone one of their recipes.

These are the droids I'm look for! Nice find, that is certainly it

 

[NJGeorge]

To be fair, I’ve never had anything from Other Half (would love to at some point), but I’ve been very intrigued by an oat heavy IPA for a while. So, I kind of went with an Other Half inspired grain bill and Trillium inspired hop bill on this one. It’s Columbus/Vic Secret. Sulfate heavy. Fermented with S-04. 1.069-1.010 so 7.8%.

The grain bill was:
47% Rahr 2-Row
24% Canada Malting Oat Malt
12% Rahr White Wheat
12% Flaked Oats
3% Briess 10L Caramel
2% Corn Sugar (added to keg prime)
View attachment 677553

The aroma and mouthfeel are both outstanding. It's still a little green (has a little polyphenol bite from the 1oz/gal Vic Secret dry hop), but the malt character is crazy smooth/rich. I really don't think that high chloride levels are nearly as important as good wort production practices!

Very nice! What temp did you ferment the S-04 at and what was your pitching rate? Any esters?

 

[MrPowers]

Very nice! What temp did you ferment the S-04 at and what was your pitching rate? Any esters?

Pitched at about .7m/ml/plato calculated on brewers friend. Fermented at 63F. Very low in the esters department. Fermenting low seemed to help keep the "bready" and tart character from the S-04 in check.

 

[NJGeorge]

Pitched at about .7m/ml/plato calculated on brewers friend. Fermented at 63F. Very low in the esters department. Fermenting low seemed to help keep the "bready" and tart character from the S-04 in check.

Cool thanks. Rehydrated or dry pitch?

 

[beervoid]

I think this might be what you are looking for. It was a twitter Exchange between Trillium and a fellow home brewer looking to clone one of their recipes.

Cool thanks for digging that up.

 

[FitForAPaul]

When is everyone dry hopping? High krausen or post ferm? I currently have a Belgian IPA going and plan to expand my old neipa recipe into an OH clone. Love OH and need more

 

[MrPowers]

Cool thanks. Rehydrated or dry pitch?

Actually I made a 2l starter with 2 packets, then decanted and made a vitality starter on brewday.