Other Half Daydream (oat cream IPAs) - all grain clone attempts

[beervoid]

To just be able to drink it or to actually enjoy it in its prime?

With a kviek yeast and rushing, 5/6 days. I’ve gone grain to glass in that amount of time but It is typically very green at that point. Especially if you use malted oats at a high percentage. I’ve found I get hop burn often with malted oats.


To actually enjoy it. 10-14 days in primary and then another 7-14 days on gas and stored cold. This seems to be the sweet spot for about 90% of the NEIPA or Oat Cream IPA.

Interested in your oat burn connection. I've experienced the same thing but with flaked oats.
At what % are you seeing this?

 

[Dgallo]

Interested in your oat burn connection. I've experienced the same thing but with flaked oats.
At what % are you seeing this?

15% or more. I have a feeling the excess proteins and lipids in the oats are easily bound to hotside polyphenols during fermentation. It’s worse if you dryhop during fermentation(which I no longer do)

 

[beervoid]

15% or more. I have a feeling the excess proteins and lipids in the oats are easily bound to hotside polyphenols during fermentation. It’s worse if you dryhop during fermentation(which I no longer do)

Yeah I think its a matter of viscosity, obviously the more stuff in suspension the more clings to it and the more time it takes to drop out.
Did you see any of this when using excessive wheat or other protein rich adjuncts?

 

[sfrisby]

To just be able to drink it or to actually enjoy it in its prime?

With a kviek yeast and rushing, 5/6 days. I’ve gone grain to glass in that amount of time but It is typically very green at that point. Especially if you use malted oats at a high percentage. I’ve found I get hop burn often with malted oats.


To actually enjoy it. 10-14 days in primary and then another 7-14 days on gas and stored cold. This seems to be the sweet spot for about 90% of the NEIPA or Oat Cream IPA.

Great. Thanks.

 

[Dgallo]

Yeah I think its a matter of viscosity, obviously the more stuff in suspension the more clings to it and the more time it takes to drop out.
Did you see any of this when using excessive wheat or other protein rich adjuncts?

Not to the same extent. From time to time I will get hopburn with wheat or flaked barley, but it’s very rare and typically only with neomex or south hem hops. I haven’t experienced it with chit malt yet but I’ve only used it once so it doesn’t really say anything.

With heavy oats though, it seems like I get hop burn far more often than not

 

[beervoid]

Not to the same extent. From time to time I will get hopburn with wheat or flaked barley, but it’s very rare and typically only with neomex or south hem hops. I haven’t experienced it with chit malt yet but I’ve only used it once so it doesn’t really say anything.

With heavy oats though, it seems like I get hop burn far more often than not

I have gone very high with chit malt and its not as bad as oats in my experience.
Cheers.

 

[TravelingLight]

I've been able to find some white wheat (raw unmalted, which seems to be quite complicated to find in my place), and was planning to do a grain will quite similar to yours. Never having used it, might I ask what's the purpose of the raw wheat? And do you cook it previously in order to convert the scratch?

I was planning to add it to the mash as-is, because I think part of the point of using it is to obtain the scratches instead of the sugars? (or else it could be replaced with flaked wheat?)

Thanks.

To be frank, I know Cerebral (Denver) uses it in some of theirs, and I had never tried it before so I was just trying it out.

No cereal mash needed, assuming you've got plenty of diastatic power otherwise (which shouldn't be a problem with these beers). I will say though, if I used it again, I would tighten the gap on my mill and crush it finer, like I do with malted oats.

But regardless, I don't think it brought a lot to the beer and probably won't mess with it in the future.

 

[TravelingLight]

Brewed my second "heavy malted oats" hazyboi this past Wednesday. Made some changes from the first iteration. I dropped the flaked oats completely, dropped the raw wheat, upped the malted oats, and added in a smidge of light munich for color. Here's what I settled on...

49% Malted Oats
40% 2-Row
8% White Wheat
3% Light Munich (~8L)
Mashed at 154
30m Boil
Whirlpool at 180*, 30m (Idaho 7, Mosaic, Citra - with the majority being Idaho 7)
Fermenting with Bootleg's NEEPAH Blend

OG sample looked and smelled great. This is my first time using Idaho 7 and I'm pretty excited about it, especially after reading some stuff from Janish talking about how much he loves whirlpooling Idaho 7. I will report back next week when it's in the keg.

Here's a solid picture. Body is perfect, mouthfeel is spot on, bittering is where I want it. Only changes I want to make is to drop the munich, and work in a scant amount of honey malt to get a little more color.

Also, my other biggest problem with this beer is lack of aroma. I've got about 14.5 ounces of hops in this between the whirlpool, DH1, DH2, and keg hop and the aroma is seriously lacking. All fresh hops from YVH, 2019 crops. Considering racking half of this to another keg with a few drops of terpenes to punch of the aroma.

 

[ThenFalcon]

Brewed this one with Citra/Galaxy/Mosaic

 

[Fergal]

Watched an Instagram video with Other Half & a NZ brewery Garage Project. Sam confirmed they whirlpool at 180F for anyone interested. He also confirmed they have no intention of sending beer to Australia

 

[TravelingLight]

Watched an Instagram video with Other Half & a NZ brewery Garage Project. Sam confirmed they whirlpool at 180F for anyone interested. He also confirmed they have no intention of sending beer to Australia

I used to do two whirlpools, one around 165-70, and another around 120 degrees. After reading Janish's latest book (well, most of it so far), I've gone back to just one WP, at 180-75 degrees based on his research. Plus, the 120 degree WP was kind of pointless and no different than a dry hop at yeast pitch.

 

[Dgallo]

I used to do two whirlpools, one around 165-70, and another around 120 degrees. After reading Janish's latest book (well, most of it so far), I've gone back to just one WP, at 180-75 degrees based on his research. Plus, the 120 degree WP was kind of pointless and no different than a dry hop at yeast pitch.

Really depends on your bittering charge and if you’re using boil hops. If you are using boil hops, you might as well whirlpool at a lower temp than 180. If you want to pick up your bitterness from the whirlpool, then add the hops from flame out to 180*f

 

[TravelingLight]

Really depends on your bittering charge and if you’re using boil hops. If you are using boil hops, you might as well whirlpool at a lower temp than 180. If you want to pick up your bitterness from the whirlpool, then add the hops from flame out to 180*f

I'll have to find it in the book. But basically he found based on research (and experience?) that the 180ish-85 degree whirlpool was the best temp for getting as much out of the WP hops as possible. But, FWIW, I either don't do any hops until WP, or I do a flame out and WP addition. Depends on what I want and what kind of IBUs I want in the beer. So sometimes I do want bitterness from the WP. I rely on the WP calculations in Beersmith 3. Sure it's not perfect, but IMO it's better than not attempting to calculate WP additions at all.

 

[royger]

Brewed my second "heavy malted oats" hazyboi this past Wednesday. Made some changes from the first iteration. I dropped the flaked oats completely, dropped the raw wheat, upped the malted oats, and added in a smidge of light munich for color. Here's what I settled on...

49% Malted Oats
40% 2-Row
8% White Wheat
3% Light Munich (~8L)

Mashed at 154
30m Boil

I gave a try to (mostly) the same grain bill this weekend and got a very bad mash efficiency (48%), my usual mash efficiency is between 65-70%. I was aiming at 1.062 pre-boil and got 1.046, so I ended up adding 500gr (1.1lb) of corn sugar at boil in order to bring the gravity up, not sure that was a wise decision, beer is still fermenting. My grain bill is:

Golden Promise (Thomas Fawcett) 43%
Chateau de-husked Oat Malt (Castle Malting) 41%
Unmalted wheat 8%
Munich I 14EBC/~7L (Weyermann) 3%
Milk sugar (boil) 5%

I do BIAB full volume, this time I did half a batch (2.5gal keg) because I wanted to adjust the recipe before doing a full batch (NEIPAs are expensive hop-wise). I warmed the strike water to 74C (165F) added grains and checked temperature after stirring it was 68C (155F). Did a 45min mash, stirred once in the middle. Temperature at the end of mash was 64C (147F), it was a warm day, didn't reheat the mash at all.

It's the first time I've used de-husked oat malt from Castle, and I'm unsure if that was the culprit. I've used Thomas Fawcett oat malt in the past, but not in this amounts (20-30% of the grain bill tops) and turned out fine. I don't mill my own grains and rely on LHBS to do that. Grains where ordered like 1 week ago, so should be fresh.

I'm attaching a photo of the milled oat malt, maybe it should be more finely crushed?
Should I increase my mash time for this kind of grain bill?
Do others get normal efficiency when brewing this style?

Thanks!

 

[BrewMan13]

Milling does look insufficient and is probably the main reason for the poor efficiency. You may also be getting poor conversion because there may not enough diastatic power (didn't crunch the numbers, but it looks like less than half the grist has any diastatic power at all.

 

[TravelingLight]

I gave a try to (mostly) the same grain bill this weekend and got a very bad mash efficiency (48%), my usual mash efficiency is between 65-70%. I was aiming at 1.062 pre-boil and got 1.046, so I ended up adding 500gr (1.1lb) of corn sugar at boil in order to bring the gravity up, not sure that was a wise decision, beer is still fermenting. My grain bill is:

Golden Promise (Thomas Fawcett) 43%
Chateau de-husked Oat Malt (Castle Malting) 41%
Unmalted wheat 8%
Munich I 14EBC/~7L (Weyermann) 3%
Milk sugar (boil) 5%

I do BIAB full volume, this time I did half a batch (2.5gal keg) because I wanted to adjust the recipe before doing a full batch (NEIPAs are expensive hop-wise). I warmed the strike water to 74C (165F) added grains and checked temperature after stirring it was 68C (155F). Did a 45min mash, stirred once in the middle. Temperature at the end of mash was 64C (147F), it was a warm day, didn't reheat the mash at all.

It's the first time I've used de-husked oat malt from Castle, and I'm unsure if that was the culprit. I've used Thomas Fawcett oat malt in the past, but not in this amounts (20-30% of the grain bill tops) and turned out fine. I don't mill my own grains and rely on LHBS to do that. Grains where ordered like 1 week ago, so should be fresh.

I'm attaching a photo of the milled oat malt, maybe it should be more finely crushed?
Should I increase my mash time for this kind of grain bill?
Do others get normal efficiency when brewing this style?

Thanks!

My first "heavy malted oats" beer, my efficiency was horrible. The second time I did it, I adjusted the gap on my mill to crush the oats finer. I still missed my OG, but only a few points. The malted oats definitely need to be crushed finer. But if you're doing BIAB, I assume you're crushing pretty fine anyway? If I did BIAB, I'd basically be pulverizing it to dust.

 

[royger]

My first "heavy malted oats" beer, my efficiency was horrible. The second time I did it, I adjusted the gap on my mill to crush the oats finer. I still missed my OG, but only a few points. The malted oats definitely need to be crushed finer. But if you're doing BIAB, I assume you're crushing pretty fine anyway? If I did BIAB, I'd basically be pulverizing it to dust.

Well, I asked my LHBS to fine crush them, and that's what I got (see photo attached on a previous post). I sadly have no mill myself, so there's not much I can do for what I have left (2.5Kg for another batch). I will request them to be even more finely crushed for my next order. Does someone that does BIAB have a photo of what should it look like so I can forward it to them?

My LHBS ordered the malted oats specifically on my request, so I guess they don't have a lot of experience in handling them.

 

[royger]

Milling does look insufficient and is probably the main reason for the poor efficiency. You may also be getting poor conversion because there may not enough diastatic power (didn't crunch the numbers, but it looks like less than half the grist has any diastatic power at all.

DP was ~33, so borderline conversion. I should have mashed for a bit longer (60-90min) maybe, and it seems like the malted oats are not properly crushed.

 

[brew703]

You can always put your grains in a food processor to get them finer. I got tired of getting the evil eye when asking the HBS to double crush my grains. I ended up just getting a mill. Even a Corona mill will work but will take a long time to mill grains for a 5 lb batch. I've been double crushing my grains and that has helped some but I still miss my OG (not by much) when i use a odd bit of oat malt.

 

[FitForAPaul]

My attempt:
2 row 45%
Malted oats 30%
Flaked oats 20%
Carapils 5%
Citra mosaic Amarillo
Wyeast 1318

Still needs more carbonation but seems a little thinner than I wanted

 

[beervoid]

View attachment 682676
My attempt:
2 row 45%
Malted oats 30%
Flaked oats 20%
Carapils 5%
Citra mosaic Amarillo
Wyeast 1318

Still needs more carbonation but seems a little thinner than I wanted

Thin with 50% oats?? What was the fg and your water profile?

 

[FitForAPaul]

Thin with 50% oats?? What was the fg and your water profile?

I want to blame the carbonation because eits still carbonating and it was 1.013 and I was shooting for 1.020 lol. Water was 2:1 cl to sulfate

 

[beervoid]

I want to blame the carbonation because eits still carbonating and it was 1.013 and I was shooting for 1.020 lol. Water was 2:1 cl to sulfate

Oh thats quiet low, how much attenuation did you get? I would think it finish much higher with all the oats

 

[FitForAPaul]

Oh thats quiet low, how much attenuation did you get? I would think it finish much higher with all the oats

I'm probably just as shocked as you but 83%. I have a feeling Amarillo causes hop creep which I've heard from a head brewer at a local brewery. Ive used Amarillo 2 times and both times I've had high attenuation when used in dry hop

 

[beervoid]

I'm probably just as shocked as you but 83%. I have a feeling Amarillo causes hop creep which I've heard from a head brewer at a local brewery. Ive used Amarillo 2 times and both times I've had high attenuation when used in dry hop

Mash temp and pitch rate?

 

[Clyde McCoy]

I'm probably just as shocked as you but 83%. I have a feeling Amarillo causes hop creep which I've heard from a head brewer at a local brewery. Ive used Amarillo 2 times and both times I've had high attenuation when used in dry hop

I don't think any specific variety of hops cause hop creep. Hops + yeast causes hop creep...

 

[couchsending]

I don't think any specific variety of hops cause hop creep. Hops + yeast causes hop creep...

Certain varieties and harvest years are more prone to it than others. Certain lots of hops will be higher in the enzymes than others. Also has to do with kilning temps. Amarillo, Centennial, El Dorado are the ones specifically I’ve heard referenced quite a bit as more likely to cause it.

 

[FitForAPaul]

Mash temp and pitch rate?

Mash was 150 pitch idk exact rate but likely 1.2. I know it wasn't too much more than 1

 

[royger]

So this is my first attempt at this style. My efficiency sucked (48% instead of the expected 65%) so I ended up adding 500gr of dextrose at boil for a 2.5gal batch to bump the ABV to 6.4%. Beer still has mouthfeel and body due to the lactose, but it's missing some grain character IMO, probably due to the low conversion. Grain bill with the added dextrose is:

2.1 kg (38.9%) — Thomas Fawcett Pale Malt, Golden Promise — Grain — 5.9 EBC
2 kg (37%) — Castle Malting Chateau Oat Malt — Grain — 5 EBC
400 g (7.4%) — Wheat Unmalted — Grain — 3.2 EBC
150 g (2.8%) — Weyermann Munich I — Grain — 14 EBC
500 g (9.3%) — Corn Sugar (Dextrose) — Sugar — 0 EBC
250 g (4.6%) — Milk Sugar (Lactose) — Sugar — 0 EBC

Ca+2 114 Mg+ 24 Na+ 64 Cl- 250 SO4-2 63 HCO3- 22

4:1 Cl:SO ratio, on my next attempt I will likely try 3:1 Cl:SO ratio to see if it makes any difference.

Hopped with Cashmere and Sabro, approx using a 3:1 ratio (cashmere:sabro). I was expecting big coconut flavour but instead I got pineapple. A friend that tasted it even asked if there was real pineapple on the beer. Not bad at all.

I'm planning a new batch using Honey malt, in order to get some more color and malt flavour.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Trillium inspired hop bill on this one. It’s Columbus/Vic Secret.

So Im planning on taking a stab at this OatCreamIPA but using Columbus/Galaxy. I understand that Congress street uses all columbus on hot side and only 1.5oz of columbus and rest (~6oz) galaxy for the DH for a 5g batch- is that how you ran with this? ie vic secret in DH only with a touch of columbus in DH? Also wasn't sure if you put a dash of vic secret in WP or just used it exclusively in DH. Thanks.