Other Half Daydream (oat cream IPAs) - all grain clone attempts

[TravelingLight]

Watched an Instagram video with Other Half & a NZ brewery Garage Project. Sam confirmed they whirlpool at 180F for anyone interested. He also confirmed they have no intention of sending beer to Australia

I used to do two whirlpools, one around 165-70, and another around 120 degrees. After reading Janish's latest book (well, most of it so far), I've gone back to just one WP, at 180-75 degrees based on his research. Plus, the 120 degree WP was kind of pointless and no different than a dry hop at yeast pitch.

 

[Dgallo]

I used to do two whirlpools, one around 165-70, and another around 120 degrees. After reading Janish's latest book (well, most of it so far), I've gone back to just one WP, at 180-75 degrees based on his research. Plus, the 120 degree WP was kind of pointless and no different than a dry hop at yeast pitch.

Really depends on your bittering charge and if you’re using boil hops. If you are using boil hops, you might as well whirlpool at a lower temp than 180. If you want to pick up your bitterness from the whirlpool, then add the hops from flame out to 180*f

 

[TravelingLight]

Really depends on your bittering charge and if you’re using boil hops. If you are using boil hops, you might as well whirlpool at a lower temp than 180. If you want to pick up your bitterness from the whirlpool, then add the hops from flame out to 180*f

I'll have to find it in the book. But basically he found based on research (and experience?) that the 180ish-85 degree whirlpool was the best temp for getting as much out of the WP hops as possible. But, FWIW, I either don't do any hops until WP, or I do a flame out and WP addition. Depends on what I want and what kind of IBUs I want in the beer. So sometimes I do want bitterness from the WP. I rely on the WP calculations in Beersmith 3. Sure it's not perfect, but IMO it's better than not attempting to calculate WP additions at all.

 

[royger]

Brewed my second "heavy malted oats" hazyboi this past Wednesday. Made some changes from the first iteration. I dropped the flaked oats completely, dropped the raw wheat, upped the malted oats, and added in a smidge of light munich for color. Here's what I settled on...

49% Malted Oats
40% 2-Row
8% White Wheat
3% Light Munich (~8L)

Mashed at 154
30m Boil

I gave a try to (mostly) the same grain bill this weekend and got a very bad mash efficiency (48%), my usual mash efficiency is between 65-70%. I was aiming at 1.062 pre-boil and got 1.046, so I ended up adding 500gr (1.1lb) of corn sugar at boil in order to bring the gravity up, not sure that was a wise decision, beer is still fermenting. My grain bill is:

Golden Promise (Thomas Fawcett) 43%
Chateau de-husked Oat Malt (Castle Malting) 41%
Unmalted wheat 8%
Munich I 14EBC/~7L (Weyermann) 3%
Milk sugar (boil) 5%

I do BIAB full volume, this time I did half a batch (2.5gal keg) because I wanted to adjust the recipe before doing a full batch (NEIPAs are expensive hop-wise). I warmed the strike water to 74C (165F) added grains and checked temperature after stirring it was 68C (155F). Did a 45min mash, stirred once in the middle. Temperature at the end of mash was 64C (147F), it was a warm day, didn't reheat the mash at all.

It's the first time I've used de-husked oat malt from Castle, and I'm unsure if that was the culprit. I've used Thomas Fawcett oat malt in the past, but not in this amounts (20-30% of the grain bill tops) and turned out fine. I don't mill my own grains and rely on LHBS to do that. Grains where ordered like 1 week ago, so should be fresh.

I'm attaching a photo of the milled oat malt, maybe it should be more finely crushed?
Should I increase my mash time for this kind of grain bill?
Do others get normal efficiency when brewing this style?

Thanks!

 

[BrewMan13]

Milling does look insufficient and is probably the main reason for the poor efficiency. You may also be getting poor conversion because there may not enough diastatic power (didn't crunch the numbers, but it looks like less than half the grist has any diastatic power at all.

 

[TravelingLight]

I gave a try to (mostly) the same grain bill this weekend and got a very bad mash efficiency (48%), my usual mash efficiency is between 65-70%. I was aiming at 1.062 pre-boil and got 1.046, so I ended up adding 500gr (1.1lb) of corn sugar at boil in order to bring the gravity up, not sure that was a wise decision, beer is still fermenting. My grain bill is:

Golden Promise (Thomas Fawcett) 43%
Chateau de-husked Oat Malt (Castle Malting) 41%
Unmalted wheat 8%
Munich I 14EBC/~7L (Weyermann) 3%
Milk sugar (boil) 5%

I do BIAB full volume, this time I did half a batch (2.5gal keg) because I wanted to adjust the recipe before doing a full batch (NEIPAs are expensive hop-wise). I warmed the strike water to 74C (165F) added grains and checked temperature after stirring it was 68C (155F). Did a 45min mash, stirred once in the middle. Temperature at the end of mash was 64C (147F), it was a warm day, didn't reheat the mash at all.

It's the first time I've used de-husked oat malt from Castle, and I'm unsure if that was the culprit. I've used Thomas Fawcett oat malt in the past, but not in this amounts (20-30% of the grain bill tops) and turned out fine. I don't mill my own grains and rely on LHBS to do that. Grains where ordered like 1 week ago, so should be fresh.

I'm attaching a photo of the milled oat malt, maybe it should be more finely crushed?
Should I increase my mash time for this kind of grain bill?
Do others get normal efficiency when brewing this style?

Thanks!

My first "heavy malted oats" beer, my efficiency was horrible. The second time I did it, I adjusted the gap on my mill to crush the oats finer. I still missed my OG, but only a few points. The malted oats definitely need to be crushed finer. But if you're doing BIAB, I assume you're crushing pretty fine anyway? If I did BIAB, I'd basically be pulverizing it to dust.

 

[royger]

My first "heavy malted oats" beer, my efficiency was horrible. The second time I did it, I adjusted the gap on my mill to crush the oats finer. I still missed my OG, but only a few points. The malted oats definitely need to be crushed finer. But if you're doing BIAB, I assume you're crushing pretty fine anyway? If I did BIAB, I'd basically be pulverizing it to dust.

Well, I asked my LHBS to fine crush them, and that's what I got (see photo attached on a previous post). I sadly have no mill myself, so there's not much I can do for what I have left (2.5Kg for another batch). I will request them to be even more finely crushed for my next order. Does someone that does BIAB have a photo of what should it look like so I can forward it to them?

My LHBS ordered the malted oats specifically on my request, so I guess they don't have a lot of experience in handling them.

 

[royger]

Milling does look insufficient and is probably the main reason for the poor efficiency. You may also be getting poor conversion because there may not enough diastatic power (didn't crunch the numbers, but it looks like less than half the grist has any diastatic power at all.

DP was ~33, so borderline conversion. I should have mashed for a bit longer (60-90min) maybe, and it seems like the malted oats are not properly crushed.

 

[brew703]

You can always put your grains in a food processor to get them finer. I got tired of getting the evil eye when asking the HBS to double crush my grains. I ended up just getting a mill. Even a Corona mill will work but will take a long time to mill grains for a 5 lb batch. I've been double crushing my grains and that has helped some but I still miss my OG (not by much) when i use a odd bit of oat malt.

 

[FitForAPaul]

My attempt:
2 row 45%
Malted oats 30%
Flaked oats 20%
Carapils 5%
Citra mosaic Amarillo
Wyeast 1318

Still needs more carbonation but seems a little thinner than I wanted

 

[beervoid]

View attachment 682676
My attempt:
2 row 45%
Malted oats 30%
Flaked oats 20%
Carapils 5%
Citra mosaic Amarillo
Wyeast 1318

Still needs more carbonation but seems a little thinner than I wanted

Thin with 50% oats?? What was the fg and your water profile?

 

[FitForAPaul]

Thin with 50% oats?? What was the fg and your water profile?

I want to blame the carbonation because eits still carbonating and it was 1.013 and I was shooting for 1.020 lol. Water was 2:1 cl to sulfate

 

[beervoid]

I want to blame the carbonation because eits still carbonating and it was 1.013 and I was shooting for 1.020 lol. Water was 2:1 cl to sulfate

Oh thats quiet low, how much attenuation did you get? I would think it finish much higher with all the oats

 

[FitForAPaul]

Oh thats quiet low, how much attenuation did you get? I would think it finish much higher with all the oats

I'm probably just as shocked as you but 83%. I have a feeling Amarillo causes hop creep which I've heard from a head brewer at a local brewery. Ive used Amarillo 2 times and both times I've had high attenuation when used in dry hop

 

[beervoid]

I'm probably just as shocked as you but 83%. I have a feeling Amarillo causes hop creep which I've heard from a head brewer at a local brewery. Ive used Amarillo 2 times and both times I've had high attenuation when used in dry hop

Mash temp and pitch rate?

 

[Clyde McCoy]

I'm probably just as shocked as you but 83%. I have a feeling Amarillo causes hop creep which I've heard from a head brewer at a local brewery. Ive used Amarillo 2 times and both times I've had high attenuation when used in dry hop

I don't think any specific variety of hops cause hop creep. Hops + yeast causes hop creep...

 

[couchsending]

I don't think any specific variety of hops cause hop creep. Hops + yeast causes hop creep...

Certain varieties and harvest years are more prone to it than others. Certain lots of hops will be higher in the enzymes than others. Also has to do with kilning temps. Amarillo, Centennial, El Dorado are the ones specifically I’ve heard referenced quite a bit as more likely to cause it.

 

[FitForAPaul]

Mash temp and pitch rate?

Mash was 150 pitch idk exact rate but likely 1.2. I know it wasn't too much more than 1

 

[royger]

So this is my first attempt at this style. My efficiency sucked (48% instead of the expected 65%) so I ended up adding 500gr of dextrose at boil for a 2.5gal batch to bump the ABV to 6.4%. Beer still has mouthfeel and body due to the lactose, but it's missing some grain character IMO, probably due to the low conversion. Grain bill with the added dextrose is:

2.1 kg (38.9%) — Thomas Fawcett Pale Malt, Golden Promise — Grain — 5.9 EBC
2 kg (37%) — Castle Malting Chateau Oat Malt — Grain — 5 EBC
400 g (7.4%) — Wheat Unmalted — Grain — 3.2 EBC
150 g (2.8%) — Weyermann Munich I — Grain — 14 EBC
500 g (9.3%) — Corn Sugar (Dextrose) — Sugar — 0 EBC
250 g (4.6%) — Milk Sugar (Lactose) — Sugar — 0 EBC

Ca+2 114 Mg+ 24 Na+ 64 Cl- 250 SO4-2 63 HCO3- 22

4:1 Cl:SO ratio, on my next attempt I will likely try 3:1 Cl:SO ratio to see if it makes any difference.

Hopped with Cashmere and Sabro, approx using a 3:1 ratio (cashmere:sabro). I was expecting big coconut flavour but instead I got pineapple. A friend that tasted it even asked if there was real pineapple on the beer. Not bad at all.

I'm planning a new batch using Honey malt, in order to get some more color and malt flavour.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Trillium inspired hop bill on this one. It’s Columbus/Vic Secret.

So Im planning on taking a stab at this OatCreamIPA but using Columbus/Galaxy. I understand that Congress street uses all columbus on hot side and only 1.5oz of columbus and rest (~6oz) galaxy for the DH for a 5g batch- is that how you ran with this? ie vic secret in DH only with a touch of columbus in DH? Also wasn't sure if you put a dash of vic secret in WP or just used it exclusively in DH. Thanks.

 

[Frieds]

So Im planning on taking a stab at this OatCreamIPA but using Columbus/Galaxy. I understand that Congress street uses all columbus on hot side and only 1.5oz of columbus and rest (~6oz) galaxy for the DH for a 5g batch- is that how you ran with this? ie vic secret in DH only with a touch of columbus in DH? Also wasn't sure if you put a dash of vic secret in WP or just used it exclusively in DH. Thanks.

Not sure if this helps but i kegged one last weekend that was 75% Columbus 25% Rakau in the kettle and then all Mosaic/Citra/Rakau In the dry hop with just a touch of Columbus and the flavour was unreal. I think the way you’ve planned your recipe will be fine but if you added a touch of Galaxy to the whirlpool as well I can’t see it making the beer any less enjoyable.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Not sure if this helps but i kegged one last weekend that was 75% Columbus 25% Rakau in the kettle and then all Mosaic/Citra/Rakau In the dry hop with just a touch of Columbus and the flavour was unreal. I think the way you’ve planned your recipe will be fine but if you added a touch of Galaxy to the whirlpool as well I can’t see it making the beer any less enjoyable.

Thanks. Been prepping just now for this brew day tomorrow! Am doing mostly Columbus on hotside with a tiny late whirlpool addition of galaxy and in dryhop it’s flip flopped with BIg dose of galaxy and touch of Columbus. Excited!

 

[Fewer eyes]

Hey guys. Have scoured this thread in an attempt to recreate other half and new Zealand's garage projects 'no dreams till Brooklyn.' my local stores mill wont go fine enough to mill oat malt at all. Is it worth trying to brew with unmilled oatmalt? What kind of efficiency could I expect?

 

[Dgallo]

Hey guys. Have scoured this thread in an attempt to recreate other half and new Zealand's garage projects 'no dreams till Brooklyn.' my local stores mill wont go fine enough to mill oat malt at all. Is it worth trying to brew with unmilled oatmalt? What kind of efficiency could I expect?

I really hope you’re not messing with us with this question but if not here is your answer. Unless the whole kernels were mistakenly cracked, uncrushed grains won’t result in any sugars or proteins. Your better off running them through your blender or food processor

 

[Fewer eyes]

Errr *nervous laughter* yeah, joking. Nah I was serious, fairly new to brewing and guess I didn't think that question through entirely. Cheers.

 

[Dgallo]

Errr *nervous laughter* yeah, joking. Nah I was serious, fairly new to brewing and guess I didn't think that question through entirely. Cheers.

Sorry man. I most likely came off like a ****** and I sincerely apologize; recently I’ve seen people posting on here to troll.
Unless the grain husk is cracked, it is impermeable to water so you’ll yield very little at. Eat from the mash from those specific grains.

If you have a blender add about a pint of your mash water with the un crushed grains and rub it through a blender adding all contents to the top of your mash.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Errr *nervous laughter* yeah, joking. Nah I was serious, fairly new to brewing and guess I didn't think that question through entirely. Cheers.

Have you already brewed? If not go pick up some flaked oats(quick oats) from the grocery store. Yeah your efficiency will be horrible using unmilled malted oats. I use them a lot and get mediocre efficiency even when I mill them, unless I have my mill set really really tight.

 

[Dgallo]

Have you already brewed? If not go pick up some flaked oats(quick oats) from the grocery store. Yeah your efficiency will be horrible using unmilled malted oats. I use them a lot and get mediocre efficiency even when I mill them, unless I have my mill set really really tight.

But if he substitutes the 30% malted oats for flaked oats In the common recipes in this thread, he’s going to be in a mess of trouble with his running.

 

[Fewer eyes]

Yeah I'm using a grain father and have battled with even small quantities of flaked oats even with hulls. Just found a store that says their mill will crush oat malt for me so 50% oat malt grain bill coming up this weekend!

 

[VirginiaHops1]

But if he substitutes the 30% malted oats for flaked oats In the common recipes in this thread, he’s going to be in a mess of trouble with his running.

Stuck sparge? I do BIAB so I guess I take that kind of stuff for granted

 

[Dgallo]

Yeah I'm using a grain father and have battled with even small quantities of flaked oats even with hulls. Just found a store that says their mill will crush oat malt for me so 50% oat malt grain bill coming up this weekend!

Idk where you’re located but Great Fermentation crushes all small kernel grains. If you’re within their shipping limit, check them out.

 

[Dgallo]

Stuck sparge? I do BIAB so I guess I take that kind of stuff for granted

I do the same. I use a false bottom Run and always assume we are all using the same process

 

[Frieds]

Hey guys. Have scoured this thread in an attempt to recreate other half and new Zealand's garage projects 'no dreams till Brooklyn.' my local stores mill wont go fine enough to mill oat malt at all. Is it worth trying to brew with unmilled oatmalt? What kind of efficiency could I expect?

I Had the No Dreams Til’ Brooklyn. It was delicious. They used Citra & Nelson Sauvin in there. Did you get to try the Sunrise Valley recently?

 

[Fewer eyes]

Idk where you’re located but Great Fermentation crushes all small kernel grains. If you’re within their shipping limit, check them out.

Auckland, New Zealand so naah, probably out of range.

I Had the No Dreams Til’ Brooklyn. It was delicious. They used Citra & Nelson Sauvin in there. Did you get to try the Sunrise Valley recently?

Yeah I'll be using sauvin and citra. yeah i tried Garage project's sunrise (brewed in collaboration with trillium) but was disappointed, especially after the quality of their collaboration on "Hapi Session's: Aro Sreet." Sunrise valley fell short on mouthfeel and was a bit dry for this style for my liking

Haven't seen people mentioning Dextrose in this thread? Is that for fear of drying the beer out? Im going to struggle to get a high ABV on the grainfather as already maxing out its grain capacity. This "drying out" turn of phrase has always confused me though: You're not making the FG any lower, you're just raising the SG yeah? I thought i might drop a bit of dextrose in to bring it up to 7.5/8%. no?

 

[royger]

Haven't seen people mentioning Dextrose in this thread? Is that for fear of drying the beer out? Im going to struggle to get a high ABV on the grainfather as already maxing out its grain capacity. This "drying out" turn of phrase has always confused me though: You're not making the FG any lower, you're just raising the SG yeah? I thought i might drop a bit of dextrose in to bring it up to 7.5/8%. no?

I added dextrose on my first attempt because my efficiency sucked, so I added ~10% dextrose during boil (compared against the grain bill). I was using Wyeast 1318 and IMO the resulting beer was slightly hot which I didn't particularly like. People enjoyed it, but if I have to add dextrose again I would keep it at ~5%, and maybe consider using some kind of raw sugar instead.

 

[Dgallo]

This "drying out" turn of phrase has always confused me though: You're not making the FG any lower, you're just raising the SG yeah? I thought i might drop a bit of dextrose in to bring it up to 7.5/8%. no?

You will be bringing the fg down though.... this is how it depletes the body and drys the beer out. You are raising the og with a 100% fermentable sugar meaning it will be converted purely into alcohol without any complex sugars remaining from it. Pure alcohols gravity is 0.787 which is much lower than water at 1.000 and it will lower the FG and thin it out/dry it out compared too if it wasn’t used. The amount of sugar you use and the OG of the beer without the sugar factored in will determine how dry and thin it will get

 

[BeerFst]

You will be bringing the fg down though.... this is how it depletes the body and drys the beer out. You are raising the og with a 100% fermentable sugar meaning it will be converted purely into alcohol without any complex sugars remaining from it. Pure alcohols gravity is 0.787 which is much lower than water at 1.000 and it will lower the FG and thin it out/dry it out compared too if it wasn’t used. The amount of sugar you use and the OG of the beer without the sugar factored in will determine how dry and thin it will get

@Dgallo based on our other exchanges I’m sure your probably aware but what you are referring to real extract vs apparent extract. A sugar addition will not change the real extract but will change your apparent extract (as measured by your hydrometer).

I suppose one could make an arbitrary ratio of abv to real extract and compare a beer with sugar to one that’s grain only.

that said I think the alcohol provides significant sweetness to a beer independent of fg. despite being 50% oats I had a beer that under actuated to be something like 5.5% and 1.024(apparent extract). It didn’t nearly have the body that a previous 9% stout had that also finished at 1.024.
I think for these beers you need have the real extract in the mid 1.020, which sugar shouldn’t really impact.

all that said, the easy solution is to use malt extract or brewers crystals which are basically sugar but still has some I fermentable a in it

edit: I’m realizing just now I mangled my point and the 9% beer didn’t have the same real extract as the 5.5% so clearly it would be sweeter/more body. But I do think if I’d added some sugar to boost to 6.5-7 it would have improved the perceived body despite the real extract stating the same

 

[Dgallo]

edit: I’m realizing just now I mangled my point and the 9% beer didn’t have the same real extract as the 5.5% so clearly it would be sweeter/more body. But I do think if I’d added some sugar to boost to 6.5-7 it would have improved the perceived body despite the real extract stating the same

Was just going to point that out. However what I am saying is doesn’t really apply to the point your trying to make. What I’m getting at is tht the op can not get the abv he wants due to size constraints with the grain father. He wanted to know if he can use sugar to boost his og so that he hit the abv he wants. What I was informing him on that sure he can use it to get the abv there but this would not produce the same body or mouthfeel of a beer that used grain or DME to reach the same abv. The one done with sugar would be thinner in mouthfeel/body than the latter

 

[Frieds]

Was just going to point that out. However what I am saying is doesn’t really apply to the point your trying to make. What I’m getting at is tht the op can not get the abv he wants due to size constraints with the grain father. He wanted to know if he can use sugar to boost his og so that he hit the abv he wants. What I was informing him on that sure he can use it to get the abv there but this would not produce the same body or mouthfeel of a beer that used grain or DME to reach the same abv. The one done with sugar would be thinner in mouthfeel/body than the latter

Would you substitute dextrose for DME in this style to bump abv but still keep some body?

 

[Dgallo]

Would you substitute dextrose for DME in this style to bump abv but still keep some body?

Exactly what I would do if I was in that situation. Bavarian wheat DME is a good choice because it’s made from 2 parts Pilsner malt and 1 part wheat malt