Other Half Daydream (oat cream IPAs) - all grain clone attempts

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Jesse Runowski

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I think some answers might be found in this podcast Variation in Starch Structure
"Did you know that the gelatinization temperature of your malt could be as low as 136F or as high as 154F? Charlie Bamforth's successor joins us to talk about variations in starch structure and what that might mean for your mash."
I'll give this a listen, thanks!
 

ronniescouten

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brewing our version of this next weekend and going to make an attempt at steeping some flaked oats in the HLT for the sparge. anyone try this? wondering how long and at what temp? thinking like 163 for 20 minutes before sparging
 

Jesse Runowski

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I haven't had a chance to try that yet but it's on my things to try list ever since I saw OH doing it. I think thats a good temp and time, what amount were you thinking? I was thinking about doing 1lb at 168 for 20 mins.

Keep us posted and let us know how it turns out!
 

edfletch21

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Planning on trying this style out this weekend after reading a lot of information here. Had a question about ph adjustment before fermentation. I have read a few posts on this on adjusting to a ph around 4.6 as it goes into the fermenter. Is this something that is done regularly, or should i not worry about ph after the mash?

3 gallon batch
Recipe:
OG 1.082
Mash 152F
ABV~8.6%

S-04 11g packet

62% 2-Row
20% Flaked Oats
8% Golden Naked Oats
2.5% Honey Malt
2.5% Cara-Pils
5% Dextrose

21 IBU at 30 min

Whirlpool for 15 min:
1 oz Citra
.5 oz Amarillo
.5 oz Rakau

Dry Hop 1:
.5 oz Citra
1 oz Amarillo
.5 oz Rakau

Dry Hop 2:
1.5 oz Citra
1.5 oz Amarillo
1 oz Rakau

98 Ca
41 Na
240 Cl
52 SO4
 

BeerFst

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Planning on trying this style out this weekend after reading a lot of information here. Had a question about ph adjustment before fermentation. I have read a few posts on this on adjusting to a ph around 4.6 as it goes into the fermenter. Is this something that is done regularly, or should i not worry about ph after the mash?

3 gallon batch
Recipe:
OG 1.082
Mash 152F
ABV~8.6%

S-04 11g packet

62% 2-Row
20% Flaked Oats
8% Golden Naked Oats
2.5% Honey Malt
2.5% Cara-Pils
5% Dextrose

21 IBU at 30 min

Whirlpool for 15 min:
1 oz Citra
.5 oz Amarillo
.5 oz Rakau

Dry Hop 1:
.5 oz Citra
1 oz Amarillo
.5 oz Rakau

Dry Hop 2:
1.5 oz Citra
1.5 oz Amarillo
1 oz Rakau

98 Ca
41 Na
240 Cl
52 SO4
There are certainly some homebrewers that do adjust pre ferm, but it is not a must. I would say the vast majority are not doing it. It is probably more common at the professional level though. There was a comment on the Average NEIPA thread about adjusting your sparge closer to your mash pH instead of the minimum amount to knock out your alkalinity. This would sere a similar purpose to adjusting post boil, but more of an approximation
 

BeerFst

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I haven't had a chance to try that yet but it's on my things to try list ever since I saw OH doing it. I think thats a good temp and time, what amount were you thinking? I was thinking about doing 1lb at 168 for 20 mins.

Keep us posted and let us know how it turns out!
where did you see OH doing it? on an IG story? do you have a link?
 

edfletch21

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There are certainly some homebrewers that do adjust pre ferm, but it is not a must. I would say the vast majority are not doing it. It is probably more common at the professional level though. There was a comment on the Average NEIPA thread about adjusting your sparge closer to your mash pH instead of the minimum amount to knock out your alkalinity. This would sere a similar purpose to adjusting post boil, but more of an approximation
Great thanks for the info! I usually do not sparge, so maybe adjusting post boil will be the best bet for me. I have missed the mark on NEIPAs and am really looking for any areas to improve the final product.
 

BeerFst

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Great thanks for the info! I usually do not sparge, so maybe adjusting post boil will be the best bet for me. I have missed the mark on NEIPAs and am really looking for any areas to improve the final product.
the intent of adjusting your sparge to mash pH was to keep the total pre boil around the same as your mash pH, lets say 5.3 for sake of argument. I believe my brunwater settings are for a pH of 6 on my sparge water. doing this would likely increase by total collected worts pH compared to 5.3 if all my water was adjusted to that.

If you are doing no sparge, or BIAB, then your total collected preboil wort is already at your mash pH, you have already reached the goal the comment from the other thread intended. you are already approximating a lower boil pH than someone who sparges with 6.0. It's not so much if it is better for you or not, but rather keeping the same process you already follow or trying something new.

I think i might have overcomplicated all these. please adjust post boil and report results! will be interesting
 

Jesse Runowski

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where did you see OH doing it? on an IG story? do you have a link?
IG story, I posted on here on the 21st about it. My post has my screen shot of their story.
 

Dgallo

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There are certainly some homebrewers that do adjust pre ferm, but it is not a must. I would say the vast majority are not doing it. It is probably more common at the professional level though. There was a comment on the Average NEIPA thread about adjusting your sparge closer to your mash pH instead of the minimum amount to knock out your alkalinity. This would sere a similar purpose to adjusting post boil, but more of an approximation
Why are they pre acidifying post boil for 4.6?

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t that solely for reducing the possibility of off flavored spoilage bacteria to grow. This is what I would do for wild ales or spontaneous fermentation’s.

I’ve heard on post dryhop ph manipulation to specifically target ph that the brewer believes that their beers drink the best. Which would make far more sense. Unless I’m miss some information on the topic
 

BeerFst

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Why are they pre acidifying post boil for 4.6?

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t that solely for reducing the possibility of off flavored spoilage bacteria to grow. This is what I would do for wild ales or spontaneous fermentation’s.

I’ve heard on post dryhop ph manipulation to specifically target ph that the brewer believes that their beers drink the best. Which would make far more sense. Unless I’m miss some information on the topic
sorry, wasn't addressing the value, rather the practice of adjusting post boil (which I dont do). I do recall reading someting about pH and haze stability, which was noted above in the original question, but i don't recall the value there.

I couldn't find the sparge post i just mentioned, but i feel like it was pretty recent. I did find a couple mentions, from yourself including, about targeting ~5 for KO pH.
 

kvnc

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New here, but the thread was so helpful, I figured Id share what I did to maybe help someone else. I ended up adding some flaked oats (2.3%) at the end of the mash (last 15min) after seeing that OH post. My sparges go fairly quick, so I wanted to add it in there for a bit. Not sure if it made a huge difference, but this is quite a hazy beer, even after conditioning at 28F. Pretty thick body too, although the FG is 1.021, and I used lactose, so there are a few variables. Probably gonna keep this base recipe for hazies tho, I dig how it turned out. Only potential issue is that I got insane attenuation. I was expecting a FG closer to 1.026. Full disclosure, never had an other half beer so Im flying blind here haha

fullsizeoutput_1db.jpeg

Original Gravity: 1.090
Final Gravity: 1.021
ABV (standard): 9.09%

FERMENTABLES:
10 lb - Pale 2-Row (46.5%)
4.25 lb - Flaked Oats (19.8%)
5.75 lb - Oat Malt (26.7%)
1 lb - Lactose (Milk Sugar) (4.7%)
0.5 lb - Flaked Oats - (late addition) (2.3%)

HOPS:
0.3 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 13.4, Use: Boil for 30 min,
1.5 oz - Cashmere, Type: Pellet, AA: 9.2, Use: Hop Stand for 25 min, 175F
1.8 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 13.4, Use: Hop Stand for 25 min, 175F
2 oz - hbc 586, Type: Pellet, AA: 13, Use: Hop Stand for 25 min,175F
2 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 13.4, Use: Dry Hop (High Krausen)
1.5 oz - Cashmere, Type: Pellet, AA: 9.2, Use: Dry Hop (High Krausen)
1 oz - hbc 586, Type: Pellet, AA: 13, Use: Dry Hop (High Krausen)
4 oz - hbc 586, Type: Pellet, AA: 13, Use: Dry Hop for 2 days
2.8 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 13.4, Use: Dry Hop for 2 days
2.5 oz - Cashmere, Type: Pellet, AA: 9.2, Use: Dry Hop for 2 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Strike, Temp: 156 F, Time: 60 min,
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.5 qt/lb
3ml 88% lactic acid to mash

YEAST:
Imperial Yeast - A38 Juice
Pitch Rate: 1.0 (M cells / ml / deg P)

TARGET WATER PROFILE:
Ca2: 121
Mg2: 0
Na: 9
Cl: 222
SO4: 7
HCO3: 0

pitched at 68F, fermented at 70F
first dry hop on day 2 at 70F
day 3 temp up to 72F
down to 58F at day 11 (after final gravity was stable for 3 days). Soft crash for 1 day
2nd dry hop on day 12
day 13 started crash like 1/2 through the day, by end of day temp was down to 35F
pulled hop sludge every evening for the next 2 days
took er down to 28F on day 16
kegged day 17 (closed transfer)
condition at 28F in keg ~1week
serve at 38F

This recipe has been published online at:
 
Last edited:

kvnc

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Looks great! I've been wanting to try late addition oats since I saw that IG story. Going to try it out tomorrow.
Thanks man! Let me know how it turns out. And yeah Im not sure if late addition oats actually contributed to the body or not, but I am fairly happy with the body of this beer. I sort of messed with too many variables to say for sure. Im probably gonna do it again bc I dont think it hurt anything haha.
 

BeerFst

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I think it’s the 10 pounds of oats not the half pound in the sparge that is helping. Also keep in mind that 1.021 is the apparent final gravity, as the alcohol is lighter. So a 9% beer at 1.021 has more residual sugar than a 6% beer at the same apparent gravity.
Also the alcohol itself is going to be perceived as sweetness which is probably helping too
 

kvnc

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I think it’s the 10 pounds of oats not the half pound in the sparge that is helping. Also keep in mind that 1.021 is the apparent final gravity, as the alcohol is lighter. So a 9% beer at 1.021 has more residual sugar than a 6% beer at the same apparent gravity.
Also the alcohol itself is going to be perceived as sweetness which is probably helping too
haha yeah thats fair. Like I said, I have no idea if it did anything or not. Thats a interesting point about the apparent final gravity though, guess I never thought of that. Thats probably a huge reason my higher OG beers usually have better mouth feel regardless. Thanks for the help man!
 

BeerFst

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haha yeah thats fair. Like I said, I have no idea if it did anything or not. Thats a interesting point about the apparent final gravity though, guess I never thought of that. Thats probably a huge reason my higher OG beers usually have better mouth feel regardless. Thanks for the help man!
I definitely think that’s a big component.
I’ve done 50%+ oat beers that under attenuated and body wasn’t there. My next hazy is 7+ but 50% wheat.
 

codysorgenfrey

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64F5986B-75E1-4665-9E4F-6B529EAF46DF.jpeg


Brewed this last month. So far it's been in the keg for 9 days. It does have a small amount of hop burn, but I'm hopeful this will subside. Other than that it's an amazing beer! Very fruity aroma and well rounded body.

Let me know if you have any suggestions on how to control the hop burn any further! I did use a soft crash this brew (first time) and I felt like it helped compared to other heavily dry hopped NEIPAs I've done without one.


Other Half Daydream
New England IPA
5.6% / 16.9 °P

70% efficiency
Batch Volume: 5 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
Mash Water: 4.93 gal
Sparge Water: 3.19 gal / 4.19 gal HLT water @ 168 °F
Total Water: 9.12 gal
Boil Volume: 7.25 gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.055

Vitals
Original Gravity: 1.069
Final Gravity: 1.026
IBU (Tinseth): 65
Color: 3.8 SRM

Mash
Strike Temp — 169 °F
Sach Rest — 157 °F60 min
Mash Out — 168 °F10 min

Malts (12 lb 2.4 oz)
7 lb 4.8 oz (51.6%) — Great Western Brewer's Malt, 2-Row, Premium — Grain — 2 °L
2 lb 9.6 oz (18.4%) — Briess Oats, Flaked — Grain — 1.6 °L
1 lb 4 oz (8.8%) — Briess Wheat White Malt — Grain — 2.3 °L
1 lb (7.1%) — Carafoam — Grain — 2 °L

Other (2 lb)
1 lb (7.1%) — Milk Sugar (Lactose) — Sugar — 0 °L — Flameout
1 lb (7.1%) — Briess Rice Hulls — Adjunct — 0 °L

Hops (12 oz)
0.5 oz (20 IBU) — Citra 12% — First Wort
1.5 oz (25 IBU) — Citra 12% — Boil — 10 min
4 oz
(20 IBU) — Citra 12% — Aroma — 30 min hopstand
3 oz
— Citra 12% — Dry Hop — day 4
3 oz
— Citra 12% — Dry Hop — day 8

Miscs
8.3 g — Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) — Mash
3.2 g
— Epsom Salt (MgSO4) — Mash
3.2 g
— Gypsum (CaSO4) — Mash
3.8 ml
— Lactic Acid 80% — Mash

Yeast
1 pkg — Wyeast Labs 1318 London Ale III 75%

Fermentation
Primary — 68 °F6 days
Primary — 72 °F2 days
Primary — 58 °F5 days
Primary — 32 °F2 days
Carbonation: 2.4 CO2-vol
 

cheesebach

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Going back to the late oats addition from the IG story - do we know whether they're being added after some sort of higher temp mash out step? Given how opaque some of the high oat content OH beers can be, I don't think it would be out of the realm of possibility for the late addition to be adding starches for the purpose of adding "haze". I made a very hazy oatmeal stout back in the day with an extract kit that had me steep the oats as if they were a specialty grain that didn't require a mash. The beer tasted good, but looked like nasty mud water. I'm still struggling to achieve that really full/thick mouthfeel that OH hazies typically have, so wondering whether this could actually be part of their "secret".
 

skibb

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Going back to the late oats addition from the IG story - do we know whether they're being added after some sort of higher temp mash out step? Given how opaque some of the high oat content OH beers can be, I don't think it would be out of the realm of possibility for the late addition to be adding starches for the purpose of adding "haze". I made a very hazy oatmeal stout back in the day with an extract kit that had me steep the oats as if they were a specialty grain that didn't require a mash. The beer tasted good, but looked like nasty mud water. I'm still struggling to achieve that really full/thick mouthfeel that OH hazies typically have, so wondering whether this could actually be part of their "secret".
Yeah I'm not quite sure either - the oat's starches have to be converted to be fermentable and if you are throwing them in at sparge, I don't see that happening. Starch in beer is generally a 'no-no' but these beers are designed to be consumed fairly fresh.
 

ronniescouten

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I haven't had a chance to try that yet but it's on my things to try list ever since I saw OH doing it. I think thats a good temp and time, what amount were you thinking? I was thinking about doing 1lb at 168 for 20 mins.

Keep us posted and let us know how it turns out!
right on- thinking 165 for 20 mins with 1lb of flaked oats in a bag. we'll see- brewing friday. stay tuned!
 

kvnc

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have any of you guys blown the 255 bucks at yakima and tried incognito yet? If so, what did you think about it/ how did you use it?
 

edfletch21

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Finally got to try this beer. Tastes like candied orange with a ton of fruit. Tried the same recipe swapping oat malt for the flaked oats to see what the difference is. Also went with kveik instead of s-04. No signs of oxidation even though it's been bottled for a month.
 

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TBryerton

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Finally got to try this beer. Tastes like candied orange with a ton of fruit. Tried the same recipe swapping oat malt for the flaked oats to see what the difference is. Also went with kveik instead of s-04. No signs of oxidation even though it's been bottled for a month.
Opinion of oat malt vs flaked?
 

TravelingLight

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Sorry if it's buried in this thread and I missed it, but...did anyone get any concrete info on how much (if any) lactose OH is using in the oat cream beers? Or is it just a **** load (50%+) malted oats?
 

beervoid

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Sorry if it's buried in this thread and I missed it, but...did anyone get any concrete info on how much (if any) lactose OH is using in the oat cream beers? Or is it just a **** load (50%+) malted oats?
I calculated it from the brewsheet and came to about 5%
 

TravelingLight

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I brewed this (12 gal batch) on Sunday... (notes below recipe on why I made certain changes)

52.5% Pale (mostly 2-Row with some Pils mixed in, i.e., using up some smaller amounts I've had sitting around)
30% Malted Oats
7.5% White Wheat
7.5% Light Munich
2.5% C10

1 oz Citra @ FO
6 oz Idaho 7 @ 180* WP, 60m
3 oz Citra @ 180* WP, 60m

154* Mash Temp

OG: 1.073

Yeast: Bootleg NEEPAH

Dry Hops: (split this into two fermenters)
Batch A: all Citra (double dry hopped, and a keg hop)
Batch B: Mosaic and Idaho 7 (double dry hopped, and a keg hop)

Back in my earlier days of brewing NEIPAs, I used a small amount of Light Munich for color and a little flavor. And I'm not entirely sure why I ended up dropping it at some point along the way. Fast forward to now that I've been using 40-50% malted oats, I haven't been super happy with the color. It's all personal preference, but I prefer mine to lean slightly orange, more like Sunny D. And with a grist of only pale, malted oats, and wheat, my SRM stayed in the 4 range, depending on the pale/base malt I used. And the malted oats make it so damn thicc, it just didn't look as visually appealing as I wanted it to. But I love the body and mouthfeel from the heavy oats.

So I'm trying this one out. Dialing the oats back to 30% to hopefully still have great body and haze, but not quite so damn thick. The C10 and Light Munich was added to get me into the 6 SRM range, which should get me closer to that orange glow I want.

And I finally seemed to have dialed in my crush and efficiency numbers for these heavy malted oat beers. Granted, the previous ones had a higher percentage of malted oats, but this is the first one where I actually overshot (barely) my OG.
 

Nick Poggetti

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Back in my earlier days of brewing NEIPAs, I used a small amount of Light Munich for color and a little flavor. And I'm not entirely sure why I ended up dropping it at some point along the way. Fast forward to now that I've been using 40-50% malted oats, I haven't been super happy with the color. It's all personal preference, but I prefer mine to lean slightly orange, more like Sunny D. And with a grist of only pale, malted oats, and wheat, my SRM stayed in the 4 range, depending on the pale/base malt I used. And the malted oats make it so damn thicc, it just didn't look as visually appealing as I wanted it to. But I love the body and mouthfeel from the heavy oats.

So I'm trying this one out. Dialing the oats back to 30% to hopefully still have great body and haze, but not quite so damn thick. The C10 and Light Munich was added to get me into the 6 SRM range, which should get me closer to that orange glow I want.
I'm in the same boat with the colors of my NEIPAs - I like it borderline rich yellow, just tetering into that orange range. I use Golden Naked Oats for color and flavor... Give it a shot next go around! I do prefer it very very slightly more orange, but the point remains the same.

resized_20201210_134714-4.jpeg
 

TravelingLight

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I'm in the same boat with the colors of my NEIPAs - I like it borderline rich yellow, just tetering into that orange range. I use Golden Naked Oats for color and flavor... Give it a shot next go around! I do prefer it very very slightly more orange, but the point remains the same.

View attachment 724027
Beautiful. That's what I like right there. I've used GNO once or twice and it was fine. I think I didn't really use it enough to really dial it in. And years ago I had the Light Munich really dialed in so I wanted to go back to what has worked before.

Oh, I also dropped the post-boil on this batch to 4.6 before going in the fermenter.
 

Nick Poggetti

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Beautiful. That's what I like right there. I've used GNO once or twice and it was fine. I think I didn't really use it enough to really dial it in. And years ago I had the Light Munich really dialed in so I wanted to go back to what has worked before.

Oh, I also dropped the post-boil on this batch to 4.6 before going in the fermenter.
The grain bill on that one was 43/43/5/9% of 2row/malted oats/white wheat/gno respectively. That was my best looking NEIPA by a long shot, too.
 

TravelingLight

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I brewed this (12 gal batch) on Sunday... (notes below recipe on why I made certain changes)

52.5% Pale (mostly 2-Row with some Pils mixed in, i.e., using up some smaller amounts I've had sitting around)
30% Malted Oats
7.5% White Wheat
7.5% Light Munich
2.5% C10

1 oz Citra @ FO
6 oz Idaho 7 @ 180* WP, 60m
3 oz Citra @ 180* WP, 60m

154* Mash Temp

OG: 1.073

Yeast: Bootleg NEEPAH

Dry Hops: (split this into two fermenters)
Batch A: all Citra (double dry hopped, and a keg hop)
Batch B: Mosaic and Idaho 7 (double dry hopped, and a keg hop)

Back in my earlier days of brewing NEIPAs, I used a small amount of Light Munich for color and a little flavor. And I'm not entirely sure why I ended up dropping it at some point along the way. Fast forward to now that I've been using 40-50% malted oats, I haven't been super happy with the color. It's all personal preference, but I prefer mine to lean slightly orange, more like Sunny D. And with a grist of only pale, malted oats, and wheat, my SRM stayed in the 4 range, depending on the pale/base malt I used. And the malted oats make it so damn thicc, it just didn't look as visually appealing as I wanted it to. But I love the body and mouthfeel from the heavy oats.

So I'm trying this one out. Dialing the oats back to 30% to hopefully still have great body and haze, but not quite so damn thick. The C10 and Light Munich was added to get me into the 6 SRM range, which should get me closer to that orange glow I want.

And I finally seemed to have dialed in my crush and efficiency numbers for these heavy malted oat beers. Granted, the previous ones had a higher percentage of malted oats, but this is the first one where I actually overshot (barely) my OG.
Kegged this one Monday evening and did my standard quick/burst carb overnight. Still wasn't where it needed to be last night, so it's sitting on 30 psi until this afternoon. Color looks great and the nose and everything else is where I want it. I'll share pics when it's fully carbed. But feels good to get out of my NEIPA slump. These are the first ones I've been really happy with in quite a while.
 

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Anyone have success with a high protein grist NEIPA using S04? I keep rotating that yeast into my brewing schedule, but I’m getting a plastic flavor from it that I can’t stand. Same beer with something like LA3 and it’s nowhere to be found. It doesn’t seem to show up until late in the game, after I dry hop, but while it’s still in the conical. I’ve used different hops in each of the last two beers where this has shown up. One was heavy on flaked oats. The second was very heavy white wheat. I’ve noticed this is some commercial beers as well - wondering what causes it.
 

kvnc

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To answer the first question, no. I personally haven't enjoyed the beers that I made with S-04 so I stopped using it a while ago. Never got the plastic thing from it though. Im sure some people use it successfully, just was never as good as LAIII for me. Given that the same beer with different yeast is fine, Im guessing it has to do with pitch rates/ fermentation temps. It sounds like the yeast is creating undesirable phenols. Could be in a higher protein content beer that the polyphenols are interacting with the protein, like in a normal hazy, and ur just suspending bad phenols haha. Sort of made that up, but makes sense to me.
 
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