New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[wepeeler]

If you don’t use a malted grain with the flaked stuff, none of it will get converted into sugar, it will stay Starch

I just used it for haze

 

[CascadesBrewer]

do you have a written ratios?
did you also steep the oats? what kind did you use? I have made some research but couldn't find any conclusive data on how to deal with oats in extract brewing

I have played around with making extract based hazy IPAs and Pale Ales...though with limited success. You could go something like a 50/50 blend of Pils DME and Wheat DME (I believe Briess Wheat DME is 65% Wheat and 35% Barley). It is not a bad solution for a easy extract based beer.

I did brew a version of the Brave Noise Pale Ale recipe where I steeped some flaked oats and flaked wheat. It actually turned out better than I expected. In theory the beer would be very "starchy" and which might lead to shelf life issues and haze. I found that the steeped flaked grains added to the body and mouthfeel. Also, I did not have to worry about bottles sitting on grocery shelfs for a month and it is a style that should be hazy. Also, this was a sub 4.5% beer where extra body was welcome.

In theory a partial mash is your best option. You can use malted wheat to provide the enzymes for conversion. That is what I did for a split batch of the Brave Noise Pale Ale recipe. The second batch I did a partial mash with Malted Wheat and Flaked Oats. As expected, I got higher gravity (since starches were actually converted into sugars in the partial mash).

 

[ahayuval]

I have played around with making extract based hazy IPAs and Pale Ales...though with limited success. You could go something like a 50/50 blend of Pils DME and Wheat DME (I believe Briess Wheat DME is 65% Wheat and 35% Barley). It is not a bad solution for a easy extract based beer.

I did brew a version of the Brave Noise Pale Ale recipe where I steeped some flaked oats and flaked wheat. It actually turned out better than I expected. In theory the beer would be very "starchy" and which might lead to shelf life issues and haze. I found that the steeped flaked grains added to the body and mouthfeel. Also, I did not have to worry about bottles sitting on grocery shelfs for a month and it is a style that should be hazy. Also, this was a sub 4.5% beer where extra body was welcome.

In theory a partial mash is your best option. You can use malted wheat to provide the enzymes for conversion. That is what I did for a split batch of the Brave Noise Pale Ale recipe. The second batch I did a partial mash with Malted Wheat and Flaked Oats. As expected, I got higher gravity (since starches were actually converted into sugars in the partial mash).

That's sounds like a good idea. I didn't look after a "no boil" or short period of cook, I just don't have the equipment to mash several lbs.
What I understand is the best option is to steep for roughly 30
mins the oats and the malted wheat , which will act as a "partial mash"

 

[CascadesBrewer]

What I understand is the best option is to steep for roughly 30
mins the oats and the malted wheat , which will act as a "partial mash"

There are a couple things that are important with a partial mash vs a steep. For a mash, you want to keep the temps of the mix in the 150F to 155F range for about 30 minutes (where steeping only needs to be in warm water). I would also pay some attention to the mash thickness. Around 0.5 gals of water per lb of grain should work fine. (Sorry if you don't work in Imperial units.) Water chemistry and mash pH can have some impact as well, but it should be fine as long as you are using somewhat normal water.

 

[InspectorJon]

The steeping step with Pilsner malt is a mini-mash. I looked around and malted oats has some diastatic power but likely not enough to convert completely on its own. If one wanted to just steep/mash pure oats then you could use some amylase enzyme in the mash. Keep the temperature down so as not to deactivate the enzymes.

 

[Dgallo]

That's sounds like a good idea. I didn't look after a "no boil" or short period of cook, I just don't have the equipment to mash several lbs.
What I understand is the best option is to steep for roughly 30
mins the oats and the malted wheat , which will act as a "partial mash"

You’ll find some info in this thread. Lots of the recipes are dme only
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/blasphemy-no-boil-neipa.660389/

 

[Apmarand]

Curious if anyone has done extensive crashing (in duration) or fining PRIOR to dry hopping? I’m thinking to try a week long cold crash following TG and VDK to get out as much yeast and suspended proteins as possible prior to the DH charges. My current experiment is playing with gradient dry hop temps; start at 62F and lower to 50F over two days. I DDH and did this for both charges. I can provide an update for those interested.

But next I am planning on extra long crashing prior to dry hopping bc the yeast doesn’t completely floc, even after 36-48hrs at 50F (OYL-405). Maybe someone has tried this already and can save me the trouble (I’ve read every single page of this thread, that **** took forever).

 

[ahayuval]

I actually make a fair amount of dme NEIPAS.

3 lbs - Pilsen lite dme
3 lbs - Bavarian Wheat DME
Steep at 155-160*f for 30 mins
2 lbs Pilsner malt crushed (you need this for conversion of the oats)
2 lbs flaked oats or crushed malted oats

Then hop it as you would for the recipe

are those numbers for 5 gal batch?

 

[Dgallo]

are those numbers for 5 gal batch?

Yes. For roughly a 6.5-7% abv beer with 5.5 gallons going into the fermenter. Could always bump the Pilsner lite dme if you want a bigger og

 

[daygobrewer]

I actually make a fair amount of dme NEIPAS.

3 lbs - Pilsen lite dme
3 lbs - Bavarian Wheat DME
Steep at 155-160*f for 30 mins
2 lbs Pilsner malt crushed (you need this for conversion of the oats)
2 lbs flaked oats or crushed malted oats

Then hop it as you would for the recipe

What does your hop schedule and dosing look like for this recipe?

 

[Dgallo]

What does your hop schedule and dosing look like for this recipe?

4 oz in whirlpool @180-185 *f (while your pasteurizing)

8 oz dryhop for 48 hours after dropping yeast.

 

[daygobrewer]

4 oz in whirlpool @180-185 *f (while your pasteurizing)

8 oz dryhop for 48 hours after dropping yeast.

That's for T90 pellets?

 

[Hannabrew]

Anybody overbuild starters with a24? I'm concerned that the diastic traits of the combo will alter the balance over time so I'm thinking it's not a good idea.

 

[BeerFst]

Anybody overbuild starters with a24? I'm concerned that the diastic traits of the combo will alter the balance over time so I'm thinking it's not a good idea.

Yes, just don't decant them. If you build to 2L, save 500ml of that and pitch the 1500ml into your wort. make sure its well mixed before you pour off what you intend to save. You should never really be decanting A24 cause the sacc trois is less flocculent than the conan portion. decanting will always select the conan over the sacc in multiple generations.

 

[Dgallo]

That's for T90 pellets?

For the whirlpool yes. For dryhop you could do t45 and t90 if you want. Like 5 oz t90 3 oz t45 or really any combo you like. I like about 50/50 or 60/40, t90 to t45 for dryhopping

 

[daygobrewer]

For the whirlpool yes. For dryhop you could do t45 and t90 if you want. Like 5 oz t90 3 oz t45 or really any combo you like. I like about 50/50 or 60/40, t90 to t45 for dryhopping

Would you still shoot for 8 oz if you were only using T90 in the dry hop? Or would you bump it up?

 

[tracer bullet]

For the whirlpool yes. For dryhop you could do t45 and t90 if you want. Like 5 oz t90 3 oz t45 or really any combo you like. I like about 50/50 or 60/40, t90 to t45 for dryhopping

Interesting. I figured the t45 type would be the way to go for dry. Is it too much of a good thing where you feel that some t90 flavors are lacking?

I've brewed a ton of beer but very few NEIPA's so I'm always reading this thread and learning what I can for the next ones.

 

[Dgallo]

Interesting. I figured the t45 type would be the way to go for dry. Is it too much of a good thing where you feel that some t90 flavors are lacking?

I've brewed a ton of beer but very few NEIPA's so I'm always reading this thread and learning what I can for the next ones.

There’s a flavor that you get from t90 that’s great that you don’t get from cryo. Don’t get me wrong, I love cryo,specifically LUPOMAX. It’s great for a bright pop of the specific variety but doesn’t have the depth I’m looking for alone

 

[Dgallo]

Would you still shoot for 8 oz if you were only using T90 in the dry hop? Or would you bump it up?

All depends on your equipment and if you can minimize o2. Try both ways and see which you perfer. Like I noted above. Cryo is great and has its place but it’s not a stand alone for me in an ipa

 

[daygobrewer]

All depends on your equipment and if you can minimize o2. Try both ways and see which you perfer. Like I noted above. Cryo is great and has its place but it’s not a stand alone for me in an ipa

O2 has been limited. I've been fermenting, dry hopping, and serving from a single keg. Haven't been able to notice a difference between 8oz of T90 dry hop vs 12oz of T90 dry hop. I'm planning on using two kegs next time. Fermenting in one, and then transferring, dry hopping, and serving from the other. I'm hoping there will be better contact between the beer and hops when doing a closed transfer, as opposed to pouring the hops directly on top of the beer (as I have been).

 

[ihavenonickname]

I was brave enough to put my latest hazy head to head with a fresh can from Monkish - Life is Foggier. It was a fun comparison bc they were similar ABVs and used mostly the same hops - nelson galaxy citra (mine had strata too).

Overall the beers are incredibly similar, huge win for me!
Monkish color was a bit more orange and dense. The head on mine lingered significatly better.
Aromawise, mine leaned much brighter sweet tropical fruit and citrus. Monkish was had the overripe note that leaned savory herb and onion. I did a small blind pour taste test to 8 family members (not huge beer people, but wine and foodie types). 6 of them preferred my aroma by far. The two that liked monkish more didn't get any of the off putting onion garlic and just got more pungent tropical fruit. Definitely showed me how unique an individuals pallate can be and how differently we experience the beers.
Flavor wise monkish was more green/astringent (can was 5 weeks old), my keg is more like 10 weeks) that left a tongue drying effect (I'd call this a pleasent light hop burn.) Monkish had a clear thicker chewier mouth feel and lower carb. As it warmed the onion faded to more fruit leather and stone fruit that mine doesn't have.
I would guess Monkish dry hopped at about double my rate (2oz/gal) and that it finished a litter higher (maybe 1.018-1.020?) Accounting for the big mouthfeel and harshness.

My takeaway is this is confirmation we are all capable of making hazies on the same level of the best in the world! There are differences as you continue to increase the dry hop rates (to these absurd levels), but it doesn't necessarily increase aroma or make it better. That said it makes me want to play around with even higher dry hop rates, higher FG and probably some dry hop agitation for more extraction.

edit for images

 

[Apmarand]

I haven't contributed much, so here's my latest:

Ectopic Frequency NEIPA
OG: 1.070
FG: 1.012
ABV: 7.6%

Grain Bill
16 lbs Pale 2-row (76%)
4 lbs Spelt malt (19%)
0.5 lb Carafoam (2.5%)
0.5 lb Golden naked oats (2.5%)

Water
RO
Ca 86
Mg 21
Na 8
Cl 146
SO4 141
Mash pH = 5.2 (adjusted from 5.35)
Knock out pH = 5.0 (adjusted from 5.2)

Mash Hops
5 oz Cascade

Boil Hops
1 oz CTZ 10 min
1 oz CTZ 5 min
1 oz CTZ 0 min

Whirlpool
2 oz Citra @ 175F 45 min
1 oz Mosaic LUPOMAX @ 175F 45 min
1 oz Citra LUPOMAX @160F 30 min
2 oz Mosaic @ 160F 30 min

Yeast
OYL-405 (~400 billion cells) – overbuilt starter. Pitched 2L (out of 5L) fermented for 18 hrs.
This yeast will climb out of your flask…

Dry Hops Charge #1
1 oz Citra
1 oz Citra LUPOMAX
1 oz Mosaic
1 oz Mosaic LUPOMAX
1 oz Vic Secret

Dry Hops Charge #2
1.5 oz Citra LUPOMAX
1.5 oz Mosaic LUPOMAX
1 oz Citra
1 oz Mosaic
2 oz Vic Secret

Hot-side
A bit about my process. I added mash hops about 5 minutes after mashing in. I BIAB with HERMs using my CFC, 2 pumps (whirlpool and autosparge returns) and a 1650W element to do a stepped mash, 146F for 30 min, 160F for 30 min. Raw dog all kettle/whirlpool hops. 50 minute boil on propane.

Cold-side
Pitched 66F, let free-rise to 74F, about 48hrs after pitching. Naturally came down to 72F, where I held it until passed VDK test (6 days of fermentation). Soft crash to 50F for 48hrs. Drop yeast. Raise temp back to 62F. Purge dry hop charge 1 with CO2 (in a dry hopper), add purged hops. Recirculate 5x (30 sec over recirculation) over 24 hrs. Dropped temp to 50F, recirculate 5x (30 sec intervals) for 12 hrs. Let hops settle over 12 hrs. Drop charge 1. Raise temp back to 62F. Purge and add dry hop charge 2. Burp with CO2 from the cone twice a day (24 hrs). Lower temp to 50F, resuspended with CO2 from cone twice. Cold crash to 38F for 48 hrs. Drop dry hops once a day. Closed loop transfer to fermentation-purged cornie kegs. I use a bouncer mac daddy inline filter to ensure no suspended particles, not really an issue with my process anymore.

Evaluation
Head is tight AF. Mouthfeel drinks like a stout, which I attribute to the use of Spelt + step mashing (mostly this). Has a bit of a hop bite from recirculating and Vic Secret, but its drinkable. It’ll settle in in a couple days. Aroma is strong citrus, orange, and berry. Bit of grape juice/white wine. Flavor has lots of tropical fruit (passion fruit, guava, red currant), citrus, berry, and white wine. Pre-dry hop samples were outstanding. I *almost* considered skipping the dry hops. The dry hops definitely soaked up some of the thiols, but with the amount of saturation achieved during fermentation, the thiol flavors still come through while still allowing dry hop character to shine. I’m really happy with how this one turned out. Easily my best NEIPA. I think Ill play around with recipes omitting dry-hops in a blond ale or cold IPA.

Obligatory pic 1:

Natural light pic 2:

Color perception is an average of these two pictures.

 

[ihavenonickname]

Nice write up, you work hard for that beer! The foam looks incredible, dense meringue. What do you attribute that to?

 

[LumberZach]

Nice write up, you work hard for that beer! The foam looks incredible, dense meringue. What do you attribute that to?

I would say the 19% Spelt

 

[Apmarand]

I would say the 19% Spelt

+ step mash schedule

 

[Apmarand]

Nice write up, you work hard for that beer! The foam looks incredible, dense meringue. What do you attribute that to?

I’m a scientist - reproducibility is paramount

 

[Dgallo]

I would say the 19% Spelt

Takes more than just high protein grainbill for great head formation and retention.

This is something I really try to target. Step mashing with a mashout. High protein malted grain incorporated (wheat or spelt, oats work too but need to find the sweet spot) getting a good hot/cold break, transferring as clear of wort as possible to the fermenter, hopping rates and extended cold crash. Clarity of beer into the keg (not clear as is brilliant but clear as in free of particulate. I know some say you need to naturally carbonate but I force carb and have never seen a difference. Also, a clean glass, shape of the glass, and Pouring style makes a huge difference. Look into the slow pour method, that and the recess above will have you staking heads like this

 

[Apmarand]

I tried slow pour but the head was so dense… step mash IMO is what gives the texture at this scale

 

[Dgallo]

I tried slow pour but the head was so dense… step mash IMO is what gives the texture at this scale

That’s certainly helps clarify and create foam positive proteins. But great head retention and formation is a combo of things

 

[Apmarand]

Great picture. Totally agree it’s a synergistic effect to establish a big head and mouthfeel. At least in my opinion and experience, the mash schedule has had the biggest effect. To anyone listening, take my word with a grain of salt - my process is my process. I’ve admired @Dgallo beers for years now, and respect his process immensely. I’ve settled into something that I finally feel like makes the beers I want. No doubt due to this thread and contributions from major participants like @Dgallo, @Noob_Brewer, @bailey mountain brewer and the OG @Braufessor

 

[Apmarand]

Touching a bit more on @Dgallo comment on combinatorial effects: Don’t overlook dry hop additions to create mouthfeel. Polyphenols are viewed negatively but they can also be your friend *if* used correctly.

 

[James Quall]

Takes more than just high protein grainbill for great head formation and retention.

This is something I really try to target. Step mashing with a mashout. High protein malted grain incorporated (wheat or spelt, oats work too but need to find the sweet spot) getting a good hot/cold break, transferring as clear of wort as possible to the fermenter, hopping rates and extended cold crash. Clarity of beer into the keg (not clear as is brilliant but clear as in free of particulate. I know some say you need to naturally carbonate but I force carb and have never seen a difference. Also, a clean glass, shape of the glass, and Pouring style makes a huge difference. Look into the slow pour method, that and the recess above will have you staking heads like this View attachment 783872

What does your step mashing look like for NEIPAs?

 

[James Quall]

That’s certainly helps clarify and create foam positive proteins. But great head retention and formation is a combo of things View attachment 783875

Also, what does your grain bill look like to get that brilliant orange color?

 

[Apmarand]

Kiss of c malts (5% give or take) for me. SRM 5.8 this time, but over attenuation made it darker. Many have luck with carapils or c10-20 at lesser amounts. GNO (even at 7.8) can add color in my experience when applied more liberally

 

[Dgallo]

What does your step mashing look like for NEIPAs?

I do a very simple step mash.
-146*f for 40
-158-160*f 30
-170* mashout 10

Also, what does your grain bill look like to get that brilliant orange color?

About;
70% - Basemalt
27% - high protein (malted oats, spelt, wheat alone or in combo)
3% -honey malt (varies a little with og)

 

[tgrizelj]

I do a very simple step mash.
-146*f for 40
-158-160*f 30
-170* mashout 10



About;
70% - Basemalt
27% - high protein (malted oats, spelt, wheat alone or in combo)
3% -honey malt (varies a little with og)

what's your hot side set up? Do you use a 3v system? I'm looking to upgrade my original propane / kettle / cooler based system to electric with temp control to be able to step mash and control tighter temp ranges. Any advice is appreciated.

 

[Dgallo]

what's your hot side set up? Do you use a 3v system? I'm looking to upgrade my original propane / kettle / cooler based system to electric with temp control to be able to step mash and control tighter temp ranges. Any advice is appreciated.

I actually have an igloo cooler mash tun. I will mash in with a thicker mash and then over mash a bit with the second step. So here would be a simple run through of what I do

- Mash 4 gallons at first step
-heat another 1.5 gallons to around 180*f.
-before I add that I’ll pull a gallon of wort out of the mash tun and put it in a separate pot.
-I then add that water and see where my mash hits. If im too hot I’ll add the gallon of wort back until I hit the right temp. If it’s too cool l, I’ll heat that gallon to about 170 and add it back until hit the temp(or close enough)
-to mash out I drain the mash turn and raise the wort above 170 (denaturing the enzymes) and run it back through the grain bed and then do a quick sparge with the proper volume.

It’s not a perfect method by any means but it work well enough with the equipment I have.

 

[tgrizelj]

I actually have an igloo cooler mash tun. I will mash in with a thicker mash and then over mash a bit with the second step. So here would be a simple run through of what I do

- Mash 4 gallons at first step
-heat another 1.5 gallons to around 180*f.
-before I add that I’ll pull a gallon of wort out of the mash tun and put it in a separate pot.
-I then add that water and see where my mash hits. If im too hot I’ll add the gallon of wort back until I hit the right temp. If it’s too cool l, I’ll heat that gallon to about 170 and add it back until hit the temp(or close enough)
-to mash out I drain the mash turn and raise the wort above 170 (denaturing the enzymes) and run it back through the grain bed and then do a quick sparge with the proper volume.

It’s not a perfect method by any means but it work well enough with the equipment I have.

Very cool process. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Surfnsd]

So I tried a step mash process this time for fun and lost points on my mash efficiency. I normally mash at 152-154 for 90 minutes and can hit my numbers. This time I did Dgallos suggested 146 for 40min and then 158 for 30 minutes and was way low on my pre boil gravity. I ended up with 1.052 instead of my target of 1.068. Obviously it’s an east fix to just adjust the mash efficiency numbers, but Im curious to know if that’s normal? Or did I do something wrong? Nothing else was changed. Crush size, water chemistry and grain bill was the same from my previous brew which was 92% mash efficiency without the step mash process. Thoughts?

 

[Apmarand]

So I tried a step mash process this time for fun and lost points on my mash efficiency. I normally mash at 152-154 for 90 minutes and can hit my numbers. This time I did Dgallos suggested 146 for 40min and then 158 for 30 minutes and was way low on my pre boil gravity. I ended up with 1.052 instead of my target of 1.068. Obviously it’s an east fix to just adjust the mash efficiency numbers, but Im curious to know if that’s normal? Or did I do something wrong? Nothing else was changed. Crush size, water chemistry and grain bill was the same from my previous brew which was 92% mash efficiency without the step mash process. Thoughts?

Not normal. If anything, step mashing increases yield... Can you confirm that your thermometer/hydrometer/scale (to measure grain) are calibrated? I would be surprised if it was the 20 minute difference in total mash time.