New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[Dgallo]

@BeerFst

I still think you’re missing the pont. Losses of a heavily hopped beer can be as high as 15%, I personally see 10% and I hop at a total of 2.5 oz/gal. Cryo would cut the loss in half but incognito is supposed to have almost zero loss. So say it’s a 15bbl brew house switching over from pellets to incognito; They could theoretically sell a extra bbl of beer in each batch they brew that would have otherwise been loss. Roughly 248 pints extra at $6-$8 a pint equates to $1,488-$1,984 more money in their pockets every single batch. Over the course of a year, this is huge, especially in the margins breweries have to profit

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Why are they quoted using a weight measurement instead of a volume measurement? That seems bizarre to me, since it’s a liquid product being added to a liquid. (Oh well)

I'd imagine because it's tough to measure small volumes accurately because it's really sticky, it has the consistency of treacle. So much easier to weigh out 15g than try to measure 15ml volume and then get all 15ml into the pot.

unbelievably expensive though. They quote verdant as using 1.25gram/liter in a beer which is 23g per 5gallon batch. Malt miller only selling in 15g qty at almost 9 pounds (12 bucks with today’s rate) that’s 18 bucks before a single dry hop...that’s rough

Bear in mind it's a niche, imported product - US hops are more expensive here than you are used to, not least because of 20% sales tax. They quote 1g/l Incognito being the equivalent of 5.8g/l pellets in the whirlpool. So 15g of Incognito is equivalent to 87g of pellets.

The Incognito costs £8.49, 87g of T90 Citra pellets from TMM will cost you £6.53 (£7.50/100g) (they also have BBC pellets for £7.70/100g).

So Incognito costs exactly 30% more like-for-like.

They've also recently got in some of the terpene blends from Maniacal (see here) at £48 (US$64, €56) for 5ml, they suggest using 0.1-0.7ml so less than the price of a 100g bag of fancy hops.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Another option is to bag the pellets, throw them in the keg and hook up the liquid out on the keg to the blowoff on your fermenter then put a blow off on the gas in on your keg. Do this after active fermentation has begun and ideally if you have enough head space or use a yeast that doesn’t produce a huge krausen... don’t want yeast clogging the poppets and creating a bomb...

Fermentation will quickly purge the keg way more effectively than your present process. To fully eliminate O2 you need 13 full purges at 30 PSI. Pushing half a keg of Star San out and 4 purges at 20 still leaves a ton of O2 in the keg.

Don’t worry the pellets won’t degrade while they’re in the keg before you transfer beer onto them.

This is essentially what I do on my massively hopped IPAs except I don't bag the hops. Fermenting keg >> dry hop keg(loaded w dry hops at beginning of fermentation) >> blow-off tube. Then eventually to a liquid purged serving keg. Never have to break the seal and expose the beer to O2. Also makes harvesting yeast from primary easier. Seems to be working great

 

[BeerFst]

I'd imagine because it's tough to measure small volumes accurately because it's really sticky, it has the consistency of treacle. So much easier to weigh out 15g than try to measure 15ml volume and then get all 15ml into the pot.



Bear in mind it's a niche, imported product - US hops are more expensive here than you are used to, not least because of 20% sales tax. They quote 1g/l Incognito being the equivalent of 5.8g/l pellets in the whirlpool. So 15g of Incognito is equivalent to 87g of pellets.

The Incognito costs £8.49, 87g of T90 Citra pellets from TMM will cost you £6.53 (£7.50/100g) (they also have BBC pellets for £7.70/100g).

So Incognito costs exactly 30% more like-for-like.

They've also recently got in some of the terpene blends from Maniacal (see here) at £48 (US$64, €56) for 5ml, they suggest using 0.1-0.7ml so less than the price of a 100g bag of fancy hops.

That's a really good comparison, i couldn't find an equivalent noted, only found the verdant usage rate.

87g is ~3oz. based on YVH citra ($22), that's a little over $4 dollars worth of citra pellets. So its like 3X (~$12 in my earlier post) in this repackaged form. I assume the malt miller version is at a premium per gram since they are repacking and what not.

Just checking the spot hops price, citra isnt that much cheaper tan the YVH price, around 20 dollars a pound as well.

@Dgallo, i get it, its not intended for us, and there is added value for production breweries to get more beer from the whirlpool into the fermenter, but i dont think there is the value proposition to be very much higher than cryo price.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

87g is ~3oz. based on YVH citra ($22), that's a little over $4 dollars worth of citra pellets. So its like 3X (~$12 in my earlier post) in this repackaged form. I assume the malt miller version is at a premium per gram since they are repacking and what not.

Just checking the spot hops price, citra isnt that much cheaper tan the YVH price, around 20 dollars a pound as well.

I'll say again - you need to compare like with like, it's stupid to compare US bulk(er) hop prices with something that's transported across the Atlantic, broken into small retail quantities, and has prices quoted that include 20% sales tax. Just comparing with US 2oz or 4oz retail prices rather than direct lb prices would be fairer. I suspect in the US it'll also be a 30%-ish premium to hops from the same retailer.

As an aside, I've heard B-H have more products in the pipeline, including something aimed more at the cold side.

 

[Gozie Boy]

This is essentially what I do on my massively hopped IPAs except I don't bag the hops. Fermenting keg >> dry hop keg(loaded w dry hops at beginning of fermentation) >> blow-off tube. Then eventually to a liquid purged serving keg. Never have to break the seal and expose the beer to O2. Also makes harvesting yeast from primary easier. Seems to be working great

Sorry, I'm a bit new to this process, and not quite sure I understand the flow scheme here. If you don't bag the hops, then how do you move the beer from the "dry hop keg" to the "serving keg" without sucking up and moving a lot of hop material? Assume these are all closed system transfers.

 

[Dgallo]

@Gozie Boy he most likely has a floating dip tube (CBD) or cut the diptube shorter. Both work great but you’d only be getting roughly 4.25 gallons making it into the serving keg

 

[Gozie Boy]

@Gozie Boy he most likely has a floating dip tube (CBD) or cut the diptube shorter. Both work great but you’d only be getting roughly 4.25 gallons making it into the serving keg

Yup, thanks. That's a high price to pay (6-7 pints), but probably not a way around it, one way or another, if you want that much dry hopping.

 

[Dgallo]

Yup, thanks. That's a high price to pay (6-7 pints), but probably not a way around it, one way or another, if you want that much dry hopping.

If it’s in a keg that is. You can modify a FV so that it becomes a closed transfer and just account for the loss in you recipes and volumes then you can fill a full keg.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

@Gozie Boy he most likely has a floating dip tube (CBD) or cut the diptube shorter. Both work great but you’d only be getting roughly 4.25 gallons making it into the serving keg

Not really, what I do is double wrap the liquid dip tube just like back in college. I put one of those stainless steel mesh dry hop canisters in first with the dip tube going into it(hole drilled in the top), and then wrap it again in a mesh hop bag. I do have to cut the dip tube slightly shorter since it's sitting inside the stainless steel mesh canister and can't get quite into the low point of the keg, but only by like .25 of an inch. I really don't lose much excess beer, besides what the hops soak up(which is a good amount when it's a huge dry hop). When I dump the keg after transfer it's all hops, no beer left behind.

 

[Dgallo]

Not really, what I do is double wrap the liquid dip tube just like back in college. I put one of those stainless steel mesh dry hop canisters in first with the dip tube going into it(hole drilled in the top), and then wrap it again in a mesh hop bag. I do have to cut the dip tube slightly shorter since it's sitting inside the stainless steel mesh canister and can't get quite into the low point of the keg, but only by like .25 of an inch. I really don't lose much excess beer, besides what the hops soak up(which is a good amount when it's a huge dry hop). When I dump the keg after transfer it's all hops, no beer left behind.

That never gets gets coated with hop debris and stops the transfer? How much psi do you need to use to transfer?

 

[VirginiaHops1]

That never gets gets coated with hop debris and stops the transfer? How much psi do you need to use to transfer?

No, my transfers doing it that way have been 100% successful and easy. I cold crash before transfer to drop the hops but I've even forgotten to do so before and still transferred fine. I've actually had more issues with the CBDS which is why I played around with this method. I transferred a hoppy pale ale today which I didn't double wrap in the mesh and only used the SS hop canister. Although it transferred fine I noticed a little more hop material getting through so I think the double wrap is necessary for my hugely dry hopped beers.

Generally I'm using about 10 psi to transfer because I'm using the same tank that I carb with and don't want to bother changing the psi.

 

[BarryBrews]

Not really, what I do is double wrap the liquid dip tube just like back in college. I put one of those stainless steel mesh dry hop canisters in first with the dip tube going into it(hole drilled in the top), and then wrap it again in a mesh hop bag. I do have to cut the dip tube slightly shorter since it's sitting inside the stainless steel mesh canister and can't get quite into the low point of the keg, but only by like .25 of an inch. I really don't lose much excess beer, besides what the hops soak up(which is a good amount when it's a huge dry hop). When I dump the keg after transfer it's all hops, no beer left behind.

If the last hop addition you are adding is at the time you pitch the yeast, consider whirlpooling your hops at 170F for 30 minutes with the kettle covered then cool to room temperature with your CFC and leave it overnight for the hops (and the cold break) to settle out of the wort. You will end up with the same hop flavor going into fermentor and have a clear wort as well. It should also resolve any beer transfer issues. Great for New England IPAs. BTW the Kegco CFC doesn't clog with the hops. The next morning the cleaned and sanitized CFC can be used to transfer the wort at pitching temperature to your fermentor.

 

[SRJHops]

Using Omega British Ale V for the first time... Was a nice calm fermentation with not too much heat, but I checked the carboy this morning and it blew off the lid and foamed down the side! Hoping I caught it in time to avoid ruining/oxidizing the beer...still fermenting so hoping for the best. Will use blow off system next time! Anyone have experience with this yeast?

 

[couchsending]

It’s just their version of 1318, Juice, etc.. I’d expect a similar result.

https://omegayeast.com/uploads/downloads/Omega-Yeast-2019-Strain-Poster-For-Web.pdf

 

[SRJHops]

It’s just their version of 1318, Juice, etc.. I’d expect a similar result.

https://omegayeast.com/uploads/downloads/Omega-Yeast-2019-Strain-Poster-For-Web.pdf

Yeah, kinda odd. I have used both Juice and 1318 and they never blew the lid off.. It was also just under 5 gallons in a 6 gallon carboy...

 

[BarryBrews]

Using Omega British Ale V for the first time... Was a nice calm fermentation with not too much heat, but I checked the carboy this morning and it blew off the lid and foamed down the side! Hoping I caught it in time to avoid ruining/oxidizing the beer...still fermenting so hoping for the best. Will use blow off system next time! Anyone have experience with this yeast?

Not sure this helps directly, I used Imperial yeast A43 Loki and A44 Kveiking in a 10 gallon split batch fermented at 90F. Fermentation was complete in 5 and 6 days respectively, primary settled in 14 days and on day 31 I enjoyed the best NEIPA I've ever had! The krausen barely rose 2 inches. In the past I would have needed a blowoff tube, but since I started using clear wort the krausen is always minimum compared to previous brews. Basicly I cool the wort in the boil kettle and let it settle overnight with the lid on. This leaves all the hops and cold break in the kettle. As mentioned above, I whirlpool the hops at 170F for 30 minutes. I feel the 170F is hot enough to keep the wort infection free with the hops addition, the hotter wort will dissolve the flavors more readily and at the same time not lose the volatile compounds. This method also gives more beer since the bottom is not deep with trub, but rather yeast only which is then easier to reuse.

 

[SRJHops]

Not sure this helps directly, I used Imperial yeast A43 Loki and A44 Kveiking in a 10 gallon split batch fermented at 90F. Fermentation was complete in 5 and 6 days respectively, primary settled in 14 days and on day 31 I enjoyed the best NEIPA I've ever had! The krausen barely rose 2 inches. In the past I would have needed a blowoff tube, but since I started using clear wort the krausen is always minimum compared to previous brews. Basicly I cool the wort in the boil kettle and let it settle overnight with the lid on. This leaves all the hops and cold break in the kettle. As mentioned above, I whirlpool the hops at 170F for 30 minutes. I feel the 170F is hot enough to keep the wort infection free with the hops addition, the hotter wort will dissolve the flavors more readily and at the same time not lose the volatile compounds. This method also gives more beer since the bottom is not deep with trub, but rather yeast only which is then easier to reuse.

Interesting... I suppose it could be related to the hops, though my process didn't change too much. But it is fair to say that my wort is not clear going into the fermenter... I do strain the wort going into the fermenter, but the wort is certainly very greenish/cloudy. Your process is interesting, to be sure, though! Less yeast/trub in the fermenter, but aren't you leaving some wort in the kettle?

 

[Dgallo]

Not sure this helps directly, I used Imperial yeast A43 Loki and A44 Kveiking in a 10 gallon split batch fermented at 90F. Fermentation was complete in 5 and 6 days respectively, primary settled in 14 days and on day 31 I enjoyed the best NEIPA I've ever had! The krausen barely rose 2 inches. In the past I would have needed a blowoff tube, but since I started using clear wort the krausen is always minimum compared to previous brews. Basicly I cool the wort in the boil kettle and let it settle overnight with the lid on. This leaves all the hops and cold break in the kettle. As mentioned above, I whirlpool the hops at 170F for 30 minutes. I feel the 170F is hot enough to keep the wort infection free with the hops addition, the hotter wort will dissolve the flavors more readily and at the same time not lose the volatile compounds. This method also gives more beer since the bottom is not deep with trub, but rather yeast only which is then easier to reuse.

You’re fermentation took pretty long with those yeast for running in the 90’s. With Loki(kviek voss) I’ve gone 1.078-1.011 in 58 hours and grain to glass with cold crashing and dryhoping in 6.5 days.

 

[Dgallo]

Yeah, kinda odd. I have used both Juice and 1318 and they never blew the lid off.. It was also just under 5 gallons in a 6 gallon carboy...

1318 always tries to climb out of my fermenter. In my experience, The cleaner the wort goes in the higher the Krausen seems to get.

 

[jturman35]

Anyone using this Yeast brink from Nor Cal Solutions ? Seems like a really good idea for dry hopping if your using a conical.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

If the last hop addition you are adding is at the time you pitch the yeast, consider whirlpooling your hops at 170F for 30 minutes with the kettle covered then cool to room temperature with your CFC and leave it overnight for the hops (and the cold break) to settle out of the wort. You will end up with the same hop flavor going into fermentor and have a clear wort as well. It should also resolve any beer transfer issues. Great for New England IPAs. BTW the Kegco CFC doesn't clog with the hops. The next morning the cleaned and sanitized CFC can be used to transfer the wort at pitching temperature to your fermentor.

I don't have any transfer issues or yeast harvesting issues not eliminating 100% of the break material. I do always leave a decent amount behind that has dropped to the bottom of the kettle though when I dump into my fermenter. The hop material drops pretty fast but you are right the longer the kettle sits the more of the protein break I see clumping and dropping. I like pitching and getting the yeast going as quickly as possible but maybe I'll try it your way sometime and see if there's any discernible difference in beer quality. If not I don't know if it would be worth it to me though.

 

[BarryBrews]

Interesting... I suppose it could be related to the hops, though my process didn't change too much. But it is fair to say that my wort is not clear going into the fermenter... I do strain the wort going into the fermenter, but the wort is certainly very greenish/cloudy. Your process is interesting, to be sure, though! Less yeast/trub in the fermenter, but aren't you leaving some wort in the kettle?

Yes, I leave as much as 2 gallons (10 gal batch) of wort in the kettle along with the hops and cold break. It's easy enough to account for the loss in the kettle than crowd a 6.5 gallon glass fermentor with the trub and give up valuable head space. Since I started brewing with clear wort out of the mash tun and clear wort out of the kettle my beers have improve dramatically. The mash wort is achieved by continuous recirculating in a wide (21.5" dia) mash tun with a false bottom and nylon brew bag, and from the kettle by the overnight settling. BTW the brew bag makes clean up super easy.

 

[BarryBrews]

I don't have any transfer issues or yeast harvesting issues not eliminating 100% of the break material. I do always leave a decent amount behind that has dropped to the bottom of the kettle though when I dump into my fermenter. The hop material drops pretty fast but you are right the longer the kettle sits the more of the protein break I see clumping and dropping. I like pitching and getting the yeast going as quickly as possible but maybe I'll try it your way sometime and see if there's any discernible difference in beer quality. If not I don't know if it would be worth it to me though.

I agree about pitching as soon as possible. It was nerve-racking the first time leaving it overnight, but when I saw the clear wort and tasted the final beer......it became my new procedure. Keep in mind the kettle top is sanitized and the wort is cooled quickly from boiling to 170F and then quickly to ~70F with a Kegco CFC.

 

[BarryBrews]

Anyone using this Yeast brink from Nor Cal Solutions ? Seems like a really good idea for dry hopping if your using a conical.

I have a couple of questions after watching your video. I use a conical fermentor, and use a mason jar for lager yeast transfers for beers that have not been dry hopped. My questions - Don't you want to add oxygen during inoculation? And for late hop additions, wouldn't the yeast and trub get in the way with this setup?
Thanks. I'm always curious about new brewing equipment and procedures. I purchased a custom built false bottom for my mash tun from you, NorCal, that fits like a glove and is of excellent quality.

 

[jturman35]

I would think you would want to dump as much trub and yeast as possible. I have seen people develop contraptions using a site glass and racking valve for dumping hops through the top. This seems like a cheaper better alternative. I’m curious if anyone on here is using this with any feedback.

 

[SRJHops]

Yes, I leave as much as 2 gallons (10 gal batch) of wort in the kettle along with the hops and cold break. It's easy enough to account for the loss in the kettle than crowd a 6.5 gallon glass fermentor with the trub and give up valuable head space. Since I started brewing with clear wort out of the mash tun and clear wort out of the kettle my beers have improve dramatically. The mash wort is achieved by continuous recirculating in a wide (21.5" dia) mash tun with a false bottom and nylon brew bag, and from the kettle by the overnight settling. BTW the brew bag makes clean up super easy.

I have always been perplexed by cold break... I don't seem to have much (that I can see) in the bottom of the kettle.

What I do have is hops in the bottom of the kettle, even though I use a spider. I leave those in the kettle, but I do strain every last ounce of liquid into the fermenter. So, would you say this is clear wort or not? I would not call it trub, though maybe I am putting in cold break, even though I can't see it?

I hear you about losing volume. Between the yeast and all the dry hops, I am losing just shy of a gallon by my estimates. But it seems like either way -- leaving liquid in the kettle or not -- both processes result in lost beer. But if your process results in much better beer, then it's certainly a win!

 

[BarryBrews]

I have always been perplexed by cold break... I don't seem to have much (that I can see) in the bottom of the kettle.

What I do have is hops in the bottom of the kettle, even though I use a spider. I leave those in the kettle, but I do strain every last ounce of liquid into the fermenter. So, would you say this is clear wort or not? I would not call it trub, though maybe I am putting in cold break, even though I can't see it?

I hear you about losing volume. Between the yeast and all the dry hops, I am losing just shy of a gallon by my estimates. But it seems like either way -- leaving liquid in the kettle or not -- both processes result in lost beer. But if your process results in much better beer, then it's certainly a win!

First, thanks for the discourse. When I say clear I mean see through, not cloudy. If the wort at pitching temperature was left indefinitely in a fermentor without the yeast there would be no cold break, hot break or hops settling out. Are you chilling the wort in the boil kettle? I use to use a plate chiller from kettle to fermentor. The fast chill caused huge amounts of fluffy cold break that would settle in the fermentor by the next day. So now everything is settled out first in the kettle overnight before transferring the wort to the fermentor. Arguably a cleaner tasting beer, easier yeast re-use and to my observations less krausen height. I believe the trub if in the fermentor adds to the structural formation/strength of the krausen causing a larger foam build up.

 

[InspectorJon]

I am going to try my hand at a Strawberry Milkshake. I'd like some suggestions on hopping. I have Galaxy, Sabro, Citra, Azacca, Simcoe, CTZ, Mosaic, Amarillo and Centenial available. Hop combination suggestions? I'm aiming for 3 gallons in the fermentor and plan to add 3 lbs of strawberries after fermentation. Add dryhops with strawberries?

 

[SRJHops]

First, thanks for the discourse. When I say clear I mean see through, not cloudy. If the wort at pitching temperature was left indefinitely in a fermentor without the yeast there would be no cold break, hot break or hops settling out. Are you chilling the wort in the boil kettle? I use to use a plate chiller from kettle to fermentor. The fast chill caused huge amounts of fluffy cold break that would settle in the fermentor by the next day. So now everything is settled out first in the kettle overnight before transferring the wort to the fermentor. Arguably a cleaner tasting beer, easier yeast re-use and to my observations less krausen height. I believe the trub if in the fermentor adds to the structural formation/strength of the krausen causing a larger foam build up.

Very interesting! I have never heard of anyone doing your process with the overnight wort rest, though I have heard of people leaving a lot of hops/trub/wort in the bottom of the kettle.

Let me see if I understand: You boil your wort, chill it, then let it sit in the kettle overnight, and then drain to the fermenter?

I do chill in the kettle with a regular copper immersion chiller. It's fair to say that while I have seen cold break in the wort as it was boiling, I have never seen large clumps of it in the the kettle after chilling.