New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

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aaronm13

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You’re simply running The CO2 through two kegs instead of one, so theoretically if you believe there is enough CO2 to purge one keg you could purge a bunch of kegs. It doesn’t really make a difference. The tubing in the picture is 3/16 but I’d imagine anything similar will work the same. This is the first time I’m trying the SMB and a AA So I don’t have any actual experience with it. I’ve read some pretty positive things about it though which prompted me to give it a try.
20210324_190700.jpg

This will be my set up I think and don't need to drill the fridge as the 3/16 beer line goes in each side of the door and into a jar of star san so I can keep the wife happy.
 

HopsAreGood

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I do star san purges with co2, so for me to put SMB or AA in the keg I would have to open the keg after I purge which would defeat the purpose. So my question is could I add these to my fermenter either when I dry hop or cold crash to help or would that have no benefit?
I’m not sure to be honest. I know that it’s typically added at packaging. I’m going to give it a shot in the dry hop keg.
 

R.A.I.D

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I would recommend a total of 1 g AA to 20 L beer. And just add it all together with the dry hop.

@aaronm13 Store your NEIPA as cold as possible. Heat is also a killer for the hop aroma.
 

aaronm13

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I would recommend a total of 1 g AA to 20 L beer. And just add it all together with the dry hop.

@aaronm13 Store your NEIPA as cold as possible. Heat is also a killer for the hop aroma.
Thanks, will try the AA next time. I keg so my beer is always cold. Hopefully this is just part of the conditioning process.
 

aaronm13

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Have the fermenter blow off connected to the dry hop and serving keg with the hops in the dry hop one. @HopsAreGood do you find the aroma of the dry hops been blown off? The smell in my fridge is incredible and I'm worried the aroma is going to suffer because of this. Second generation of LAIII is ripping through things so far.
 

HopsAreGood

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Have the fermenter blow off connected to the dry hop and serving keg with the hops in the dry hop one. @HopsAreGood do you find the aroma of the dry hops been blown off? The smell in my fridge is incredible and I'm worried the aroma is going to suffer because of this. Second generation of LAIII is ripping through things so far.
Nope. I have not found any loss of aroma doing it this way. I honestly think the biggest factor is the quality of the hops AND the ability to truly limit oxygen exposure. I did a beer about two months ago or so that was a few ounces of mosaic hot side, and then a single dry hop of 8 ounces of enigma. The beer was 1.076 -1.020 and the hops sat in the dry hop keg for close to 10 days. The result was one of the most aromatic beers I’ve ever brewed. The enigma was just so strong and pungent. I suppose your mileage may vary but for me it works great.
 

aaronm13

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Nope. I have not found any loss of aroma doing it this way. I honestly think the biggest factor is the quality of the hops AND the ability to truly limit oxygen exposure. I did a beer about two months ago or so that was a few ounces of mosaic hot side, and then a single dry hop of 8 ounces of enigma. The beer was 1.076 -1.020 and the hops sat in the dry hop keg for close to 10 days. The result was one of the most aromatic beers I’ve ever brewed. The enigma was just so strong and pungent. I suppose your mileage may vary but for me it works great.
Wow, sounds good so. I'm probably just over thinking things. Always get a lovely smell in the fermentation fridge but just seems a little stronger this time. Really looking forward to see the results of zero oxygen. I used some of that Aromazyme in the fermenter too so curious about that too. The Yakima Galaxy smelled better than the last bag of broccoli they sent me but still not amazing. Think I'm done buying Galaxy off them.
 

HopsAreGood

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Wow, sounds good so. I'm probably just over thinking things. Always get a lovely smell in the fermentation fridge but just seems a little stronger this time. Really looking forward to see the results of zero oxygen. I used some of that Aromazyme in the fermenter too so curious about that too. The Yakima Galaxy smelled better than the last bag of broccoli they sent me but still not amazing. Think I'm done buying Galaxy off them.
I mean think about it...yes, the c02 is passing through the keg in which the dry hops are contained. So you should get a little extra boost in the smell that’s coming out. But just because that smell is coming out doesn’t mean they’re being stripped of their precious oils in the same way you’d get scrubbing of aroma if they were added in to the wort during fermentation. When they are vacuum sealed in a package it’s obviously to keep them free from oxygen. (For long term storage. The hop producers have no idea when the end user is actually going to use them) When you open them up and put them in the dry hop keg, yes they are exposed to oxygen for a few days before the keg becomes fully purged. But in my experience doing it this way, those few days have absolutely zero negative impact on their ability to impart their goods into the finished beer. For me, 80 to 90% of fermentation is usually done within 72 hours, so at that point they’re essentially just sitting in an oxygen free environment no different than the bag that they were previously in. I’ve also heard people talk about finding some positive effects of letting hops breathe a little bit and or age. While conventional wisdom may lead you to believe that you want to put them into your beer five seconds after opening the package, I have never noticed any negative affect by doing it this way. If anything, I’ve noticed superior results doing it this way as opposed to opening up the fermenter and dropping the hops in......Even while flushing it while adding the hops, and purging it a million times afterwards.
 
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aaronm13

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I mean think about it...yes, the c02 is passing through the keg in which the dry hops are contained. So you should get a little extra boost in the smell that’s coming out. But just because that smell is coming out doesn’t mean they’re being stripped of their precious oils in the same way you’d get scrubbing of aroma if they were added in to the wort during fermentation. When they are vacuum sealed in a package it’s obviously to keep them free from oxygen. (For long term storage. The hop producers have no idea when the end user is actually going to use them) When you open them up and put them in the dry hop keg, yes they are exposed to oxygen for a few days before the keg becomes fully purged. But in my experience doing it this way, those few days have absolutely zero negative impact on their ability to impart their goods into the finished beer. For me, 80 to 90% of fermentation is usually done within 72 hours, so at that point they’re essentially just sitting in an oxygen free environment no different than the bag that they were previously in. I’ve also heard people talk about finding some positive effects of letting hops breathe a little bit and or age. While conventional wisdom may lead you to believe that you want to put them into your beer five seconds after opening the package, I have never noticed any negative affect by doing it this way. If anything, I’ve noticed superior results doing it this way as opposed to opening up the fermenter and dropping the hops in......Even while flushing it while adding the hops, and purging it a million times afterwards.
Thanks for the detailed run through, it does make a lot of sense when you think about it. Brewing makes you so paranoid about little things like leaving out your hops. Brings out my inner OCD. I double dry hop so that's opening my fermenter which I do purge then opening the dry hop keg. So that's two opportunities for oxygen to get in even with my best purging efforts.
 

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My next NEIPA will be Citra Cryo in whirlpool (and nothing else hot side). This is first time I am using Cryo. Would 50g (1.75oz) be enough?

Dry hop will be:
Nelson T90 150g (5.25oz)
Motueka T90 100g (3.5oz)
 

Oldskewl

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HopsAreGood, I have been kegging NEIPAs for several years just filling open kegs from the bottom up and purging. I too have decided to take an attempt at minimal oxygen exposure. I use SS Brewtech Brew Buckets 3.5 and 7gal. I ordered several items recommended by couchsending to add TC fittings to my lids to give me the ability to do a closed transfer.(After I attempted one via gravity and failed miserably)

2 questions I have are: 1. Do you have issues with using such a small3/16" blow-off and getting yeast into the dry hop keg or clogging altogether? 2. I assume the dry hop keg has oxygen in it and then is purged by fermentation. Then that oxygen is being pushed into the serving keg and then ultimately out into the atmosphere. Is this correct? Trying to wrap my head around using the fermentation to purge kegs instead of wasting bottled CO2
 

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HopsAreGood, I have been kegging NEIPAs for several years just filling open kegs from the bottom up and purging. I too have decided to take an attempt at minimal oxygen exposure. I use SS Brewtech Brew Buckets 3.5 and 7gal. I ordered several items recommended by couchsending to add TC fittings to my lids to give me the ability to do a closed transfer.(After I attempted one via gravity and failed miserably)

2 questions I have are: 1. Do you have issues with using such a small3/16" blow-off and getting yeast into the dry hop keg or clogging altogether? 2. I assume the dry hop keg has oxygen in it and then is purged by fermentation. Then that oxygen is being pushed into the serving keg and then ultimately out into the atmosphere. Is this correct? Trying to wrap my head around using the fermentation to purge kegs instead of wasting bottled CO2
1. Nope. I have zero issues getting anything into the dry hop keg. I generally soft crash to 60 for 1 or 2 days, so I end up with a nice compact yeast cake underneath the spigot. I’m not dry hopping at all in the fermenter so there are no hops to clog anything either. Here’s how I transfer:

D53C2C75-F48E-41F7-A5AE-70F234169407.jpeg
The tubing from the spigot is just standard beverage tubing connected to a QD.

2. Yes, the c02 that is created during fermentation passes through both the dry hop keg and serving keg, purging them of the oxygen contained within. I just run a tube from the serving keg down into a jug of star San....no different than a traditional airlock. If you really
want to do everything you can, you can liquid purge your serving keg first, and then also run all of the c02 through it as well. I’ve also done this same setup with only liquid purging the serving keg, not running the fermentation c02 through it as well, and that works too. But to me, it’s easy enough to do both so why not.

When you’re ready to jump from the dry hop keg to the serving keg, it looks like this: Remember, there is a 300 micron Janish type filter over the diptube in the dryhop keg.

2494344D-3071-4F88-B016-5B662675F005.jpeg


I’ll give you a tip though. Once you are ready to transfer from the dry hop keg to your serving keg, start flowing in some co2 to the dry hop keg around 6-8 psi...but before you attach the jumper, attach a beverage qd with nothing attached to it at all. Point it towards some grass and as soon as you connect it with some pressure in the keg, it’s going to start shooting out beer. Because I generally dry hop anywhere from 8-12 ounces, there’s going to be a little sludge that gets through. As soon as beer starts shooting out you’ll see that it looks like dark hop sludge, but after 1-2 seconds it Clears up and just looks like regular beer. As soon as you notice the change pull the qd off, and then connect it to the jumper and proceed with the transfer from the DryHop keg to the serving keg. This way you’ve gotten rid of the initial sludge that could potentially cause a clog. I’ve done this a number of times and I highly recommend shooting out that hop sludge first.

I’ll also add there are a number of different variations and ways to do this, but this has been working well for me and the equipment that I have.
 

Oldskewl

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Thanks for the tips. My only concern with this method is that I have gotten yeast in my blow off tube before. I guess the shape of the Brew Bucket is more prone to this than the Fermonster. I could always reduce my volume 1/2 a gallon to minimize the chance. Also, do you use a shortened dip tube on that dry hop keg? In addition to the Janish type dip tube filter?
 

HopsAreGood

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Thanks for the tips. My only concern with this method is that I have gotten yeast in my blow off tube before. I guess the shape of the Brew Bucket is more prone to this than the Fermonster. I could always reduce my volume 1/2 a gallon to minimize the chance. Also, do you use a shortened dip tube on that dry hop keg? In addition to the Janish type dip tube filter?
Totally understand. Different fermentors will have little nuances to them so I can only really speak to the equipment that I have. Yes, the dip tube in the dry hop keg is shortened about 2 inches or so. Obviously some of the dip tubes are straight and other ones kind of curve down in towards the center. The one I have curves in towards the center but the filter was flexible enough to bend with it.

Edit: oh I see what you’re saying...you’re taking about the krausen getting into the dryhop keg during fermentation? If that’s the case then yes, all you can really do is adjust your volume to hopefully prevent that from happening. For some reason I thought you meant getting yeast into the dry hop keg during the transfer from the fermenter.
 
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BeerFst

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FYI, AIH sells the straight ones for ~20 bucks. My corny's also have the bent dip tube, and the straight is an easy replacement. I still had to cut it slightly (1/2") due to the curve at the bottom of the keg.

I wasn't as brave as @HopsAreGood and was too afraid to bend the filter.
 

aaronm13

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Thanks for the tips. My only concern with this method is that I have gotten yeast in my blow off tube before. I guess the shape of the Brew Bucket is more prone to this than the Fermonster. I could always reduce my volume 1/2 a gallon to minimize the chance. Also, do you use a shortened dip tube on that dry hop keg? In addition to the Janish type dip tube filter?
I use the 7g SS Brewtec bucket myself. It's more expense but you could get the domed lid with TC attachment on top. This gives you an extra bit of headspace. I'm doing this purging method myself for the first time right now and the thought of krausen getting into the dry hop keg has crossed my mind as I've 6g of wort in the fermenter.

Also @HopsAreGood, when you're doing your soft crash do you just disconnect the out post of the dry hop keg and use whatever co2 is in the keg to use as suck back if there's any negative pressure?
 

HopsAreGood

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I use the 7g SS Brewtec bucket myself. It's more expense but you could get the domed lid with TC attachment on top. This gives you an extra bit of headspace. I'm doing this purging method myself for the first time right now and the thought of krausen getting into the dry hop keg has crossed my mind as I've 6g of wort in the fermenter.

Also @HopsAreGood, when you're doing your soft crash do you just disconnect the out post of the dry hop keg and use whatever co2 is in the keg to use as suck back if there's any negative pressure?
I leave it all connected. I’m only crashing from 70-60 so it’s not as drastic if you were going down into the 30’s. The amount of c02 in the 2 kegs seems to be more than enough. I’ve never had any issues leaving the out tube in the star San...
 

Dgallo

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@HopsAreGood if you ferment in fermonsters why don’t you just get another fermonster and modify the lid so you can do the same thing your doing with your kegs but have a dryhop fermonster? Then you won’t have to sacrifice the final volume into your serving keg
 

anteater8

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1. Nope. I have zero issues getting anything into the dry hop keg. I generally soft crash to 60 for 1 or 2 days, so I end up with a nice compact yeast cake underneath the spigot. I’m not dry hopping at all in the fermenter so there are no hops to clog anything either. Here’s how I transfer:

View attachment 723556The tubing from the spigot is just standard beverage tubing connected to a QD.

2. Yes, the c02 that is created during fermentation passes through both the dry hop keg and serving keg, purging them of the oxygen contained within. I just run a tube from the serving keg down into a jug of star San....no different than a traditional airlock. If you really
want to do everything you can, you can liquid purge your serving keg first, and then also run all of the c02 through it as well. I’ve also done this same setup with only liquid purging the serving keg, not running the fermentation c02 through it as well, and that works too. But to me, it’s easy enough to do both so why not.

When you’re ready to jump from the dry hop keg to the serving keg, it looks like this: Remember, there is a 300 micron Janish type filter over the diptube in the dryhop keg.

View attachment 723558

I’ll give you a tip though. Once you are ready to transfer from the dry hop keg to your serving keg, start flowing in some co2 to the dry hop keg around 6-8 psi...but before you attach the jumper, attach a beverage qd with nothing attached to it at all. Point it towards some grass and as soon as you connect it with some pressure in the keg, it’s going to start shooting out beer. Because I generally dry hop anywhere from 8-12 ounces, there’s going to be a little sludge that gets through. As soon as beer starts shooting out you’ll see that it looks like dark hop sludge, but after 1-2 seconds it Clears up and just looks like regular beer. As soon as you notice the change pull the qd off, and then connect it to the jumper and proceed with the transfer from the DryHop keg to the serving keg. This way you’ve gotten rid of the initial sludge that could potentially cause a clog. I’ve done this a number of times and I highly recommend shooting out that hop sludge first.

I’ll also add there are a number of different variations and ways to do this, but this has been working well for me and the equipment that I have.
This is some cool ****, thanks for sharing is such detail. I've been really happy with my NEIPA's just using a co2 filled balloon to soft crash and cold crash, and then carefully kegging into a starsan filled & co2 purged kegged. But this makes me wonder if one day I'll take the leap into a setup like this.
 

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@HopsAreGood if you ferment in fermonsters why don’t you just get another fermonster and modify the lid so you can do the same thing your doing with your kegs but have a dryhop fermonster? Then you won’t have to sacrifice the final volume into your serving keg
I don’t trust fermonsters to hold much more pressure than 3-4 psi...maybe 5. I feel much more secure using the kegs, and will occasionally purge them to significantly higher than 3-5. Plus, I like having the diptube filter...I suppose this could be done in a fermonster but I already have a working set up so I’m not really looking to change it up. Also truth be told...I don’t mind ending up with 4-4.5 gallons of finished beer. More times than not I don’t actually finish every drop. I end up dumping a little to make room for my next beer.
 

Oldskewl

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I use the 7g SS Brewtec bucket myself. It's more expense but you could get the domed lid with TC attachment on top. This gives you an extra bit of headspace. I'm doing this purging method myself for the first time right now and the thought of krausen getting into the dry hop keg has crossed my mind as I've 6g of wort in the fermenter.

Also @HopsAreGood, when you're doing your soft crash do you just disconnect the out post of the dry hop keg and use whatever co2 is in the keg to use as suck back if there's any negative pressure?
Yeah I just ordered the domed lid a few days ago along with the pressure transfer fitting. Wish they made a domed lid for the mini since I’ve been brewing smaller batches lately. Supposedly the PRV in the pressure transfer fitting will allow a soft crash and maintain positive pressure. We will see.
 

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Just started following this enormous discussion hoping to find an answer to my logistical question. Couldn’t find it.

I’m currently making my first NE IPA. It’s on its 3rd day of fermentation and I just added my first hops to it. It’s fermenting in a corny keg. Understanding the importance of keeping O2 out I’ll be pressure transferring the beer to the dry hop keg soon. Closed system.

Can you explain to me how you purge the dry hop keg effectively and efficiently? I have done star san purge but I don’t see how it can work if I plan adding hops there. If I purge it with star san I’ll have to open it to add hops. Oxygen will get in. Adding hops hen just purging with CO2 is wasteful and not effective. Dead end.

Please help!
Thank you!
 

AMessenger

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Can you explain to me how you purge the dry hop keg effectively and efficiently? I have done star san purge but I don’t see how it can work if I plan adding hops there. If I purge it with star san I’ll have to open it to add hops. Oxygen will get in. Adding hops hen just purging with CO2 is wasteful and not effective. Dead end.
This is a nagging question for me too and I’m also skeptical of that dry hopping approach (although I’ve been using it as described without any obvious oxidation issues). Finding a process that balances quality, cost, and reasonable ease of execution is the dream. Ideally we’d be running triangle tests using different processes and be able to assess O2 levels along the way. That is a huge investment in time and $$$ to get there though.

Without that it comes down to whether you like your beer and if you detect, or imagine you detect, signs of O2 impacting things
 

Dgallo

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Just started following this enormous discussion hoping to find an answer to my logistical question. Couldn’t find it.

I’m currently making my first NE IPA. It’s on its 3rd day of fermentation and I just added my first hops to it. It’s fermenting in a corny keg. Understanding the importance of keeping O2 out I’ll be pressure transferring the beer to the dry hop keg soon. Closed system.

Can you explain to me how you purge the dry hop keg effectively and efficiently? I have done star san purge but I don’t see how it can work if I plan adding hops there. If I purge it with star san I’ll have to open it to add hops. Oxygen will get in. Adding hops hen just purging with CO2 is wasteful and not effective. Dead end.

Please help!
Thank you!
Some people don’t liquid purge their serving or dryhop kegs, they will just allow the co2 from fermentation to purge them both. In that case, the dryhop kegs will be preloaded.
 
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BeerFst

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after star san purging the keg, i run CO2 at like 2-4 psi while dumping the hops in. this is similar to what the pros do in their larger tanks (Granted their headspace to volume ratio is WAY lower than in a corny). This works well for me and I typically dont run into foaming issues unless the beer i am transferring is already carbonated. Early on in my process I was spunding BEFORE dry hopping and for those beers i would add the hops to the empty, star san purged keg to prevent foam overs.

I prefer to add the hops AFTER transferring the beer to limit the headspace, which (in my opinion) limits the total amount of O2 that could get in the keg in the first place. IE 21% of .5-1G of headspace is less than 21% of 5G. CO2 is running the whole time but clearly speed is a factor. after transferring i continue to let the gas flow (lid on but PRV wide open) for 30s or so, followed by several purges. This has been quite successful for me, particularly when i plan to dry hop twice, or even add an extra (unplanned) keg hop or gelatin when the beer doesn't quite turn out as expected (not for oxidation reasons).
 

Dgallo

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after star san purging the keg, i run CO2 at like 2-4 psi while dumping the hops in. this is similar to what the pros do in their larger tanks (Granted their headspace to volume ratio is WAY lower than in a corny). This works well for me and I typically dont run into foaming issues unless the beer i am transferring is already carbonated. Early on in my process I was spunding BEFORE dry hopping and for those beers i would add the hops to the empty, star san purged keg to prevent foam overs.

I prefer to add the hops AFTER transferring the beer to limit the headspace, which (in my opinion) limits the total amount of O2 that could get in the keg in the first place. IE 21% of .5-1G of headspace is less than 21% of 5G. CO2 is running the whole time but clearly speed is a factor. after transferring i continue to let the gas flow (lid on but PRV wide open) for 30s or so, followed by several purges. This has been quite successful for me, particularly when i plan to dry hop twice, or even add an extra (unplanned) keg hop or gelatin when the beer doesn't quite turn out as expected (not for oxidation reasons).
I too do what @BeerFst does. Will run co2 through my floating dip tube before I open the fermonster, open it will positive pressure and then run the gas higher and dump them in, allow it to run for a few seconds and then close the cap and turn off the gas. As he stated, this is what your favorite pros are doing as they dryhop
 

Byaka

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Some people don’t liquid purge their serving or dryhop kegs, they will just allow the co2 from fermentation to purge them both. In that case, the dryhop kegs will be preloaded.
Unfortunately, I found this thread on my day 3 of the fermentation and it’s too late now. Besides, because of the fairly low headspace, I ended up with krausen getting into my blow off setup. But I love the idea and once I get my recently ordered 1/4 barrel keg that I will turn into a fermenter I will definitely try it.
 

Byaka

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I too do what @BeerFst does. Will run co2 through my floating dip tube before I open the fermonster, open it will positive pressure and then run the gas higher and dump them in, allow it to run for a few seconds and then close the cap and turn off the gas. As he stated, this is what your favorite pros are doing as they dryhop
Love it. Will give it a try! Thank you
 

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Anyone have experience with getting consistent melon notes? My last three batches have had various amounts of melon aroma in spite of all three having uniquely different grain bills, hops, and yeasts.
 

Dgallo

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I have heard a silicone bung will stop/reduce 02 suck back when cold crashing. Is this true?
It will not prevent or reduce the negative pressure created in the fermenter during crashing, it will simply prevent air from entering your fermenter. Which will cause
82E94FFE-F67E-4D5F-AD38-4688DD066EDA.gif
 

Frieds

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Can fermonsters handle pressure? In my Fermzilla I put a couple of psi into it before I could crash so it doesn’t collapse.
 

Dgallo

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Can fermonsters handle pressure? In my Fermzilla I put a couple of psi into it before I could crash so it doesn’t collapse.
Only if you modify your lid. @EstebanPro86
 

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How many psi would you need to put onto the fermonster with like 1 gallon of headspace in order to have no negative pressure inside of it for a 70F to 35F chill?
 

nebulabrewing

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How many psi would you need to put onto the fermonster with like 1 gallon of headspace in order to have no negative pressure inside of it for a 70F to 35F chill?
No idea, but you could gradually drop the pressure over time. If I cold crash outside of kegging, this is typically what I do.
 

Dgallo

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No idea, but you could gradually drop the pressure over time. If I cold crash outside of kegging, this is typically what I do.
Or you could just keep your fv hooked up to the regulator at 3 psi when you crash so as the pressure drops, it will kick on
 

JRL5043

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Can fermonsters handle pressure? In my Fermzilla I put a couple of psi into it before I could crash so it doesn’t collapse.
I really like the Fermonster, but I may have pushed it to the limits spunding at 5psi at 96F. (See crack in lid) This was also my 5th or 6th brew spunding with this setup, and sometimes I neglected to relieve pressure following kegging day for a couple weeks at a time.

Going forward I may replace the lid every 4 or 5 brews (only $3), not spund when using high temps, and be sure to depressurize as soon as Im done.

I do add pressure to about 3psi before soft crashing and check it every few hours to push the side wall and see if it lost pressure. Like others said you can leave the pressure on a 3psi to play it safe.
IMG_20210331_063147537_MP.jpg
 
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