New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[ttuato]

My comment based on this:

http://scottjanish.com/dextrins-and-mouthfeel/

“Weyermann Carafoam (Carapils outside the US) is different than Briess Carapils and is akin to chit malt, high in protein and under-modified.”

“Briess Carapils is a true glassy caramel/crystal malt, albeit one that isn’t roasted enough to develop the color or flavor associated with darker caramel malts”

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

First Scott Janish quoted the "party line" (as you have expressed above). Then in the very next paragraph Scott went on to make a batch of beer with 50% Briess Carapils in the grist, and it fermented quite normally with regard to apparent attenuation as if Briess Carapils was not at all in conformance with the "party line" nature that Briess claimed for it. Thus in effect he was led by hard data to totally refute the party line. His article must not be taken out of context to cherry pick what one wants to hear, but rather it must be read in the context of what actually needs to be heard. It leaves one dangling as to the true nature of Briess Carapils. It thus leaves the door open to the possibility that it might have more in common with Carafoam than Briess wants us to believe.

 

[SRJHops]

First Scott Janish quoted the "party line" (as you have expressed above). Then in the very next paragraph Scott went on to make a batch of beer with 50% Briess Carapils in the grist, and it fermented quite normally with regard to apparent attenuation as if Briess Carapils was not at all in conformance with the "party line" nature that Briess claimed for it. Thus in effect he was led by hard data to totally refute the party line. His article must not be taken out of context to cherry pick what one wants to hear, but rather it must be read in the context of what actually needs to be heard. It leaves one dangling as to the true nature of Briess Carapils. It thus leaves the door open to the possibility that it might have more in common with Carafoam than Briess wants us to believe.

Agree it was a little odd that he was saying carafoam had higher protein, then he went ahead and used carapils for the experiment. I think all he confirmed, though, was that carapils didn't seem to help with mouthfeel very much, but still helped with foam/head retention.

I am not sure if he ever went on to experiment with carafoam, but I bet now he would recommend it over carapils, given his interest in chit malt (if indeed carafoam is more like chit malt than carapils).

Carafoam does seem like a good thing to try if you can't easily find chit malt...

Anyone out there had good results with carafoam?

 

[marchuk96]

Agree it was a little odd that he was saying carafoam had higher protein, then he went ahead and used carapils for the experiment. I think all he confirmed, though, was that carapils didn't seem to help with mouthfeel very much, but still helped with foam/head retention.

I am not sure if he ever went on to experiment with carafoam, but I bet now he would recommend it over carapils, given his interest in chit malt (if indeed carafoam is more like chit malt than carapils).

Carafoam does seem like a good thing to try if you can't easily find chit malt...

Anyone out there had good results with carafoam?

I think i used it way back once and didn't really perceive much of a difference...it also seems like he implied that a better choice would be the use of oats although that is contradictive of his more recent thoughts...for me I think the best n.e. I made used 2 lbs flaked oats and a pound of carapils...combined with a higher mash and water adjustments..it had a really solid and probably best overall feel to any other beer that I've made

 

[SRJHops]

I think i used it way back once and didn't really perceive much of a difference...it also seems like he implied that a better choice would be the use of oats although that is contradictive of his more recent thoughts...for me I think the best n.e. I made used 2 lbs flaked oats and a pound of carapils...combined with a higher mash and water adjustments..it had a really solid and probably best overall feel to any other beer that I've made

That is what I am thinking for my next brew. Going back to some flaked oats. What mash temp did you use? Janish uses 158, which is a lot higher than I have been using...

 

[marchuk96]

That is what I am thinking for my next brew. Going back to some flaked oats. What mash temp did you use? Janish uses 158, which is a lot higher than I have been using...

Have to refer to my notes but like 155/156...I'll check and get back to ya

 

[marchuk96]

Have to refer to my notes but like 155/156...I'll check and get back to ya

In checking my notes...it was actually mashed at 154...golden promise oats and carapils...f.g was a 1.016...ive actually made this beer twice with the same hops but swapped the hop amounts around...fun little experiment with great results

 

[WBCo]

This is still young, about 7 days in the keg, so it might still clear, but I wanted to post it in case anyone was still worried about chasing "haze." This is 12# Briess 2 Row, 1.5# Briess Vienna, 0.5# C40, 0.5# dextrose, high sulfate, low chloride, US-05, one big dryhop after the yeast was removed from the fermentor. Body is not quite the same as a NEIPA, but I mashed a little lower than I do for those.

 

[isomerization]

This is still young, about 7 days in the keg, so it might still clear, but I wanted to post it in case anyone was still worried about chasing "haze." This is 12# Briess 2 Row, 1.5# Briess Vienna, 0.5# C40, 0.5# dextrose, high sulfate, low chloride, US-05, one big dryhop after the yeast was removed from the fermentor. Body is not quite the same as a NEIPA, but I mashed a little lower than I do for those.View attachment 625121

No whirlpool additions?

That’s always what has given me the most “unexpected” haze in the past.

 

[Dgallo]

This is still young, about 7 days in the keg, so it might still clear, but I wanted to post it in case anyone was still worried about chasing "haze." This is 12# Briess 2 Row, 1.5# Briess Vienna, 0.5# C40, 0.5# dextrose, high sulfate, low chloride, US-05, one big dryhop after the yeast was removed from the fermentor. Body is not quite the same as a NEIPA, but I mashed a little lower than I do for those.View attachment 625121

Looks great. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the verdict out that haze is formed through the protein/polyphenol attraction and fermentation creates the molecular bond. So as long as both are present at the time of fermentation, haze will be created. Now the extent of how hazy and the length it is in suspension is all based on the amount of both being present and the specific branch of proteins the grains have.

I hope people aren’t just chasing haze for haze, but like I’ve said in the past I make a lot of different NEIPA with different yeast and grains bills just to have some variation in flavor profiles, mouthfeel, and honestly, different looks. For the oatcream and milkshake IPA’s Ive posted, I wanted them as opaque as possible with big bodies. For my standard I want a vibrant color with minimal haze to catch the light but the drinkablity to have them all day long. So IMO It’s all about what your going for and there is no “right way” to create a NEIPA

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Chit literally means sprout. Malted means sprouted. Cara means caramel (crystal).

Well, malting implies drying as well, and generally a bit more germination than just chitting. In this context, chit malt is a specific product, which has been left for less time than normal malt so is only partly modified, it's like a semi-malted barley. The Sapwood guys are big fans of chit malt for their hazy beers.

Caramel and crystal aren't interchangeable either - caramels can be made in a roaster or a kiln whereas crystal is only made in a roaster, so all crystal malts are caramel malts, but not all caramel malts are crystal malts. In particular British-made crystals are just not the same as US caramels.

 

[SRJHops]

This is still young, about 7 days in the keg, so it might still clear, but I wanted to post it in case anyone was still worried about chasing "haze." This is 12# Briess 2 Row, 1.5# Briess Vienna, 0.5# C40, 0.5# dextrose, high sulfate, low chloride, US-05, one big dryhop after the yeast was removed from the fermentor. Body is not quite the same as a NEIPA, but I mashed a little lower than I do for those.View attachment 625121

Looks tasty! As Dgallo notes, there is no one right way to make a NEIPA. If you are happy with your beer, that's all that matters.

With that said, and for discussion purposes on this forum..... The defining characteristic of a NEIPA is not haze, according to the BJCP guidelines. NEIPA's usually do have haze, but the real question is whether it has huge fruity hop flavor/aroma, soft mouthfeel, and low bitterness. If it does, it's probably a NEIPA. If it's missing any of those, it's probably closer to a tasty IPA.

 

[marchuk96]

Well, malting implies drying as well, and generally a bit more germination than just chitting. In this context, chit malt is a specific product, which has been left for less time than normal malt so is only partly modified, it's like a semi-malted barley. The Sapwood guys are big fans of chit malt for their hazy beers.

Caramel and crystal aren't interchangeable either - caramels can be made in a roaster or a kiln whereas crystal is only made in a roaster, so all crystal malts are caramel malts, but not all caramel malts are crystal malts. In particular British-made crystals are just not the same as US caramels.

So are you saying that your best choice is a "chitty" one....I'm sorry...I couldn't help myself[emoji23] [emoji23]

 

[WBCo]

No whirlpool additions?

That’s always what has given me the most “unexpected” haze in the past.

Yes, I did have whirlpool additions. A small FWH, some late kettle additions, whirlpool, and a 3 day dry hop right before packaging.

Looks great. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the verdict out that haze is formed through the protein/polyphenol attraction and fermentation creates the molecular bond. So as long as both are present at the time of fermentation, haze will be created. Now the extent of how hazy and the length it is in suspension is all based on the amount of both being present and the specific branch of proteins the grains have.

I hope people aren’t just chasing haze for haze, but like I’ve said in the past I make a lot of different NEIPA with different yeast and grains bills just to have some variation in flavor profiles, mouthfeel, and honestly, different looks. For the oatcream and milkshake IPA’s Ive posted, I wanted them as opaque as possible with big bodies. For my standard I want a vibrant color with minimal haze to catch the light but the drinkablity to have them all day long. So IMO It’s all about what your going for and there is no “right way” to create a NEIPA

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. I am chasing flavor, not a look. I was actually targeting a West Coast IPA with this beer, I just posted the pic because so many people (not necessarily in this thread) think that "haze" is only possible with high protein adjuncts, huge biotransformation hops, a certain water profile, and/or a certain yeast. I just found it interesting that I was shooting for a clearer more west coast inspired beer and doing things that shouldn't produce haze and yet ended up with a beautiful hazy beer. It's not as opaque, nor does it have the same mouthfeel as my protein heavy NEIPA's, but I thought it was interesting enough to share.

Looks tasty! As Dgallo notes, there is no one right way to make a NEIPA. If you are happy with your beer, that's all that matters.

With that said, and for discussion purposes on this forum..... The defining characteristic of a NEIPA is not haze, according to the BJCP guidelines. NEIPA's usually do have haze, but the real question is whether it has huge fruity hop flavor/aroma, soft mouthfeel, and low bitterness. If it does, it's probably a NEIPA. If it's missing any of those, it's probably closer to a tasty IPA.

Definitely more than one way to skin a cat! As I eluded to, I was more surprised by the look of this beer because I was expecting it to be clear. It is on the fruity side, I used Apollo, Simcoe, and Citra hops, but the mouthfeel is more west coast. I'm attributing that to the lower mash temps and lower chloride in the water. It is still young and may clear as the keg sits, but I wanted to provide another point of reference for future readers.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

It's not the haze. It's the body/mouthfeel that the elite NEIPAs have that people are chasing. Practically any beer will be hazy right after it's packaged if you don't filter it.

 

[WBCo]

It's not the haze. It's the body/mouthfeel that the elite NEIPAs have that people are chasing. Practically any beer will be hazy right after it's packaged if you don't filter it.

I think most of the people who contribute to this thread are chasing the body, mouthfeel, and hop flavor and aroma that the elite NEIPAs exhibit. We are fortunate to have threads like these to bounce ideas and experiences off of each other. There are plenty of people out there who are brewing beer for the "look" and there are even more "haze bois" out there who only want to buy beer for the look so they can post a pic of the beer on instagram.

 

[Dgallo]

I think most of the people who contribute to this thread are chasing the body, mouthfeel, and hop flavor and aroma that the elite NEIPAs exhibit. We are fortunate to have threads like these to bounce ideas and experiences off of each other. There are plenty of people out there who are brewing beer for the "look" and there are even more "haze bois" out there who only want to buy beer for the look so they can post a pic of the beer on instagram.

I also would argue appearance does matter too. All components matter to truly make a beer special. But agree a lot of beers look good but aren’t lol

 

[isomerization]

I thinking chasing haze, for the right reasons, is important.

Who here thinks their NE IPA tastes better after its dropped clear?

This is probably an implicitly biased question, as age will likely be a confounding factor, but the point remains. Creating stable haze prolongs the shelflife of the beer.

 

[KyleF318is]

Just a huge thanks to all the discussions and talks on this forum. Huge Lurker on here and have been following along and trying all kinds of suggestions. My latest ipa original grain grist with a 1/2lb of GNO. Did one dryhop addition. Used A24 for the first time and it is AWESOME! Cheers to you guys! Did some “natural light” pics because I know any direct sunlight helps everything! Haha View attachment 625157

 

[RTHP99]

My beers have been taking about 2.5-3 weeks to really hit their best flavor

Brewed this last week 50% Galaxy, 50% Centennial, used Ebbegarden Kveik.

It's still got a bit of hop burn but overall a really tasty beer. Would people recommend adding gelatin to the keg or let it sit a while longer to settle out?

20190501_213442

• JohnnyJohnJohns
• May 1, 2019

 

[couchsending]

Looks tasty! As Dgallo notes, there is no one right way to make a NEIPA. If you are happy with your beer, that's all that matters.

With that said, and for discussion purposes on this forum..... The defining characteristic of a NEIPA is not haze, according to the BJCP guidelines. NEIPA's usually do have haze, but the real question is whether it has huge fruity hop flavor/aroma, soft mouthfeel, and low bitterness. If it does, it's probably a NEIPA. If it's missing any of those, it's probably closer to a tasty IPA.

I wouldn’t base much about this style on anything the BJCP says. Most people reading this thread probably know more about these beers than the person that wrote those style guidelines.

 

[SRJHops]

I wouldn’t base much about this style on anything the BJCP says. Most people reading this thread probably know more about these beers than the person that wrote those style guidelines.

Perhaps. But we need a common reference point, or else we're just looking a pretty photos of beers. The BJCP guidelines are used to judge beers, as you know, from the GABF to local competitions. Curious if you would disagree with anything in them? That is of course OK...

http://dev.bjcp.org/beer-styles/21b-specialty-ipa-new-england-ipa/

 

[couchsending]

The common reference point is the top tier breweries making this style of beer, none of whom would bother to even send beer to GABF or World Beer Cup cause they don’t need to. Who says the judges at GABF had any idea what those beers are actually like?

For example at last year’s North American beer awards 4 or the 6 judges for that “style” had never even had that style of beer... last year’s GABF winning beer for the style had lactose in it.

 

[SRJHops]

The common reference point is the top tier breweries making this style of beer, none of whom would bother to even send beer to GABF or World Beer Cup cause they don’t need to. Who says the judges at GABF had any idea what those beers are actually like?

For example at last year’s North American beer awards 4 or the 6 judges for that “style” had never even had that style of beer... last year’s GABF winning beer for the style had lactose in it.

OK, but you are criticizing the judges. Is there something in the style guideline you don't agree with? It states that milkshake IPA's are not part of the style:

"Noticeable additions of fruit, lactose, or other materials to increase the fruity, smooth character should be entered in another category defined by the additive (e.g., Fruit Beer, Specialty Beer)."

 

[mjjunior10]

My beers have been taking about 2.5-3 weeks to really hit their best flavor

Yes I agree about this time, mostly depend on hops you are using.. I had a Centennial, BrAvo and Citra NEIPA that last 3 week to starting tastes good! The green hop taste become mellow after 3 weeks in the keg.

 

[stickyfinger]

have people found that it takes a few weeks for lower OG IPAs to start tasting good? I have found that if I start at or below 1.060, it takes time to taste good. If I start at 1.070 and go up, they taste good right away.

 

[Dgallo]

Yes I agree about this time, mostly depend on hops you are using.. I had a Centennial, BrAvo and Citra NEIPA that last 3 week to starting tastes good! The green hop taste become mellow after 3 weeks in the keg.

Agreed. The type of hop and also noticed the size of the dryhop having a huge impact too

 

[Genuine]

Agree it was a little odd that he was saying carafoam had higher protein, then he went ahead and used carapils for the experiment. I think all he confirmed, though, was that carapils didn't seem to help with mouthfeel very much, but still helped with foam/head retention.

I am not sure if he ever went on to experiment with carafoam, but I bet now he would recommend it over carapils, given his interest in chit malt (if indeed carafoam is more like chit malt than carapils).

Carafoam does seem like a good thing to try if you can't easily find chit malt...

Anyone out there had good results with carafoam?

I’ve been using it in my grain bills for my last 3 batches.

And here’s a shot of the 2nd batch fermenter with S-04

 

[marchuk96]

I’ve been using it in my grain bills for my last 3 batches.

View attachment 625215

And here’s a shot of the 2nd batch fermenter with S-04

View attachment 625216

So pretty!!![emoji7]...lol...looks great!!

 

[SRJHops]

have people found that it takes a few weeks for lower OG IPAs to start tasting good? I have found that if I start at or below 1.060, it takes time to taste good. If I start at 1.070 and go up, they taste good right away.

My OGs are always around 1.060, so I can't comment on higher - though curious why a higher one might be ready sooner?

I bottle, and mine peak after 4 or 5 weeks in the bottle.

 

[SanPancho]

Still messing with water. Still don’t feel like I have that fully dialed. Mostly CaSo4 but some NaCl and just started using more KCL. We’ll see. Messing with adding certain salts to the kettle as well.

You able to calculate the K ppm when using kcl? I dont recall my brunwater version having it. Would be nice to know for reference/notes.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

1 gram of KCl added to 1 gallon of water results in:

125.6 ppm Cl
138.5 ppm K

 

[Loud Brewing]

have people found that it takes a few weeks for lower OG IPAs to start tasting good? I have found that if I start at or below 1.060, it takes time to taste good. If I start at 1.070 and go up, they taste good right away.

I agree, part of that has to do with the ibu to gravity ratio, as well as other factors. Personally, I think this style shines at 8%+ so for me its quick turnover with great results.

 

[isomerization]

You able to calculate the K ppm when using kcl? I dont recall my brunwater version having it. Would be nice to know for reference/notes.

You should be able to use the value from NaCl, with 1.3x value for Na and 0.8x value for Cl

Edit: forgot to account for Cl mass in ratio

 

[stickyfinger]

I guess I need to drop the dryhop amount some or increase the sweet malts some on the lower OG ones. They just take awhile to come around. The higher OG ones taste great to me a few days after kegging. Must be the body and some extra sweetness standing up the hops. I should try adding just a touch of simple syrup to my low ABV ones to see if they improve. Seems like the hop character is just different too though.

My OGs are always around 1.060, so I can't comment on higher - though curious why a higher one might be ready sooner?

I bottle, and mine peak after 4 or 5 weeks in the bottle.

 

[Dgallo]

I guess I need to drop the dryhop amount some or increase the sweet malts some on the lower OG ones. They just take awhile to come around. The higher OG ones taste great to me a few days after kegging. Must be the body and some extra sweetness standing up the hops. I should try adding just a touch of simple syrup to my low ABV ones to see if they improve. Seems like the hop character is just different too though.

It’s usually hop particulates and polyphenols that your tasting with the hop bite or green flavor. Dropping your dry hop amounts or pushing them back to like 5/3 days before kegging will help. I would do that before upping the sweetness

 

[SanPancho]

1 gram of KCl added to 1 gallon of water results in:

125.6 ppm Cl
138.5 ppm K

Perfect. And what about any difference in pH from using Ca vs K? Something you should account for, or not really significant?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Perfect. And what about any difference in pH from using Ca vs K? Something you should account for, or not really significant?

K does not impact mash pH to any measurable degree.

There seems to be concern that at concentrations of 10 ppm and above it might hinder certain enzymes during the mash, but recent actual users of KCl have not (to my knowledge) reported any problems in this area. I don't know where this concern originated, or if there is any level of validity to it.

 

[Dgallo]

K does not impact mash pH to any measurable degree.

There seems to be concern that at concentrations of 10 ppm and above it might hinder certain enzymes during the mash, but recent actual users of KCl have not (to my knowledge) reported any problems in this area. I don't know where this concern originated, or if there is any level of validity to it.

Sounds like it might be better as a sparge addition versus mash to be safe

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Here's a link to an analysis of Tree House Julius, and Potassium is very high. I can't speak to how much of it is free and how much is bound though:

http://thirdleapbrew.com/technical/ward-labs-mineral-analysis-of-tree-house-julius/