New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[Andre3000]

Hands down, my favorite yeast for this style is Imperial Dryhop a/24

Damn. Last time I was at the LHBS I grabbed Citrus (=WLP644) because it sounded interesting. I should have grabbed the Dry Hop instead maybe.

 

[Dgallo]

Damn. Last time I was at the LHBS I grabbed Citrus (=WLP644) because it sounded interesting. I should have grabbed the Dry Hop instead maybe.

Dryhop is actual a yeast blend of Imperial citrus A20 and Barbarian A04. Citrus is great by itself. I use it in my kettle sours as the primary yeast and occasionally in NE IPA when I’m looking to up the orange note

 

[ttuato]

Dig this! Thanks! Here is my favorite part:

"...if we dry hop our beers under active fermentation (e.g. first
fermentation) will lead to the reduction of hop oils by:
- CO2 stripping (hop oils are very volatile)
- Masking (fermentation compounds may mask
the hop oil aroma)
- Adsorption (hop oils adsorbed by yeast membrane, which is removed later on)

However, if dry hopping is performed at the very end of the fermentation, where there is lower CO2
production (which kept within the tank) but yeast is still very active, the following benefits occur:
- Less CO2 stripping (more hop oils kept in the beer matrix)
- Reduction of dissolved oxygen (DO) by active yeast during dry hopping
- Ethanol presence (more hop oil solubility)
- Higher temperature (more solubility)
- Some fermentation left (mixing effect due to beer turbulence)
- Biotransformation"


Soooo, this clearly suggests I have been doing the biotrans addition too early. I usually do it at the end of Day 2 under high krausen.

I don't want to keep opening the fermenter to check the gravity...because I am too worried about oxygen. Does anyone have a good rule of thumb for guessing when fermentation is about to end? Right now I am using Juice, and it's still quite active at Day 4. So maybe just watch it and that will help me for next time? At the very least, I will move my biotrans addition to Day 4 or later for this yeast.

Another thing to consider about dry hopping during active fermentation is that it increases haze (polyphenol/protein) which can have a positive affect on flavor as the haze help keeps the nonpolar compounds in solution.

http://masterbrewerspodcast.com/104-the-hidden-secrets-of-new-england-ipa

Previously when I dryhopped during active ferm I would dump all, most, or half during this period then the rest after FG. I stopped because I became sensitive to the polyphenol taste (vegetal) and it seemed to oxidize more easily too. One tidbit from Janish BYO that I hadn’t considered before was to do only a small addition (1-2oz) during active fermentation to create more haze. This will give something for the non polar compounds to clings to from the FG dryhop (4-8oz) but will not overdo the polyphenol extraction (due to reduced contact time). I am trying this on my current batch. Will report back in a week or so.

 

[Andre3000]

Dryhop is actual a yeast blend of Imperial citrus A20 and Barbarian A04. Citrus is great by itself. I use it in my kettle sours as the primary yeast and occasionally in NE IPA when I’m looking to up the orange note

And as I understand it with Dry Hop you pitch at 68, free rise to 70-72, day 3 or so ramp to 76? If you say so! Same with Citrus? The only other yeast I've used that high is the Wyeast Saison 3724 and I think I finished it off at like 90 haha.

 

[Dgallo]

And as I understand it with Dry Hop you pitch at 68, free rise to 70-72, day 3 or so ramp to 76? If you say so! Same with Citrus? The only other yeast I've used that high is the Wyeast Saison 3724 and I think I finished it off at like 90 haha.

Correct. Citrus by itself has a range to like 80-82. I’ve never pushed the envelope but I’ve read on here that people went closer to 85 and got clean orange flavors

 

[ttuato]

On friday (hopefully) im going to be making a west coast style single hop IPA with hbc 692 ,a new exp variety which is the daughter of Sabro...I've read it is intensly fruity citrus with some similar charecterstics to Sabro and with very high oil content...
HBC 692 is an aroma hop for whirlpool and dry hopping additions as well, and it delivers a high intensity of hop aroma well suited for IPAs and hop-forward beers. HBC 692 exhibits grapefruit, floral, stone fruit, potpourri, woody, cream, pine, and resinous notes that are great for lots of beer styles....very excited to try it out...I'm using 8 oz total for a 5.5 gal. batch so we will see what she brings to the table...will report back

Stan H was giddy about this hop in one of his newletters. Looking forward to the follow up.

 

[marchuk96]

Stan H was giddy about this hop in one of his newletters. Looking forward to the follow up.

Right!!! What was weird was I made the decision to try this hop based off the descriptors and its relationship to Sabro a few weeks ago...ordered it and then like a week later I ended up stumbling upon the podcast with him and the refrence to it and also happens to be the one I posted a few pages back which was about getting tropical flavors out of hops as a response to someone else's post about what I believe was boiling hops...I'm excited and will report on friday how they are out of the bag and in wort...def give a final review once beer is finished a ready to drink... Could neo mexicanas be the new new Zealand hops??

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Even Target has some neomex parentage...

 

[Dgallo]

Even Target has some neomex parentage...

I don’t think he was claiming they are new... I think he was just saying they are gunna be the next big thing

 

[marchuk96]

I don’t think he was claiming they are new... I think he was just saying they are gunna be the next big thing

SACKLY!!!

 

[NickC]

Anyone here have experience with London Fog yeast? Trying it for the first time on an upcoming batch this weekend. Have only used 1318 or Omega DIPA before.

 

[Satedbrewer]

London fog was alright, didn't blow my socks off or anything, still prefer 1318 or dryhop from imperial

 

[SRJHops]

Another thing to consider about dry hopping during active fermentation is that it increases haze (polyphenol/protein) which can have a positive affect on flavor as the haze help keeps the nonpolar compounds in solution.

http://masterbrewerspodcast.com/104-the-hidden-secrets-of-new-england-ipa

Previously when I dryhopped during active ferm I would dump all, most, or half during this period then the rest after FG. I stopped because I became sensitive to the polyphenol taste (vegetal) and it seemed to oxidize more easily too. One tidbit from Janish BYO that I hadn’t considered before was to do only a small addition (1-2oz) during active fermentation to create more haze. This will give something for the non polar compounds to clings to from the FG dryhop (4-8oz) but will not overdo the polyphenol extraction (due to reduced contact time). I am trying this on my current batch. Will report back in a week or so.

I've been thinking about your excellent advice over the past few days... It seems to me that a good approach might even be to TRIPLE dry hop. Use a small addition on Day 2 or so during high krausen, then another small one near the end of fermentation. Then do the third/final dry hop a day or two before bottling (or when kegging, etc.).

I say this because a lot of folks are dry hopping at high krausen (early fermentation,) and seem to be getting some biotransformation. (I listened to a podcast yesterday where Mike Tonsmeire said he usually dry hops on Day 2 or so.) But I also think the info regarding hop oils being stripped during early fermentation is compelling. Eager to hear your results on your test.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I've been thinking about your excellent advice over the past few days... It seems to me that a good approach might even be to TRIPLE dry hop. Use a small addition on Day 2 or so during high krausen, then another small one near the end of fermentation. Then do the third/final dry hop a day or two before bottling (or when kegging, etc.).

I think you're going to start running into the law of diminishing returns. Dry hopping twice(once during fermentation, again after yeast is dumped) will probably max out what you're going to squeeze into your beer. I know a lot of commercial breweries do two rounds on their super hoppy IPAs.

 

[NickC]

London fog was alright, didn't blow my socks off or anything, still prefer 1318 or dryhop from imperial

Lacking esters? Dropped clear? Or what didn’t you like about it as much? Did it ferment as quickly as 1318?

 

[Satedbrewer]

Lacking esters? Dropped clear? Or what didn’t you like about it as much? Did it ferment as quickly as 1318?

Lacking esters fermented at 69-70f, held its haze but also held alot of yeast particulate even after cold crashing, fermented pretty identical to 1318. I've used it a few times usually around 80% attenuation

1318 and dryhop are much more expressive and clean up in the keg much quicker, just wasn't overly impressed with it.

I've got two more packets in fridge that I plan to use at some point with @Dgallo fermentation schedule to see if I can get more esters out of it

 

[SRJHops]

I think you're going to start running into the law of diminishing returns. Dry hopping twice(once during fermentation, again after yeast is dumped) will probably max out what you're going to squeeze into your beer. I know a lot of commercial breweries do two rounds on their super hoppy IPAs.

Perhaps, though I think I heard Tonsmeire say that some breweries continuously dry hop during fermentation? We've all heard of Dogfish Head continuously hopping on the hot side for their 120 Minute, but I've never heard of anyone doing that on the cold side. Hey, Dogfish, I just invented your next beer! 14 Day Continuously Dry Hopped NEIPA!

I guess the question is whether there is any benefit to dry hopping during early fermentation vs toward the end? Is there anything about a more vigorous fermentation that is helpful to bring out flavor, even knowing that some hop oils will be stripped? If not, then it seems to make sense to wait until fermentation has settled down a bit, as suggested by that Lallemand pdf.

I think the good news is that it's a pretty easy thing to test, and the resulting beers are both likely to be tasty!

 

[NickC]

Perhaps, though I think I heard Tonsmeire say that some breweries continuously dry hop during fermentation? We've all heard of Dogfish Head continuously hopping on the hot side for their 120 Minute, but I've never heard of anyone doing that on the cold side. Hey, Dogfish, I just invented your next beer! 14 Day Continuously Dry Hopped NEIPA!

I guess the question is whether there is any benefit to dry hopping during early fermentation vs toward the end? Is there anything about a more vigorous fermentation that is helpful to bring out flavor, even knowing that some hop oils will be stripped? If not, then it seems to make sense to wait until fermentation has settled down a bit, as suggested by that Lallemand pdf.

I think the good news is that it's a pretty easy thing to test, and the resulting beers are both likely to be tasty!

I think there was some discussion about this a few pages back. Dry hoping during fermentation and after fermentation provide different characteristics of the hop. I just remember the thinking was that after ferm hop provides more of that out of that bag aroma which is what I’m after.

 

[SRJHops]

I think there was some discussion about this a few pages back. Dry hoping during fermentation and after fermentation provide different characteristics of the hop. I just remember the thinking was that after ferm hop provides more of that out of that bag aroma which is what I’m after.

Yes, like a lot of homebrewers, I have been doing double dry hopping for this style, once during active fermentation and once before bottling. I know some people now skip the biotrans step, but I think there is enough evidence that it does work for some hops. But another charge 1-2 days before bottling or at kegging seems like a best practice for sure.

What I am exploring is when to dry hop during active fermentation. Until I read that Lallemand info, I had never really thought about the timing of the charge during active fermentation. I had learned that it should be done during high krausen on day 1-2, but I now think it makes sense to wait until it starts to die down (on day 4 or 5, depending on the yeast). Or, consider two charges during active fermentation, maybe?

 

[marchuk96]

Lacking esters fermented at 69-70f, held its haze but also held alot of yeast particulate even after cold crashing, fermented pretty identical to 1318. I've used it a few times usually around 80% attenuation

1318 and dryhop are much more expressive and clean up in the keg much quicker, just wasn't overly impressed with it.

I've got two more packets in fridge that I plan to use at some point with @Dgallo fermentation schedule to see if I can get more esters out of it

I've typically see dry hop just chew threw beers...and I think ester production is most important the first 2 days of fermentation...I will pitch at like 70 and then just let it do its thing...my house is about 68 ambient so this works great for me to just allow it to do its thing the first 2 days and free rise up to about 72 - 73..then I just hold it there with some wet tees wrapped around fermonster...my last beer kegged today was 90% done at the end of the day of day 2...from there I reached 1 point below f.g(3 points more than day 2 reading) after a week...so as you can see that initial temp range from pitch to day 2-3 i think is the most important for esters

 

[Dgallo]

Final review on the Oat Cream NEIPA I brewed kegged 3.5 weeks ago. The beer lost the remainder of its green character at about the 2.5 week mark, which is about 1.5 weeks longer than my typical. I believe this is due to an increase in the protein/polyphenol reaction using the higher oat grain bill. Aroma was solid, stone fruit pairing from the Medusa and yeast strain. Flavor was alright, less juicy then the smell. Head retention was poor and bothered me that dissipated so quickly. However it had a great look and is full bodied and soft. Def the softest beer I’ve made. Oddly enough it’ had a nice slight dryness at the finish which was baffling with the grain bill, mash temp, and yeast selection. Overall I enjoyed it but will certainly adjust it slightly.

 

[marchuk96]

Yes, like a lot of homebrewers, I have been doing double dry hopping for this style, once during active fermentation and once before bottling. I know some people now skip the biotrans step, but I think there is enough evidence that it does work for some hops. But another charge 1-2 days before bottling or at kegging seems like a best practice for sure.

What I am exploring is when to dry hop during active fermentation. Until I read that Lallemand info, I had never really thought about the timing of the charge during active fermentation. I had learned that it should be done during high krausen on day 1-2, but I now think it makes sense to wait until it starts to die down (on day 4 or 5, depending on the yeast). Or, consider two charges during active fermentation, maybe?

My 2 cents...don't worry about bio time...let it do its thing and dry hop as late as possible...if you want out of the bag aroma and flavor go this route...if you want something different do the bio route...maybe day 2 and then 3...idk...not a huge fan of bio...I've had better success going the late route..its my personal preference..

 

[marchuk96]

Final review on the Oat Cream NEIPA I brewed kegged 3.5 weeks ago. The beer lost the remainder of its green character at about the 2.5 week mark, which is about 1.5 weeks longer than my typical. I believe this is due to an increase in the protein/polyphenol reaction using the higher oat grain bill. Aroma was solid, stone fruit pairing from the Medusa and yeast strain. Flavor was alright, less juicy then the smell. Head retention was poor and bothered me that dissipated so quickly. However it had a great look and is full bodied and soft. Def the softest beer I’ve made. Oddly enough it’ had a nice slight dryness at the finish which was baffling with the grain bill, mash temp, and yeast selection. Overall I enjoyed it but will certainly adjust it slightly. View attachment 623847

I also experienced poor head retention going the malted oats route...and used 2
Lbs less....I tried to counter it with flaked grains but no luck... So from here its either 2 lbs malted oats or 1..I'm thinking 2 but I guess ya never know

 

[SRJHops]

I also experienced poor head retention going the malted oats route...and used 2
Lbs less....I tried to counter it with flaked grains but no luck... So from here its either 2 lbs malted oats or 1..I'm thinking 2 but I guess ya never know

I've got a recipe (grain bill below) with 3 lbs malted oats fermenting right now. But I also used a pound of carapils and flaked barley. I'll report back...

5 gallons:
7 lbs 2-row
3 lbs malted oats
2 lbs white wheat malt
1 lbs carapils
1 lbs flaked barley

 

[couchsending]

7 weeks in the keg. Actually smells better now than when it was fresh. No wheat/oats/chit, fermentation DH. No clearing, no fall off, etc.

question the narrative

 

[Andre3000]

Sipping a 1098 version right now. Not overly thrilled with it. I changed too many variables. Did the off yeast dry hop and this thing finished higher than I'm used to at 1.013 @ 5.8% ABV. It almost tastes like diacetyl but I did the test (which I've NEVER had to do) and it think hot one mostly smelled like alcohol and not buttery. Hops also aren't the freshest. Also I've recently moved and I didn't bring my RO system but apparently Seattle has "the best tap water". I might get another one haha. My starters out of the tap taste so bitter.

View attachment 623914 7 weeks in the keg. Actually smells better now than when it was fresh. No wheat/oats/chit, fermentation DH. No clearing, no fall off, etc.

question the narrative

Actually, regarding this, I just listened to a CB&B podcast ( https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/craft-beer-brewing-magazine-podcast/e/60015321 ) and he's pretty adamant that whirlpool is the way to go for long term preservation of aroma.

Care to share your recipe / process?

 

[1bottlerocket]

View attachment 623914 7 weeks in the keg. Actually smells better now than when it was fresh. No wheat/oats/chit, fermentation DH. No clearing, no fall off, etc.

question the narrative

Wow! That looks super.

I am getting ready for my second attempt at this style. My first batch had a great hop aroma but the taste was just okay. I used DME and a partial mash.

I would also be interested to hear your process and all the particulars if you care to share. Thanks everyone for the great reading!

 

[Sbe2]

View attachment 623914 7 weeks in the keg. Actually smells better now than when it was fresh. No wheat/oats/chit, fermentation DH. No clearing, no fall off, etc.

question the narrative

And here comes @couchsending from on top of the cage with a huge elbow drop. Haha

The beer looks great, can’t wait to read the follow up!

 

[couchsending]

This is really no different than a recipe for say a West Coast style IPA. 2row, carafoam, Carahell or Honey Malt. The difference is yeast and water profile. Certain English Ale yeasts just don’t clear if they’re dry hopped after fermentation. This same beer made with Chico and a different water profile would probably clear. The yeast had flocced quite hard when the dry hops were added to this beer, it had cleared quite a bit. The more “stuff” in solution when you dry hop, the more “stuff” to drag down the oils you want in the finished beer.

This is yeast harvested from cans of Crooked Stave IPA.

I’m a pretty firm believer in the long rest at 160-162 for most beers. I think it really helps with foam, mouthfeel, fullness.


Still messing with water. Still don’t feel like I have that fully dialed. Mostly CaSo4 but some NaCl and just started using more KCL. We’ll see. Messing with adding certain salts to the kettle as well.

This beer is especially murky as it was dry hopped with a massive dose of Australian hops. Galaxy, Vic Secret, and a ton of Ella. It took a little longer to become more drinkable cause of all the polyphenols in those hops.

 

[nick sekerak]

Final review on the Oat Cream NEIPA I brewed kegged 3.5 weeks ago. The beer lost the remainder of its green character at about the 2.5 week mark, which is about 1.5 weeks longer than my typical. I believe this is due to an increase in the protein/polyphenol reaction using the higher oat grain bill. Aroma was solid, stone fruit pairing from the Medusa and yeast strain. Flavor was alright, less juicy then the smell. Head retention was poor and bothered me that dissipated so quickly. However it had a great look and is full bodied and soft. Def the softest beer I’ve made. Oddly enough it’ had a nice slight dryness at the finish which was baffling with the grain bill, mash temp, and yeast selection. Overall I enjoyed it but will certainly adjust it slightly. View attachment 623847

NOw that is a nice color, what SRM are you calling it?

 

[Dgallo]

NOw that is a nice color, what SRM are you calling it?

Thanks brother. Between 4-5 most likely

 

[1bottlerocket]

Both these beers look super awesome. Dgallo is helping with a grain bill and process, (Thanks!) and I am getting ready to give it a go. I am super excited. Will post details.

I realize this isn't the place for discussing, but I am also in the process of buying some new gear. I am planning on starting another thread in the equipment section. The plan is to go to a 3 vessel system for my first all-grain.

 

[NickC]

I’m a pretty firm believer in the long rest at 160-162 for most beers. I think it really helps with foam, mouthfeel, fullness.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Dgallo]

Both these beers look super awesome. Dgallo is helping with a grain bill and process, (Thanks!) and I am getting ready to give it a go. I am super excited. Will post details.

I realize this isn't the place for discussing, but I am also in the process of buying some new gear. I am planning on starting another thread in the equipment section. The plan is to go to a 3 vessel system for my first all-grain.

Im learning there are so many ways to skin a cat and come out with a delicious ipa. Different hops/hopping schedules, grain bills, yeast selections, water profile.. list goes on. American IPAs lead to the introduction of west coast, west coast IPAs lead to NEIPAS and now people are continue to experiment with NEIPAs, now milkshake and oat cream Ipas are becoming popular. Try some solid commercial versions and then attempt to brew them to see what your preference is. As long as your producing A solid beer, who cares how your doing it

 

[JohnConnor]

This is really no different than a recipe for say a West Coast style IPA. 2row, carafoam, Carahell or Honey Malt. The difference is yeast and water profile. Certain English Ale yeasts just don’t clear if they’re dry hopped after fermentation. This same beer made with Chico and a different water profile would probably clear. The yeast had flocced quite hard when the dry hops were added to this beer, it had cleared quite a bit. The more “stuff” in solution when you dry hop, the more “stuff” to drag down the oils you want in the finished beer.

This is yeast harvested from cans of Crooked Stave IPA.

I’m a pretty firm believer in the long rest at 160-162 for most beers. I think it really helps with foam, mouthfeel, fullness.


Still messing with water. Still don’t feel like I have that fully dialed. Mostly CaSo4 but some NaCl and just started using more KCL. We’ll see. Messing with adding certain salts to the kettle as well.

This beer is especially murky as it was dry hopped with a massive dose of Australian hops. Galaxy, Vic Secret, and a ton of Ella. It took a little longer to become more drinkable cause of all the polyphenols in those hops.

I second the alpha rest. I believe (and maybe it's confirmation bias) that my beers improved markedly when adding a rest at 162ish. Head for days. Perfect body.

I've become a huge fan of NaCl for my chloride addition. I always get this horrible minerally taste when I use a lot of CaCl. I don't get anything like that with NaCl. Plus, it's like adding salt to food. It amps up the flavor. I've gone up to about 100 ppm of Na without it tasting salty. At 100 ppm, if I really look for it, you do get a hint of salt on the tip of the tongue. But nothing overpowering.

 

[SRJHops]

I second the alpha rest. I believe (and maybe it's confirmation bias) that my beers improved markedly when adding a rest at 162ish. Head for days. Perfect body.

I've become a huge fan of NaCl for my chloride addition. I always get this horrible minerally taste when I use a lot of CaCl. I don't get anything like that with NaCl. Plus, it's like adding salt to food. It amps up the flavor. I've gone up to about 100 ppm of Na without it tasting salty. At 100 ppm, if I really look for it, you do get a hint of salt on the tip of the tongue. But nothing overpowering.

Appreciate the tip on the NaCl. I got some mineral taste in my 146 ppm Cl brew using CaCl. It did mellow out and disappear after a week or two, but I might try the NaCl if I taste it again...

 

[Genuine]

I’ve been happy with 160ish of Chlorides and 40’s Of sulfates with a touch of NaCl to finish up the rest of the chloride levels. Just brewed another batch today and I think the Raw wheat I’m using is really effecting my efficiency. I milled it three times by itself to see if that would help but I hit damn close the same numbers I did last brew day and I also did a 75 minute mash this time.

 

[ttuato]

Lacking esters fermented at 69-70f, held its haze but also held alot of yeast particulate even after cold crashing, fermented pretty identical to 1318. I've used it a few times usually around 80% attenuation

1318 and dryhop are much more expressive and clean up in the keg much quicker, just wasn't overly impressed with it.

I've got two more packets in fridge that I plan to use at some point with @Dgallo fermentation schedule to see if I can get more esters out of it

If I am not mistaken London Fog is in the same family as Conan. I believe that Conan is an oddbird for the english yeast famliy in that low temps are needed for ideal esters instead if high temps like 1318. According to several posts on the probrewer forum, the temp needed for Conan to throw stone fruit is 63 and underpitched at 40B. Accordingly that is my go to schedule for Conan (A04 Barbarian) and works for me as described on probrewer. (To be fair though I have never fermented it beyond 65 for day 1-4)

 

[couchsending]

Scored an 11lb bag of hand selected Citra from one of the West Coast’s better hop forward breweries... let’s just say it’s not a level playing field. I thought I had some decent Citra before... not even close.

 

[stickyfinger]

Scored an 11lb bag of hand selected Citra from one of the West Coast’s better hop forward breweries... let’s just say it’s not a level playing field. I thought I had some decent Citra before... not even close.

that’s ******* depressing